Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Or or.. now listen to this idea. We can keep it a secret now and make sure that it won't escalate. As a Grey wizard we know how to keep a secret after all.

Except I don't trust us learning this knowledge and have it NEVER come up again, especially if we were to remain close with the Dwarfs. The damage of revealing we knew all along seems much graver then admitting it's something we just learned recently, especially when Kragg is already suspicious of us.


It was brought up earlier Gotrek was violent towards Teclis for bringing it up, within the context of Gotrek refusing to believe in a thing like Dark Elves, but given Gotrek already tried to kill Teclis at first sight for merely being a High Elf I don't think that situation is remotely compairable to Math's.
 
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So how does Mathilde know that this topic shouldn't be brought up then? I don't see how she could reach this conclusion without the meta-knowledge of the players.
Mathilde is good friends with the dwarfs. She now knows some dwarf cousins are severing dark gods. Is her first thought going to be "Lets talk to these people of an extremely conservative culture about some of their cousins that went off the deep end?"
 
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Except I don't trust us learning this knowledge and have it NEVER come up again, especially if we were to remain close with the Dwarfs. The damage of revealing we knew all along seems much graver then admitting it's something we just learned recently, especially when Kragg is already suspicious of us.

Could you give an example of this coming up again? I'm honestly curious to how you imagine them catching on that we were part of something as unique as a vision from Mork.
 
It's not reasonable, and it's not a subject about which they're really capable of being reasonable.
You know, if this was near any other thread I'd :Citation Needed: you.

But... WHF. Headcannon. Cannon mess. So let's not start that whole mess. It just ends with a QM hammer.
Let's just say I disagree with you and that at best and worst there will be roll for it, and neither you, me or the QM know what that roll will land on. Just like if you don't tell them, Kragg will be making his own roll, and God help you if you lied to him and he passes it.
 
A thought for the future: We need to get our 'Anvil of Doom operations' journal article written and sent/delivered to the College immediately if we want favours out of it. (I presume we do.)

The reason for haste is that Mathilda was not the only Wizard on that battlefield. Panoramia was too exhausted and the Ambers are unlikely to care but both Maximilian and Johann had the opportunity to see Kragg at work. While I doubt they got as good a look as we did (combination of vantage, traits, no distractions, etc) they probably got enough to figure out the basics.
In academia the first to publish is always more important than the best to publish.

We may get the choice to collaborate with them, share our observations and perspectives, but either alone or jointly we need to get it done immediately. Our College shinies depend upon it!
 
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If possible, i want Mathilda's report to the grey also covers a wholesome aspect of the benefit on having multiple school wizards working in complimenting manner, rather then a group of wizzard from the same school.

We have to admit that a bottle of poison can make her live easier or Mathilda is in a perfect spot to act as artilerry spotter.

Her MAP is also a contribution and also the use of revolver in stealty assasination mission and the value of explosive.

So this vote ALSO determines how much we tell the Grey Order? Why drop that now, ages into the voting, instead of revealing it from the start?
Anything to end this destructive argument between members...
 
You know, if this was near any other thread I'd :Citation Needed: you.

But... WHF. Headcannon. Cannon mess. So let's not start that whole mess. It just ends with a QM hammer.
Let's just say I disagree with you and that at best and worst there will be roll for it, and neither you, me or the QM know what that roll will land on. Just like if you don't tell them, Kragg will be making his own roll, and God help you if you lied to him and he passes it.

To be honest I was worried about that too, I argued for it when it was just the Mork thing, but I genuinely can't think of any suspicion he may have that would be worse than bringing up Chaos Dwarfs to Kargg.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Drinking
[X] More drinking
[X] Drinking games

Might not be a good idea but Drunk Mathilde sounds hilarious.
 
Mathilde is good friends with the dwarfs. She now knows some dwarf cousins are severing dark gods. Is her first thought going to be "Lets talk to these people of an extremely conservative culture about some of their cousins that went off the deep end?"
To at least clear up how much of an issue is the topic, with people she knows and trusts, definitely.

Everything else mistakes player knowledge OOC for Mathilde IC knowledge IMO.
 
A thought for the future: We need to get our 'Anvil of Doom operations' journal article written and sent/delivered to the College immediately if we want favours out of it. (I presume we do.)

The reason for haste is that Mathilda was not the only Wizard on that battlefield. Panoramia was too exhausted and the Ambers are unlikely to care but both Maximilian and Johann had the opportunity to see Kragg at work. While I doubt they got as good a look as we did (combination of vantage, traits, no distractions, etc) they probably got enough to figure out the basics.
In academia the first to publish is always more important than the best to publish.

We may get the choice to collaborate with them, share our observations and perspectives, but either alone or jointly we need to get it done immediately. Our College shinies depend upon it!
Better yet we get them to write it out, put our name first in the list of authors and call it a day. Most of prestige, none of the effort. It's good to be a Magister.
 
Come on now. This was obvious from the beginning. What we tell people is what we tell people. Of course what we tell some people will effect what we tell other people. That's just common sense. I've made the argument to that effect multiple times.

For one: OOC argument. But I don't have a leg to stand on there so: I think "Angry God incoming" might trump your "Under Any circumstance". So might "So I'm going to go and tell all my people about this. You ok with that? For your secret shame to be shared with a bunch of manlings? What? It's a secret shame? I shouldn't? You don't say.




Well for one, I don't believe it's an OOC argument. Lets make it explicitly IC. Mathilde has a choice right now. Share what has happened and what she has learned about dwarfs. Or don't. Mathilde knows a great deal of dwarven culture. She knows how steadfastly they resist chaos. She has study tomes talking about dwarven resistance to magic and thus the touch of chaos. (This is inference from her talk about how dwarven rune smiths sometimes fell magic backwards and their resistances to it.) She deeply understands how much the dwarfs hate the greenskins. She doesn't need to know how they would react to a conversation about some of their cousins falling to chaos and creating a fraction of the problems the rest of them face. She can guess. She is a smart cookie.

As for your other arguments. An angry god incoming? Is that something you are just guessing at or is there something in the thread somewhere about that upcoming? Because I think it is just as likely as Mork going off and sulking for a bit or getting into a fight with Gork and forgetting about this. Mork is an orc god after all.

For your next argument, do you really believe that the grey order has such loose lips as they would spill the beans on a secret and reveal where they got that secret from? Also Mathilde has a habit of hiding things from her superiors that she doesn't think they need to know. She has done it with Anton and his Aunt from the Jade order. I don't see that changing now.

Except I don't trust us learning this knowledge and have it NEVER come up again, especially if we were to remain close with the Dwarfs. The damage of revealing we knew all along seems much graver then admitting it's something we just learned recently, especially when Kragg is already suspicious of us.


It was brought up earlier Gotrek was violent towards Teclis for bringing it up, within the context of Gotrek refusing to believe in a thing like Dark Elves, but given Gotrek already tried to kill Teclis at first sight for merely being a High Elf I don't think that situation is remotely compairable to Math's.

So you trust us to keep it a secret if the dwarfs ask us to keep it a secret but you don't trust us to be able to keep it a secret later down the road? Like can Mathilde only keep a secret if she is asked to? That doesn't seem like Mathilde to me.

To at least clear up how much of an issue is the topic, with people she knows and trusts, definitely.

Everything else mistakes player knowledge OOC for Mathilde IC knowledge IMO.

Already talked about this earlier in this reply. She can likely already guess how much of an issue this would be with her IC knowledge.
 
Mathilde is good friends with the dwarfs. She now knows some dwarf cousins are severing dark gods. Is her first thought going to be "Lets talk to these people of an extremely conservative culture about some of their cousins that went off the deep end?"

Let's start by keeping in mind Mathilde is unaware of the extent of the taboo on the Dawi Zar among the Dwarves. All she can reasonably infer is that Chaos worshiping Dwarves are a source of deep shame to the Dwarves. At the same time, she has acquired valuable intelligence about the workings of the Ruinous Powers acted by traitors to the Dawi, which have harmed the Dawi. What should she do?

1. She could assume that the shame means the Dwarves would ignore any intelligence offered on that score. But from Mathilde's viewpoint, leaders of the Forces of Order and Sanity who ignore the activities of the Ruinous Powers within their ranks are foolish at best and treasonous to Order at worse. I don't think that this is how she sees King Belegar and Kragg the Grim.
2. If that's the case, it makes sense for Mathilde to hold back her full report in front of the council, but to alert King Belegar and Karagg the Grim about the potential involvement of the Ruinous Powers in the creation of the Black Orcs. A shameful threat of unknown proportions is not a threat that should be kept to herself, but a threat that should be shared to the "right people" under extreme secrecy, privacy and confidentiality

IC wise, I don't think the conservative culture of the Dwarves is enough to overcome Mathilde's likely instincts as an intelligence agent that the activities and plots of the Ruinious Powers should be kept made known to the competent leadership of the forces of Order. While the information is too sensitive to be made public, it doesn't automatically mean that this information should be kept completely secret. Again, Mathilde doesn't have enough information to know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is, at most she can only deduce that information about the Dawi Zar ought to be only shared under conditions of privacy.

TLDR: From an IC perspective, I don't find the whole Mathilde won't talk about the Dawi Zar behind the closed doors because of the shamefulness of the Dawi Zar thesis very convincing when she doesn't know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is. You don't play around when the Ruinous Powers are involved.
 
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[X] Remain silent.


[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Drinking
[X] More drinking
[X] Drinking games

Sounds like fun
 
Let's start by keeping in mind Mathilde is unaware of the extent of the taboo on the Dawi Zar among the Dwarves. All she can reasonably infer is that Chaos worshiping Dwarves are a source of deep shame to the Dwarves. At the same time, she has acquired valuable intelligence about the workings of the Ruinous Powers acted by traitors to the Dawi, which have harmed the Dawi. What should she do?

1. She could assume that the shame means the Dwarves would ignore any intelligence offered on that score. But from Mathilde's viewpoint, leaders of the Forces of Order and Sanity who ignore the activities of the Ruinous Powers within their ranks are foolish at best and treasonous to Order at worse. I don't think that this is how she sees King Belegar and Kragg the Grim.
2. If that's the case, it makes sense for Mathilde to hold back her full report in front of the council, but to alert King Belegar and Karagg the Grim about the potential involvement of the Ruinous Powers in the creation of the Black Orcs. A shameful threat of unknown proportions is not a threat that should be kept to herself, but a threat that should be shared to the "right people" under extreme secrecy, privacy and confidentiality

IC wise, I don't think the conservative culture of the Dwarves is enough to overcome Mathilde's likely instincts as an intelligence agent that the activities and plots of the Ruinious Powers should be kept secret to the competent leadership of the forces of Order. While the information is too sensitive to be made public, it doesn't automatically mean that this information should be kept completely secret. Again, Mathilde doesn't have enough information to know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is, at most she can only deduce that information about the Dawi Zar ought to be only shared under conditions of privacy.

TLDR: From an IC perspective, I don't find the whole Mathilde won't talk about the Dawi Zar behind the closed doors because of the shamefulness of the Dawi Zar thesis very convincing when she doesn't know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is. You don't play around when the Ruinous Powers are involved.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think Mathilde can infer plenty well how explosively Kragg would react to any deep shame of the dwarfs brought up. If this conversation was between just Mathilde and Belegar I would be much less concerned. But it's not. The mainstream vote for breaking silence means dragging a someone who just covered a valley in lava is extremely bitter and doesn't care in the least about her to talk about a deep shame of the dwarfs. I don't think it would be a good idea and I honestly don't think Mathilde would think it would be a good idea to talk to Kragg about something that shames the dwarfs ever.
 
@BoneyM You mentioned that we'd be telling the maximum amount of useful information without endangering her own standing. Can we get a general idea of what that would include? Or at least any notable Exclusions.

The possession? The Chaos Dwarfs? Ranald?



I had this funny thought of the Grey College's Patriarch suddenly getting this massive report filled with all the stuff Mathilde didn't want to report because it would ruin her chances of promotion on his desk the day after Mathilde finally hits Magister Lord.

Patriarch: These reports are filled with crucial information why haven't we seen these before?
Mathilde: Must have got lost in the mail.
Patriarch: :anger:
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Sinsystems on Sep 24, 2019 at 7:02 AM, finished with 868 posts and 224 votes.
 
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think Mathilde can infer plenty well how explosively Kragg would react to any deep shame of the dwarfs brought up. If this conversation was between just Mathilde and Belegar I would be much less concerned. But it's not. The mainstream vote for breaking silence means dragging a someone who just covered a valley in lava is extremely bitter and doesn't care in the least about her to talk about a deep shame of the dwarfs. I don't think it would be a good idea and I honestly don't think Mathilde would think it would be a good idea to talk to Kragg about something that shames the dwarfs ever.
I beg to differ. Mathilde's experience with dwarfs so far suggests strongly that when information like this is offered to responsible leadership, what happens is they set upon a careful and deliberate plan to rip the offending party to shreds, over centuries if necessary.

In the case of Dwarf Chaos Cultists she's likely of the opinion that they SHOULD be ripped to shreds and sees no problem with it. Likewise she already understands it shouldn't be shared to the public, any more than finding chaos cultists in Stirland should be something shared to the council in general.

Mathilde had seen a lot of mature, reasonable if understandably very grumpy dwarfs. And Kragg has been goddamned exemplary in how he conducted himself.
He dislikes modern cannon, but they're in use and he just grumbles about their unreliability.
He dislikes Umgi magic, but he has conducted himself with reasonable courtesy and restraint, handling Mathilde's deeds with sour looks but recognizing she remains a credit to the team.
He hates the Greenskins, so instead of running out there and pasting them with his hammer in fury, he prepares, and stockpiles a massive array of runic weaponry for the day when he might see them DELIVERED.

From every indication, what she expects out of Belegar and Kragg when she tells them about the Dawi Zharr is:
-Plan for an eventual campaign against the Dawi Zharr, which will include scouting, mapping, determining forward bases, and overall a timescale of maybe 4-5 centuries.
-Prepare runes to fuck up heretical dwarf sorceror slavers
-Tell her to keep it secret. As she didn't tell the COUNCIL they can expect a certain degree of sense they would not normally expect of Umgi.
 
TLDR: From an IC perspective, I don't find the whole Mathilde won't talk about the Dawi Zar behind the closed doors because of the shamefulness of the Dawi Zar thesis very convincing when she doesn't know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is. You don't play around when the Ruinous Powers are involved.
That is convincing enough.

[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.
 
Well since it does not look like the Grand master has much of a chance:

[X] Remain silent.

[X] Hold a Ranaldan religious service

Trying to make sure the wolf does not make the cut since that does not interest me.
 
[X] Tell Belegar and Kragg.

[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Johann
[X] 'Make sure the ale hasn't gone bad' with Skaroki
[X] Put on a magic display (Petty and Lesser only)
[X] Play with a giant wolf
[X] Sparring
[X] Yes to Shenanigans
 
Plan for an eventual campaign against the Dawi Zharr, which will include scouting, mapping, determining forward bases, and overall a timescale of maybe 4-5 centuries.

You realize that this is utterly impractical yes? No one is sending an army into the Dark Lands to fight Chaos Dwarfs, and if anyone does it's suicide. There are no supply lines and you have to fight your way through hostile greenskins every step of the way. On to of that the wastes are right next door.
 
Let's start by keeping in mind Mathilde is unaware of the extent of the taboo on the Dawi Zar among the Dwarves. All she can reasonably infer is that Chaos worshiping Dwarves are a source of deep shame to the Dwarves. At the same time, she has acquired valuable intelligence about the workings of the Ruinous Powers acted by traitors to the Dawi, which have harmed the Dawi. What should she do?

1. She could assume that the shame means the Dwarves would ignore any intelligence offered on that score. But from Mathilde's viewpoint, leaders of the Forces of Order and Sanity who ignore the activities of the Ruinous Powers within their ranks are foolish at best and treasonous to Order at worse. I don't think that this is how she sees King Belegar and Kragg the Grim.
2. If that's the case, it makes sense for Mathilde to hold back her full report in front of the council, but to alert King Belegar and Karagg the Grim about the potential involvement of the Ruinous Powers in the creation of the Black Orcs. A shameful threat of unknown proportions is not a threat that should be kept to herself, but a threat that should be shared to the "right people" under extreme secrecy, privacy and confidentiality

IC wise, I don't think the conservative culture of the Dwarves is enough to overcome Mathilde's likely instincts as an intelligence agent that the activities and plots of the Ruinious Powers should be kept made known to the competent leadership of the forces of Order. While the information is too sensitive to be made public, it doesn't automatically mean that this information should be kept completely secret. Again, Mathilde doesn't have enough information to know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is, at most she can only deduce that information about the Dawi Zar ought to be only shared under conditions of privacy.

TLDR: From an IC perspective, I don't find the whole Mathilde won't talk about the Dawi Zar behind the closed doors because of the shamefulness of the Dawi Zar thesis very convincing when she doesn't know just how taboo the Dawi Zar is. You don't play around when the Ruinous Powers are involved.
Damn, this is actually a good argument.


We OOC might be sure that knowledge of Black Ork origins is not going to be useful to Dawi.
But for all Mathilde knows, this might be a crucial intel piece which gives Kragg one weird trick to kill them ten times faster. It most likely is not even IC, but what kind of person would she be if she risked withholding potentially important data like this, no matter how small the chance of it being actionable?

Do we want to play the kind of Mathilde who buries potentially useful info from allies who trust her just because she is scared they will grumble at her?
 
Damn, this is actually a good argument.


We OOC might be sure that knowledge of Black Ork origins is not going to be useful to Dawi.
But for all Mathilde knows, this might be a crucial intel piece which gives Kragg one weird trick to kill them ten times faster. It most likely is not even IC, but what kind of person would she be if she risked withholding potentially important data like this, no matter how small the chance of it being actionable?

Do we want to play the kind of Mathilde who buries potentially useful info from allies who trust her just because she is scared they will grumble at her?

Personally I would rather play the kind of Mathilde that does not jump into proverbial lava with a cry of: "It's in character!" on her lips as she burns to a crisp. :V
 
Caught up. I was actually going to make a more balanced post initially, but the extremes to which people jump are just too unbelievable to me. Some posts seem to jump to the worst possible consequences and then take that one as inevitable.

Some counterpoints to arguments.
1) There is no reward.
-- Mathilde is not a mercenary.
2) What would Belegar even do with that information?
-- You are looking too small. Even if there is no immediate consequence for the next few decades, or even the rest of Belegar's life, this is general information to add to their lore. Information does not have to pay off immediately.
3) We don't know what will happen.
As I recall, BoneyM's word was that Mathilde would need to be a foremost expert in godstuffs to even begin estimating what the long-term consequences are. Kragg is one of the foremost experts in godstuffs. We should tell him.
4) Ranald
I encourage every single one not versed in WHF to look at some wiki pages of Ranald. The amount of persistent misinformation is staggering and I think the entire thread would benefit from people knowing more about him.
5) Chaos Dwarfs are taboo.
a) Mathilde does not know. b) They might shut the discussion up, so what? They won't immediately jump to killing her or something extreme like that.

Again, infinite series of possibilities. We cannot possibly infer what might happen from this when we don't know anything about the subject, especially when the subject effects an already somewhat random, chaotic, violent race
They don't care about human secrets unless they effect Dawi, and this does not affect Dawi because it does not cause anything that can be predicted or prepared for or that isn't already known.
"Mathilde cannot predict it" !="it cannot be predicted."
"We cannot predict what specifically will happen." != "It will not affect them."

Seriously, just because Mathilde does not know, and you don't see an immediately actionable consequence does not mean no one can know and none exist.

What would Belebro do without us to tell him he should watch out for WAAAGHs?
A parallel scenario: "We have reason to believe that Terrorists are targeting this airport." Yes, Waaghs are always a possible consequence. Waaghs aimed at a specific thing or person are different.
True, but whether it happens or not the dwarfs can't impact it in the slightest. It's not like they can inflitrate the orks and encourage the flames of Only Gork.
Yes, but they might recognize forming schisms (like the one that just happened) and then take advantage of the infighting, or even incite it by leading opposing groups to each other or something like that. That's just an example as an outsider. I could not even begin to imagine all the possible scenarios where this information might help.

Mathilde is, in effect, a scout who found to extremely secret information about the enemy and then refuses to share it. Just because she, as a scout, does not see the wider strategic implication.
You're underestimating the fundamentally alien mindset of the Dawi here. Yes, it seems ridiculous from our point of view. Yes, they will be furious with us if we bring up the Dawi Zharr.
You are jumping to an extreme. So what if they get upset at the mention? If so, they will probably just shut up the discussion once it gets near to the topic.

Mathilde: "And then I had a vision of the origin of the black orcs."
Kragg: "DON'T SPEAK OF THAT TOPIC NOW OR EVER AGAIN!!!"
Mathilde: "okay…"

This is how I expect that part to go if they don't want her to talk about it. Shut it down before it even happens. Maybe some extra warnings afterwards.
 
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