Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Even if you believe that making the Karaz Ankor pay for Marienburg's treachery is the best course of action (and I don't), recall what this vote is. It's not deciding how events will play out. It's making a recommendation based on what we think the Dwarves will agree to - and I genuinely think that they will not agree to just pay for the Empire's upkeep for 5 years so that the Empire doesn't have to stand up to Marienburg.

They will see this as cowardice, and possibly going back on agreements in some places. The idea that this would somehow bind the Empire and the Karaz Ankor together is laughable - the option for that is to get in a fight side-by-side.
 
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Let's not forget that the "Break the blockade option" is essentially declaring all out naval warfare on Marieburg:

Breaking the blockade would most likely involve destroying their navy and the infrastructure that allows Marienburg to block the river, and probably anchoring a Dreadnought or five off the coast in case they get any funny ideas about rebuilding.

It doesn't explicitly invade them, but it's damn close. And it's something that the kind of prideful Elven noble who shaves beards for fun can probably be spun into at least enough of a fig leaf to take out a ship to fight the ancient foe and "defend their allies against this aggression".

The Trade option is unfair to the Dwarves, but it will result in a lot less loss of life from any resulting resurgence of tensions with Uluthan. The Dawi are barely at or above replacement rate right now, but rich enough that while painful this won't cripple them. Better to pay in money that the Canal will recoup than potentially in Dwarven lives that will just accumulate further grudges.
 

You see the problem? This is Marienburg and the river that flows through it is the Reik which is the only connection between the ocean and a river-network that spans most of the Empire. Marienburg doesn't need to do any aggressive action to embargo the Empire, simply not allow passage through its city is well within its right.


Also I find it a bit unfair to say that the Mairenburgers are an hostile, unredeemable villain for defending itself against the Empire and striving to keep their independence...

I have literally no sympathy for the 'desire for liberty' of Mairenburger magnates. These are not oppressed masses, they are economic elites who bribed a weak emperor because they did not fancy paying taxes anymore to the state.
 
The thing is there is no ultimatum from Ulthuan, there is no hint of and elf ship. The possibility of elves is enough for people to drop the financial burden squarely on the dwarfs.
Thats what happens when superpowers throw their influence around. One reason that Marienburg is acting like this is probably that the Dwarfs are involved. It represents the Empire and the Dwarfs getting economically and politically closer, which is a threat to marienburg's independence.
 
It's not. Breaking the blockade would be breaking whatever infrastructure they could use to block the river, and probably sinking some ships - assuming they didn't back down. Imposing another blockade would prevent any ships from going to Marienburg, which would actually do just as much damage to the Empire, because the ships have to pass through Marienburg to get where we need them to go.
Point, but if I were the Elgi in Marienburg, I'd put some nobles son out on a ship there, calling out to any trespassers that they're violating sovereign waters, and essentially dare the Empire to sink them.
And Marienburg would be in the right as it's a city state that runs across the river.
Asking the Dawi to help out economically is the option that leads to the least amount of issues in the long run.
 
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Point, but if I were the Elgi in Marienburg, I'd put some nobles son out on a ship there, calling out to any trespassers that they're violating sovereign waters, and essentially dare the Empire to sink them.
Sure. And then they'd ignore them and keep destroying the infrastructure blocking the way, because they don't have to start that fight, and they can ignore a single elven ship that isn't doing anything but yelling vague threats.
 
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Another factor to consider regarding the Trade Compensation course is that no matter what we do, Marienburg will be running intrigue actions against us unless we capitulate, so we'll need to keep that in mind as well.

Direct sabotage actions against the canals are the most obvious choices, but I expect most of the Marienburgers to realize that the Dwarven workers are not the weakest link in the arrangement. I imagine those who fail to realize this will be allowed to accomplish whatever they can and then cheerfully offered up as scapegoats when it all comes crashing down around them.

Similarly, intrigue actions against Dwarven interests in the project are unlikely to bear fruit, and while intrigue actions designed to sow discontent amongst those shouldering the economic cost could probably have some effect, we just briefed the Chamberlain about how unlikely that would be to lead to the decisions of the higher-ups being overturned. The weak-points in the arrangement would be, as ever, on the Imperial side.

One avenue open to Marienburg would be to sow discontent. Agitating peasants against a deal designed to enrich nobles and burgers at the expense of the little people is, uh, not difficult, and arranging for """unfortunate accidents""" to befall the replacement overland trade routes would only exacerbate the issue. Peasant discontent wouldn't be enough to stop things on its own, of course, but it would increase the pressure on the various ECs to say "no".

Alternately, Marienburg could genuinely increase the local demand for, say, military equipment beyond available supply by increasing the local "banditry" levels, or, depending on how spicy they wanted to get, bribing and supplying as necessary to increase greenskin/beastmen/cultist population. I don't think they'd be stupid enough to try the latter, but it is money that's on the line. (And, if we're unlucky, we could see perfectly natural upticks in those threats which would serve the same purpose.)

Another option would be to bribe the shit out of the internal trade partners to kick up a fuss to the nobles, ensure their own shipments go "missing", or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves. We've already seen the less-than-stellar moral fiber of Talabecland when it comes to trade, and they are, presumably, not alone.

And then there's direct bribes campaign contributions favorable future trade agreements that could be offered to nobles up to and including ECs to stonewall the issue. Ultimately, while the Karaz Ankor can provide monetary compensation for lost trade, they can't fully eliminate the impacts of the lost trade routes, so if the political will to take those costs on the chin can't be mustered Marienburg wins.

Of course, the Empire does have the Grey College to fight these fires, but the fact that Talabecland is not currently perfectly behaved and bereft of half of its nobles and merchants shows that the Grey College can't be everywhere and can't deal with these problems instantly. While the Empire is not helpless to Marienburg's intrigue apparatus, Marienburg could certainly do damage with it, especially with the power of their infinity^2 money.

All of this seems to point in the favor of the blockade breaker option, because it's hard to shiv an ironclad, but there is one potential avenue I'm concerned about there, and that is to bait the Grudgy Dwarves. If some Marienburgers could fake to the Dwarves that the Elves were interfering with the counter-embargo, and a particularly ornery Dwarf captain could be persuaded to do something impolitic to the Elven quarter, that would be, uh, poor. Alternately, if the Marienburgers just chose some sacrificial ponds to throw at the Dwarves until one of them attacked something that wasn't a Naval asset and called upon Ulthuan's treaty, that would lead to issues. Now, Dwarves are a resilient lot, and I don't think that such a a ploy would be likely to work. Why, I think it would be an outright longshot.

But. Well. We heard about Ulthar's brothers.

It only take one fucker in the wrong place at the wrong time to bring it all down.

In general, I still think the trade deal is far more vulnerable to Intrigue shenanigans, but the most dire, multiple critfail-tier potential consequences of the blockade option feel a lot higher to me.
 
I have literally no sympathy for the 'desire for liberty' of Mairenburger magnates. These are not oppressed masses, they are economic elites who bribed a weak emperor because they did not fancy paying taxes anymore to the state.
To be fair, the Westerland was brought into the sigmar's empire by fire and sword and has been snubbed for the imperial throne at least once so I can understand wanting to leave the empire. Yes it was driven by the magnates, and several local nobles where exiled to Reikland and want their lands back, but given the local pride that we see in the fiction there is also probably bottom up resentment of the empire and desire for Westerland independence.
 
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The Trade option isn't unfair to the Dwarves. It's not unfair to Barak Varr in particular. Remember that Barak Varr is poised to take over all of the trade that currently flows through Marienburg. Marienburg declaring an embargo on trade to the Empire cuts them out of that trade too; it's just that Marienburg has more reserve funds right now so they're more able to survive the resulting depression than the Empire is. The simple math says that Barak Varr will profit more from the completion of the canal than it'll cost them to make up the trade losses, probably within a matter of years. The only question is whether Barak Varr has enough money to out-stimulus Marienburg, and the answer is a resounding "yes", especially if Karak Eight Peaks gets involved.
 
The whole point of the canals is to cut out the tumor of Marienburg. 'Breaking the blockade' is sending the iron-clad navy of Barak Varr to tear a hole through the middle of their city state and threaten anybody who tries to touch the wreckage. That's war. It's definitely war. There's no getting around it, because it involves sending dreadnoughts into their territory and blowing up their infrastructure with big cannons.

However much you think the dwarves helping out the Empire would cost, war will cost more. But because we're mad at them and we think we know better somehow it's cowardice to suggest that shooting people might cause them to shoot back. The elf vs dwarf animosity is a pile of tinder which could engulf the world in flame, and people are suggesting that we play with matches because taking a deep breath and not punishing Marienburg would hurt our pride.
 
Moratorium's up.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

I like @kfrar's post here, but mostly I think we don't want to put Marienburg's back to the wall by attempting to exercise complete naval domination, and the forward-thinking of the Karaz Ankor will go for this. Coins sitting in their vaults forever don't do anything for them. Injecting that liquidity into the Empire and trusting that it'll come back around in five years when the canal is built to pay for the shipment of goods is just a really smart long-term move from the perspective of a dwarf king looking to increase his Hold's soft power.
 
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
If Karaz Ankor does do this they are going to expect the empire to repay the debt somehow. Seems like a bad idea to ask them to unless you have a idea of how the empire plans on paying back the debt.
 
Point, but if I were the Elgi in Marienburg, I'd put some nobles son out on a ship there, calling out to any trespassers that they're violating sovereign waters, and essentially dare the Empire to sink them.
And Marienburg would be in the right as it's a city state that runs across the river.
Asking the Dawi to help out economically is the option that leads to the least amount of issues in the long run.

Of course, maybe that doesn't happen. Asking the dawi to help economically is the least risky option, but in return for less risk you also get less benefits. Breaking the embargo with dwarven ships creates some kind of risk for conflict with the elves, but it's a risk not a certainty. Many things would have to go wrong for it to really blow up. If it works out and the risks don't come due, it's a far better result.

So really this is all about level of risk versus level of reward.
 
To be fair, the Westerland was brought into the sigmar's empire by fire and sword and has been snubbed for the imperial throne at least once so I can understand wanting to leave the empire. Yes it was driven by the magnates, and several local nobles where exiled to Reikland and want their lands back, but given the local pride that we see in the fiction there is also bottom up resentment of the empire and desire for Westerland independence.

It was brought into Sigmar's Empire by conquest millennia ago, you would have to be a historian to know or care. That may have been a good excuse to seceded, it was not the rason why the incredibly wealthy magnates bribed Dieter.

Moratorium's up so voting:

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
 
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