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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Idea: what if Mathilde buys slaves to release from the Chaos dwarfs!

With luck we could find elves or dawi to rescue from the clutches of Chaos factions slave trade.
 
Klaus said:
I am looking at the greater context, and the greater context is that we have been told, in character, that neither of those groups will want to pick a fight with a group as large and well armed as ours and they would have to go out of their way to do so whereas Karak Vlag was perfectly positioned to ambush us and completely unavoidable.
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This was our expectation about how things were likely to go when we started

BoneyM said:
"Our route will take us through High Pass, across the Zorn Uzkul, through the Great Steppes, and into the outer reaches of the Chaos Wastes. High Pass should be thawed and is being watched by the Dwarves, so it should be uneventful. Zorn Uzkul is absolutely unfriendly territory, but the local hostiles live underground and will only pick a fight if they're sure they'll win, so I like our chances of getting through without incident. The part of the Great Steppes we'll be travelling through is Kurgan territory, with our route mostly going through Dolgan territory. We've struck a deal with them, but I wouldn't bet my life on them sticking to it. As for the Chaos Wastes, no telling what we'll find there, but we're not going too far in and we shouldn't be there too long.
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We thought high pass would be uneventful, we were wrong, we thought Zorn Uzkul would probably be without incident. It might be so or it might be wrong as well. There's no guarantees, and the cost of a single action to check in seems pretty low, even disregarding other potential benefits.
 
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[X] Asarnil the Dragonlord
[X] Deathfang
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Yes, voting to keep a skaven locked up for the rest of their live is in humane: but Mathy murders for a living, and frankly the only other option in universe was to break his neck and dump him in the river.
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May I say that, this at least, is not bad if you ascribe to utilitarianism, because the world being as it is, it is the best outcome.
 
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
 
NSMS said:
While I'd certainly want to burn the place down, this would be neither the time nor place for it. My argument is basically we should only go there if that's our intent, and right now it's obviously not going to be.
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Yes it's certainly your argument, but it doesn't hold merit. There's a lot of good reasons to visit these places that aren't "To burn it down immediately" I know you don't want to visit it because you think it will hurt Mathilde to much to not be able to do anything about it but I think the plausible outcomes of not doing so are much worse.

Klaus said:
I am looking at the greater context, and the greater context is that we have been told, in character, that neither of those groups will want to pick a fight with a group as large and well armed as ours and they would have to go out of their way to do so whereas Karak Vlag was perfectly positioned to ambush us and completely unavoidable.

When even the people arguing that we can go there safely list "start trouble" as one of the likely actions it really doesn't convince me that this is a good idea.

It feels extremely likely for players to focus on the problems in front of them. Slavery exists somewhere else? Probably not something to solve. A slave is being tortured in front of you in order to demonstrate his high pain tolerance to buyers? Time for shenanigans.

Actually, I don't even need to use arguments to be convincing. Players in this thread have stated that if they go there they intend to burn the place down.
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Well yes if you ignore all context you can pretend that people are saying what ever you want! :V As the only person talking about burning it all down is NSMS and they are saying we can't do that so they don't want to go I think you're well cherry picking is the most polite way to put it.

Oh and misrepresenting what is being said. My main plan with Uzkalak is to scout and buy some books, with the Combes well Skaven anti magic prep for illusion wielding ninjas is generally terrible and i'm happy to scout and steal there because I think the risks aren't particularly high and we can learn if the skaven have any designs on the expedition.

I don't believe we've been told in character that the Skaven can't reach us either tbh and with out scouting and verifying it ourselves I wouldn't trust it any way.
 
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storryeater said:
May I say that, this at least, is not bad if you ascribe to utilitarianism, because the world being as it is, it is the best outcome.
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Just picking the time I remember as one of the biggest moment of got of game moralA being used to as a beat stick by certain, not to be named, players on other players.

Also: putting my hands up. I'm guilting if it too (the dwarf shenanigans crisis was mainly my fault.)
 
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Valmond said:
We voted to join this expedition.
Thread can be very cautious at times, other times it will take huge risks, sometimes without realising the risks when it does.
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The expedition was a very calculated risk. Gotrek, Snorri and Borek all came back from the original failed expedition and they didn't have a couple artefacts forged by the greatest living Runelord nor the magic to summon a superfast shadow steed.

We also spent a ton of preptime making sure the Expedition went in our favour by getting knights, wizards and the Old World's most famous elf and dragon duo.

That's not to say we haven't taken some pretty crazy risks at times (at basically every major battle in K8P for example or when rescuing the Dawi on the river) but they weren't stupid risks.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Yes it's certainly your argument, but it doesn't hold merit. There's a lot of good reasons to visit these places that aren't "To burn it down immediately" I know you don't want to visit it because you think it will hurt Mathilde to much to not be able to do anything about it but I think the plausible outcomes of not doing so are much worse.
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I have mentioned 'or rob it' and 'or gather intel for later destruction' as other valid reasons, even if my preference would be purging it with fire and acid. It's just somewhere that I don't think should continue existing if we have the power to do something about it... and we quite blatantly don't, and aren't ever likely to.
SuperSonicSound said:
Well yes if you ignore all context you can pretend that people are saying what ever you want! :V As the only person talking about burning it all down is NSMS and they are saying we can't do that so they don't want to go I think you're well cherry picking is the most polite way to put it.
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I think at least one or two other people have mentioned something along those line, but it's not a majority opinion by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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Horium said:
We are going to a warzone in a hellwaste. Unless we find an imprisoned grailknight, freeing them won't be a kindness.
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I'd think most anyone would choose to accompany a caravan into hell wastes than guaranteed be sacrificed to Chaos or warped into something wishing it was dead if it werent so corrupted...
 
BoneyM said:
The Light Wizard quartet played quite a dramatic role in the battle, one that you'd attempted and failed you claim for yourself.
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Typo: failed you claim -> failed (to) claim
BoneyM said:
Once the Expedition has finished lickings its wounds
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Typo: licking(s) -> licking
Unnecessary 's.'
BoneyM said:
"Grey Wizard of the Empire," you say, as voices mutters in the darkness at your apparent intangibility.
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Possible typo: as voices mutter(s) -> mutter
Again, the sentence seemed weird to read with the extra 's' in mutter.

Voting for finishing our social calls with the Wizards (especially the Light Journeymanlings), commiserate with Snorri about Vlag, and get to know Ruprecht better.

[x] Journeyman Cyrston von Danling
[x] Journeywoman Alexandra Kohler
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
Resonant threw 1 20-faced dice. Reason: test Total: 5
5 5
 
I like sidequests! They're opportunities to loot.

I'm not worried about Mathilde's ability to pass unnoticed in Chaos Vegas. Similarly, I am not worried about her deciding to do something stupid and getting herself killed, because this is a quest with votes. The majority isn't going to vote to do something dumb.

I'm not even concerned about giving the Dawi Zharr our money. With any other faction (that uses money) it might be a concern, but these are Hashut worshippers. They'll throw it into one of their endless money pits, and complain that it's not enough for their literally insatiable greed.

[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
I really don't want to go to Chaos Dwarf City. I don't want to give them gold, however indirectly, and I don't want them to know she was there. And I don't want Dwarves to know that Mathilde went there. Dealing with the Kurgan is one thing, but the Chaos Dwarves are another. I'd rather explore those Mulder combes. At least that would be less upsetting.

[x] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[x] Journeywoman Alexandra Kohler
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
 
BoneyM said:
"Of course," Borek says. "They weren't lost in the Golden Age, they would have all the modern weapons."

You pass on commenting on the fact that two century old weapons would still be considered modern. "In the Aethyr, constants aren't. For blackpowder to have worked this entire time, chemistry and thermodynamics must have remained unchanged this entire time. That's unlikely, unless it was kept in a sort of 'bubble' of reality."

"Why would that be the case?" Snorri asks.

You consider that. "It might have had to be to maintain the anchor, to keep the Karak bound to this position for it to be able to move back and forth. That would fit the energy drain. Keeping a bubble of reality in the Aethyr would be as energy-intensive as keeping a bubble of unreality here was to the Daemons."

"It'd explain why the Daemons had to fight for every step, instead of the sheer weight of Chaos driving the Dwarves insane or turning them to stone, as it did to our lost cousins," Borek says gravely.
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Good points.

"And leaves our lads still kicking?" Snorri says, hope in his voice.

"More than kicking by the looks of things," Johann says, running his fingers through a chunk smashed out of a wall.

"Well then," he says, and slaps his knee determinedly. The rest of you follow him as he delves back into the depths. "Ahoy!" he shouts, and you're barely able to grab him by the collar and yank him out of the path of an incoming crossbow bolt. "Hold fire, damn it," he bellows, and you sigh and give him another yank as a crossbow bolt tinks off the stone behind where he was. "You're back in the mountains! You're safe!"

"Oh aye?" comes a voice from the darkness. "Well, we'll just let our guard down then, shall we? Parades and feasts and the High King here to shake our hand and tug our beard too, I expect. Wives and gold for everyone. Got that about right?" There's a chorus of chuckles echoing from the darkness.

You can see realization hit Snorri. "But it's real," he says to the darkness, and scornful laughter is all he gets in response. Well, that and a third bolt, but he's already stepping out of the path of that on his own.
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...I LIKE the dwarves of Karak Vlag. Paranoid and annoying... but I like 'em. :p

They have a certain... laconic... approach to being trapped in the Warp and besieged by Slaaneshi daemons.

"Molon labe."

"Hi," you say as a Marsh Light illuminates the darkness, and then you step out of the way of the inevitable crossbow bolt. Or at least the Illusion of yourself does. You're bold, but you're not stupid.

"Got sick of the act?" the voice says. "Bit overdressed, aren't you?"

"Oh, I'm not a Daemonette," you say. "Mathilde Weber, Dalmhornzhufokrul."

There's a moment of silence as they consider that. "Night water crafter? You make commodes?"
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OK, that is just hilarious.

You're too busy grimacing at the mistranslation to react fast enough, and two crossbow bolts punch through the empty air that your Illusion occupies. "Grey Wizard of the Empire," you say, as voices mutters in the darkness at your apparent intangibility.

"Pull the other one," says the voice after a moment. "Empire's not like Kislev, they burn their Zhufi."

"Not since the Great War Against Chaos," you say. "That's what we call the battle against the forces of Asavar Kul, the Everchosen during the chaos invasion you lot disappeared in. The Empire legalized Wizards because we joined in the fight against Chaos."

"Well, at least this one's original," says the voice. "Go on, then. The next part is where the High King showed up and saved the day and everyone starts respecting us properly. That last bit is the least believable part of the entire spiel, if you ask me."

"He died," you say. "His sons, too. His nephew Thorgrim's on the Throne of Power now."

"Think I preferred the other ones. What sort of temptation do you call this?"

You shrug, and your Illusion does too. "None at all, it's pretty grim. After the losses were tallied, some Dwarfholds were talking about sealing their entrances and dwindling. But Thorgrim declared that the Silver Age was over, and that the Age of Reckoning has begun. The Karaz Ankor will repay every Grudge before it fades from the world."

Mutters answer that. "This isn't the sort of thing they say," you can just hear someone saying. "Maybe Tudnak's right."

"It will take more than one earthquake only the Rune-pokers can feel before I stick my neck out."

"Here, I think I've got an idea. Budge over." A moment later, a much louder voice asks, "what about the Elgi? They turn up for this Great War of yours?"

You smile. "They sent three people and they still act smug about it."

Silence answers that. "I think it might be real," someone finally says.
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:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:

Decades Later:

[A teary-eyed Longbeard speaks, as beardlings gather around]

"And that... that was the moment the first of us dared to hope it might be real..."

When you return to the surface, you're forced to repeat your argument several more times before everyone reluctantly accepts it, but Snorri brought one of the crossbow bolts up with him and keeps showing it to people who think they'd be able to do better. The mood is mixed as the Expedition prepares to set off once more, as those who want to stay and try their hand are harangued by Borek into submission. The clock is ticking, and there's no hope of getting anything other than munitions from Karak Vlag for the foreseeable future. So you leave in your wake one Hold of thoroughly traumatized Dwarves, which is at least better than the bare mountain where a Hold should be.
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Victory!

It's a terrible place, and the world would be far better if it was torn to the ground. But it's also a place where a fistful of gold could turn into just about anything, including ancient tomes, forgotten scrolls, Elven steles, and golden plaques from the New World. The part of you that wants to see it destroyed is matched by another part of you that wants a chance to peruse the treasures from across the world that would be available to purchase there. And it could also answer questions of supply, as even if you don't trust the food farmed and gathered by Chaos Dwarves, food cargoes from piracy and herd animals from the Steppes could also be available for purchase there. The Dwarves wouldn't like it, but they'd probably like starving to death and failing Karag Dum even less.
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Wait, are they- or rather, is she- actually thinking of going there?

Just to be clear, @BoneyM , does Mathilde foresee angry dwarf reactions if she does?
 
veekie said:
I'm not really seeing the problem of exploring when its on the way rather than a massive sidetrip. Its a market and port, far too many people pass through it for anyone to be noticed short of the convoy driving up to the gates and demanding to be let in.

Mathilde is aware of subtlety, and this is a fairly good place to acquire additional supplies and fuel to top up the reserves, which are down due to events at Vlag. Its a chance to acquire intelligence and resources.

Besides, it's a good way to gather information on other travelers and large convoys passing through that we may want to avoid. Mathilde is more than capable of approaching in disguise or concealment, and shes mobile enough to enter the city from the opposite direction of the expedition with minimal fuss.

And finally. Boney usually pregenerates the threats. The state of Vlag was not determined when we poked it. It was determined when the expedition started, and had we not poked it, we may have run into surprise daemonic army on the way past. Same goes for the Chaos Dwarves. Can't know if anything could come out of it if we don't look.
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Er, I'm pretty sure the state of Vlag was literally determined when we poked it. Because that's when the fate of Karag Dum was determined, and Vlag's state required that the magic from Dum was still coming in to power the ritual.


I see no reason to assume there must be slave-pens in Pragg that Mathilde neglected to mention- the exact nature of slavery in Kislev is almost entirely unexplored in canon, with the only mention being that slaves are traded at Erengrad
 
veekie said:
The issue is the fog being selectively applicable, it needs to make a decision. Spells cannot make decisions, and the wizard cannot make such decisions without a great deal of overhead or a cheat. Spells that create real effects that do real things are dramatically simpler by contrast. Keep the effect as simple as possible, the more conditions the harder
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We know that IFF is specifically not a problem, because Burning Shadows accomplishes it just fine.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
The expedition was a very calculated risk. Gotrek, Snorri and Borek all came back from the original failed expedition and they didn't have a couple artefacts forged by the greatest living Runelord nor the magic to summon a superfast shadow steed.

We also spent a ton of preptime making sure the Expedition went in our favour by getting knights, wizards and the Old World's most famous elf and dragon duo.

That's not to say we haven't taken some pretty crazy risks at times (at basically every major battle in K8P for example or when rescuing the Dawi on the river) but they weren't stupid risks.
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All the risks we take are calculated.
That does not mean they are smart, necessary, worth it, or will work out.
Eventually we will bite too much, and i would rather it not be in a chaos dwarf settlement because we wanted to go sightseeing or grab some extra shinies.
 
For the record, I vote for the combes because I really like Qrech and feel like this will open up for some interesting social actions with him once we hopefully return home.

So in a way, you could say that going for the combes is still voting for an social action, even if it is a delayed one.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Let's just... calibrate our expectations, alright?

To quote @ctulhuslp and @13th Fleet :

This isn't going to be "Chaos Vegas", it's going to be Mathilde walking past slave pens full of people she can do nothing to help, who are destined to be worked to death by the Chaos Dwarfs, eaten by Ogres, sacrificed by God knows who, and so on.

It'll be the Chaos Eclipse Arc of Berserk: tons of demons, corruption, misery and violence, and her being helpless while looking in the eyes of the victims.

And that's fine. It'll be well written - just look at the rat mother scene - it'll affirm our resolve, it'll give us more information on how to proceed, it'll meaningfully evoke Mathilde's character and her relationship with her god.

What it won't be is fun. I'm still voting to go.
Scheduled vote count started by BoneyM on Dec 20, 2020 at 2:24 AM, finished with 308 posts and 119 votes.
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I'm kinda unsure where are all those "people she can do nothing to help" (but wants to) will come from. Main slave-stock of the Chaos Dwarves are greenskins and I'm pretty sure Mathilde doesn't care a whit about their fate. Chaos dwarves are surrounded by other Destro factions, which means most of their slaves would be from those factions. Thus I expect that any people Mathilde would be sympathetic to will be one-off rarities and she certainly can do something on that scale (like buy them) even if she cannot end slave trade itself.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Wait, are they- or rather, is she- actually thinking of going there?

Just to be clear, @BoneyM , does Mathilde foresee angry dwarf reactions if she does?
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People are voting for it, because it's a shiny sidequest dangle. Honestly, the lure of magic b o o k is enough to fall to chaos by itself. Preferably if the vote wins she does the sane thing and go alone without telling shit, so the 'lawful light magister' can 'raise concerns at the college' without actually seeing anything the dick.
 
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[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr

We are going to Chaos Vegas to buy the forbidden shiny things. Maybe we'll find, in the double black market, a Chaos Weapon that was forged out of Shallyans and unicorns and ended up super holy by accident (a canon thing); that'd be a neat find.
 
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[x] Journeyman Cyrston von Danling
[X] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[X] Ranging far ahead of the convoy

Mostly don't think it's a good idea to poke around the choas dwarf or Skaven places when we'll need to come back this way at some point. If we're going to draw the attention of probably hostile forces we should do it on the way back, when we'll be out of retaliation range before they can do much about it.\
 
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