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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider

[X] Ranging far ahead of the convoy

[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
SuperSonicSound said:
We rarely used the Night prowler when going through the skaven clan areas in K8P most of it was Mathildes pure grey magic, but tbh grey seers aren't common so I think that's fine.
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And our gray magic is much better now. Didn't even know invisibility back then.
Ericwinter said:
I'm honestly hoping we might find a dragon egg in the market.
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We lack the skills to tell a real dragon egg from a fake. I expect many goods in this market will be counterfeits. It is after all a black market. We should not buy anything we don't have at least some expertise in.
 
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I want to take a moment to ask everyone to consider voting for Ruprecht:

[ ] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger

I think he might be in a pretty bad state of mind right now.

The plan to fortify the pass was one he supported, presumably expecting a successful and glorious fight against Daemons. It was, but not because of the Winter Wolves.

Not only did they freeze up in confusion at the sight of the pink Slayers, they failed to reinforce the fortifications after the friendly Slayers were all dead, and nearly routed entirely after a Daemonette faceplanted in their midst. He had to personally kill the Daemonette and browbeat his Knights into reinforcing the Dwarves. The most glorious thing they did that fight was the countercharge at the end, which only happened after the Leader Daemon was dead, and that was mostly running down fleeing daemons. Not a grand tale of heroism at any point.

Then his aid scouting the Karak was turned down in favor of the Rangers and some Wizards, for the entirely sensible reason that they have better night vision.

I am guessing he's pretty angry; at himself, at the daemons, at his own knights. Just generally angry at having his dream swept out from under him in the very first engagement. Keeping going in such a situation without throwing yourself into increasingly dangerous tactics or taking it out on your own soldiers is something Mathilde is... personally somewhat familiar with, though not in exactly the same way.

I think her perspective on things would be good for him.
 
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
Alratan said:
Or she could piss them off and alienate them, for all you know. Where does the guarantee that the rather mediocre Diplomacy Mathilde is certain to succeed with her social overtures?
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Well, it would be very surprising, because in all the social rounds we've ever had -- from the original expedition, to K8P, to this expedition -- that has literally never been a result of Mathilde making a social overture. We aren't going to become a bosom friend in one round, but we always get something of value. So I'd say that it's a very bad argument to say "well, socialing X might piss them off and leave things worse off than before" when it's never happened.
Alratan said:
Talking of moral quandaries, Mathilde would probably find it much harder to dispose of Borek if it becomes necessary if she get to know him too well.
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This is very cart-before-the-horse thinking. Our goal isn't "kill Borek," our goal is "get the most success we can out of KD and get as many people as possible home safely." If we have a better understanding of him, we have options for doing that which aren't murder.
 
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider

I'm ambivalent about Uzkulak, somewhat against combes and strongly against two sidequests in one turn.
 
picklepikkl said:
Well, it would be very surprising, because in all the social rounds we've ever had -- from the original expedition, to K8P, to this expedition -- that has literally never been a result of Mathilde making a social overture. We aren't going to become a bosom friend in one round, but we always get something of value. So I'd say that it's a very bad argument to say "well, socialing X might piss them off and leave things worse off than before" when it's never happened.
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As far as I can remember this is true, that said I don't believe your claim that we're guaranteed to become closer to them is true. All we're guaranteed is to learn a bit more about about how they're likely to react about things. We could do that sure, and it has value. On the other hand we could do something no one else here has the capabilities to accomplish and simply either talk to the guy later or just rely on what Hubert tells us if it becomes necessary. Who should know him much much better than we're ever likely to no matter how many actions we spend on him. While being a better diplomat besides.
 
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LightLan said:
It's a real good thing we don't have more secrets that could get us killed. :V
Don't mind the Ranaldian Empress that we know isn't a Haupt-Andersen. :whistle:
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Honestly, I do not think that can get Mathilde killed at this point. The Grey college would understand our reasoning (every noble has an agenda anyway and hers is probably less harmful/more beneficial for the Empire than mosts) and the Emperor would look at our great deed and our relationship with the Dawi, say "meh, you knew nothing" before even asking us and pointedly ignore us as an actor for all this to avoid the political clusterfuck, if nothing else. (and no, keeping that secret violates no oath, except maaaaaaybe our loyalty to the emperor.)

We are at the point where even the Liber Mortis is not a guaranteed death sentence, although that one is too spicy to risk and carries the risk of death or imprisonment regardless.

Andres110 said:
Valid interpretation but it was intended by the devs to be literal for reasons that are obscure.
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Huh, probably to balance or flavour rogues?

Derpmind said:
"It'll be horrible, but well-written" is an argument I an extremely predisposed against. I've read only one quest where that argument was used to vote for a horrible option. But in that one instance it resulted in well written horribleness, something that was very much significantly worse than it would have been if I'd read a similar scene by a less skilled author. I really, really, really never want to read anything like that ever again.

I make no judgement on what BoneyM would write if the Uzkulak option wins. And BoneyM has proven to be good and not-horrible when handling morally dark and painful things. But on top of simply not wanting to see any scenes of that location, because that same argument is being used again I can't in good conscience vote for that option.
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Now I am curious about what quest that was.

Alratan said:
Talking of moral quandaries, Mathilde would probably find it much harder to dispose of Borek if it becomes necessary if she get to know him too well.

I think that's the thing she'd have much more of a long term issue with than having to prioritise her mission over the liberty of some slaves she's never met before.
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I thought the plan was never to dispose him? Just usurp leadership if he goes slayer?
 
MooseHowl said:
I want to take a moment to ask everyone to consider voting for Ruprecht:

[ ] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger

I think he might be in a pretty bad state of mind right now.

The plan to fortify the pass was one he supported, presumably expecting a successful and glorious fight against Daemons. It was, but not because of the Winter Wolves.

Not only did they freeze up in confusion at the sight of the pink Slayers, they failed to reinforce the fortifications after the friendly Slayers were all dead, and nearly routed entirely after a Daemonette faceplanted in their midst. He had to personally kill the Daemonette and browbeat his Knights into reinforcing the Dwarves. The most glorious thing they did that fight was the countercharge at the end, which only happened after the Leader Daemon was dead, and that was mostly running down fleeing daemons. Not a grand tale of heroism at any point.

Then his aid scouting the Karak was turned down in favor of the Rangers and some Wizards, for the entirely sensible reason that they have better night vision.

I am guessing he's pretty angry; at himself, at the daemons, at his own knights. Just generally angry at having his dream swept out from under him in the very first engagement. Keeping going in such a situation without throwing yourself into increasingly dangerous tactics or taking it out on your own soldiers is something Mathilde is... personally somewhat familiar with, though not in exactly the same way.

I think her perspective on things would be good for him.
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Ruprecht personally held the defensive line together. He both has plenty to be proud of and he's a big boy, he doesn't need Mathilde to hold his hand. This is also something else that someone like Johann, with notably superior Diplomacy, would be much better at than Mathilde.

picklepikkl said:
Well, it would be very surprising, because in all the social rounds we've ever had -- from the original expedition, to K8P, to this expedition -- that has literally never been a result of Mathilde making a social overture. We aren't going to become a bosom friend in one round, but we always get something of value. So I'd say that it's a very bad argument to say "well, socialing X might piss them off and leave things worse off than before" when it's never happened.
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The K8P socials were guaranteed to have no mechanical effect on the rest of the quest, so could neither piss people off nor make them more friendly. They just showed us things that would otherwise happen off-screen, IIRC.

Mathilde has also never permanently died in combat. That doesn't mean that if we're voting to pick a fight then we should think it's impossible just because it never had before.

picklepikkl said:
This is very cart-before-the-horse thinking. Our goal isn't "kill Borek," our goal is "get the most success we can out of KD and get as many people as possible home safely." If we have a better understanding of him, we have options for doing that which aren't murder.
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If, if, we have a better understanding of him, we may have other options. We also may not, and we're simply stuck with having to remove someone while understanding what is driving them to make decisions that we consider unacceptably dangerous.

Disposing of Borek remains one necessary contingency if his Driven trait drives him off the deep end.
 
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Also, @BoneyM , the articles of magic claim that we hold obeissance to the Emperor and the Supreme Patriarch above our college specific oaths (the articles too, as those are above the Emperor who is above the Patriarch, but that is irrelevant to my question). Does that mean that the Emperor and/or Supreme Patriarch can rescind our oaths? Does that mean that the supreme patriarch can rescind his own oaths? Strict reading of the Articles means that yes, they can, although I imagine it is one of these political cans of worms nobody wants to open, and for good reason, thus it is not actually something that is ever done.
 
storryeater said:
Also, @BoneyM , the articles of magic claim that we hold obeissance to the Emperor and the Supreme Patriarch above our college specific oaths (the articles too, as those are above the Emperor who is above the Patriarch, but that is irrelevant to my question). Does that mean that the Emperor and/or Supreme Patriarch can rescind our oaths? Does that mean that the supreme patriarch can rescind his own oaths? Strict reading of the Articles means that yes, they can, although I imagine it is one of these political cans of worms nobody wants to open, and for good reason, thus it is not actually something that is ever done.
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We had a clear example of college specific oaths getting trumped when we were knighted. Being a knight required enough income to upkeep a steed and arms, an Elector Count outranked the Grey Patriarch, so a legal exception to the oath of poverty was allowed for that purpose. Of course that said some oaths are looked at more strictly than others.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
We had a clear example of college specific oaths getting trumped when we were knighted. Being a knight required enough income to upkeep a steed and arms, an Elector Count outranked the Grey Patriarch, so a legal exception to the oath of poverty was allowed for that purpose. Of course that said some oaths are looked at more strictly than others.
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Eh, that was not exactly an oath being trumped, as it was legalese dinstiction of roles.
 
storryeater said:
Eh, that was not exactly an oath being trumped, as it was legalese dinstiction of roles.
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Having reread the section it was slightly different then I remembered, but the legalese distinction is really more from face saving on the part of the Grey college then where the exemption arose from.

BoneyM said:
There's a sudden silence at the table, and everyone exchanges thoughtful looks. "Hmm," Van Hal says, eventually. "Knighting a Wizard... can we do this? Anton?"

"Precedent's entirely on your side," he says with a grin, seemingly delighted to welcome you into noble ranks. "Dieter IV's open sale of knighthoods went unchallenged, after all. You can knight anyone you damn well please. As for the titles, they'd exist side-by-side. The Knightly Orders are technically monastical organizations, but noble and ecclesiastical titles are held together."

"Wilhelmina?"

"I could bundle up some of the land seized from the League and make it a token estate, it'd just require your signature."

"Kasmir?"

Kasmir closes his eyes thinks for a moment, before reciting from memory. "Article XI: All Magisters may expect to receive accommodation, benefits, respect, and fair treatment, as would befit any noble of Sigmar's Holy Empire, while in the employ of the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire. If you say her conduct is such that 'fair treatment' would be to be knighted, none can gainsay you."

"Gustav?"

He looks bewildered at what is happening, but rallies. "Well, the law does say that a Knight must have an estate from which they draw the income necessary to maintain their arms, armour, and retinue. If that would take precedence over the customs of her Order..."

Kasmir chimes in again. "Article I: The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; the laws and ideals of their Order is fourth in order of priority. Article III: Every Magister of said Colleges must adhere to the laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire."

"Well, there you go. Law of the Empire comes first, rules of her Order second. Doesn't get clearer than that."

Van Hal smiles. "Then, Mathilde, you will have your knighthood. Pick a date, we'll hold the ceremony then."
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storryeater said:
Huh, probably to balance or flavour rogues?
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Fantasy RPG rogues archetypically carry daggers and the devs really wanted to be standard fantasy in this area. Same reason why in 2e, armour interferes with magic not because the ghur or chamon they attract interferes with casting with other winds, but because it makes it harder to wave your arms around. (The wargame was worse; wizards didn't wear armour because the solidity of armour made it "too real" and excess reality interfered with magic...never mind that the Lore of Metal was a thing.) In Divided Loyalties, all armour interferes with magic, but for wind-related reasons: metal armour has leather straps which attract ghur and messes up Lore of Metal spells; leather armour is treated with chemicals and such during the tanning process which messes with the ghur it'd normally attract. But I digress. Standard fantasy rogues carried daggers so the devs made Warhammer rogues carry daggers.
 
you know what, I'm just gonna do this

[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Journeyman Cyrston von Danling
[X] Journeywoman Alexandra Kohler
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
 
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[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about

Jyn Ryvia said:
Because that's not interesting?

Non of the side quest will have 'nothing'

To get meta, their point is to tempt.to use up resources. So even trusting the thread to back out when we are running low, the more we do early, the less we can do late

I would rather wait until we are deeper then blowing your load on all the early hitter.
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It's worth noting that our previous example of a side mission type deal was essentially "go and look around", which we did. That was then followed up with a decision point, with options to poke the thing some more as well as the option of saying "Not my job. Toodles!" and moving on.

It's highly likely that that's basically going to be the same formula of how it works for the possibilities on the table - we go, we get a write up, and then we get a decision point (buy something from a list, poke around in the secret spaces, lead a slave revolt, return without getting any more involved, etc).

Looking at potential options isn't going to cost the Expedition (except in opportunity cost) unless we fuck up stealth at the combes, which is highly unlikely.

Simon_Jester said:
Like, I'm not saying the dwarves would start ostracizing us.

But it'd be a sour note.
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There's not going to be a sour note in our relationship just for going to Uzkulak. We're a Loremaster - going places and poking around there being nosy is literally in our job description, and starting obviously suicidal fights with enemies is only expected from Slayers.

They might get pissy about any deals we may or may not make there, which we should remember to take into account should we need to make those decisions, but walking into Uzkulak alone isn't going to cause any issues.
 
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ReImagined said:
The thread perception that murdering Borek was ever on the table is baffling to me.
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It much less about killing Borek, and more about keeping Borek from damning the Expedition if things goes wrong at Karak Dum, or even before hand, and us stepping in if he goes Slayer/dies from a stupid choice.

Now, as we see more of him, the danger has lessen, but still there.
 
MooseHowl said:
I want to take a moment to ask everyone to consider voting for Ruprecht:

[ ] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger

I think he might be in a pretty bad state of mind right now.

The plan to fortify the pass was one he supported, presumably expecting a successful and glorious fight against Daemons. It was, but not because of the Winter Wolves.

Not only did they freeze up in confusion at the sight of the pink Slayers, they failed to reinforce the fortifications after the friendly Slayers were all dead, and nearly routed entirely after a Daemonette faceplanted in their midst. He had to personally kill the Daemonette and browbeat his Knights into reinforcing the Dwarves. The most glorious thing they did that fight was the countercharge at the end, which only happened after the Leader Daemon was dead, and that was mostly running down fleeing daemons. Not a grand tale of heroism at any point.

Then his aid scouting the Karak was turned down in favor of the Rangers and some Wizards, for the entirely sensible reason that they have better night vision.

I am guessing he's pretty angry; at himself, at the daemons, at his own knights. Just generally angry at having his dream swept out from under him in the very first engagement. Keeping going in such a situation without throwing yourself into increasingly dangerous tactics or taking it out on your own soldiers is something Mathilde is... personally somewhat familiar with, though not in exactly the same way.

I think her perspective on things would be good for him.
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You're not allowed to make such an excellent post calling for people to vote for the option that'll knock something I want to do (the Combe) off the list, that's basically cheating.
 
Well not it seams like Borek has the option to win alongside Snorri and Gotrek, so I´m returning to my old vote

[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Jyn Ryvia on Dec 20, 2020 at 7:29 PM, finished with 698 posts and 189 votes.
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1st place is unassailable, but 2nd through 7th are only 12 votes apart.

I'll be honest: I'd be totally fine losing the Light choir this turn. I know it sounds crazy, but I am 100% OK letting Horstmann manage that situation. He's said that he's on it (so we know it's not going to languish even if we don't do something about it, which isn't true for other social options), and being a Hysh wizard he has better groundwork to interact with them. I'd much rather talk to expedition leadership than check in on Barbitus.
 
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[x] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
 
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