Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I am extremely skeptical of this sort of reasoning. I doubt on general principles that you can turn Shadow Magic into Omni-Magic by saying "magically realistic illusion of" like it's a meta-magic spell, I doubt for in-setting reasons that one Wind would have such uniquely broad capability, especially when there's both Qhaysh and Dhar beside the Eight Winds, and I doubt for OOC reasons that Boney would allow such a thing.
This.
Ulgu has limits. It's only one 8th of true magic. You can do lots of stuff with it, but eventually it fails or refuses and there isn't anything a mortal can do.
 
Its entirely in line with Mathilde's beliefs at least. The Church of Sigmar isn't worth its status. Where Were They?

I expect them to be late, and Mathilde having to deal with tens of thousands of Sigmarite fanatics in a couple of years.

Shyish-kebabs say hi.
It depends on the item being enchanted soundly and the assumptions of the enchantment being correct.

Or sometimes swords which absorb magic might suddenly discharge concentrated Shyish in your face.

They weren't enchanted as the Colleges would conventionally the term though. They were something else, like Dwarven Rune Magic is different to College-style enchantment.

I am extremely skeptical of this sort of reasoning. I doubt on general principles that you can turn Shadow Magic into Omni-Magic by saying "magically realistic illusion of" like it's a meta-magic spell, I doubt for in-setting reasons that one Wind would have such uniquely broad capability, especially when there's both Qhaysh and Dhar beside the Eight Winds, and I doubt for OOC reasons that Boney would allow such a thing.

I generally agree. That's why I think you'd need to use Ulgu to manipulate snake juice to produce that wider range of effects, not Ulgu alone.

As a side note though, Magical Alchemy is an example of the one Wind, Chamon, that currently does have that uniquely broad capability to produce effects from all the Winds that no one other Wind has. That's because it actually uses material containing all the other Winds under Chamon's direction, but it can still do it, and none of the other Colleges have yet managed to produce an equivilent using their own Winds.
 
I've seen no mention of refrigeration tech really anywhere in Warhammer fantasy
As far as I know there isn't even any ice or water magic or spells like that outside of Kislev stuff.
Are those like Empire saints?
Given that Wolf is only the 4th or so most voted option, I'd also think the others would take precedence above Wolf anyway.
He was 3rd place when this discussion started.
I'm confused by the arguments against Wolf. I've taken that option to be complementary to the others. I.e. now that it is safe, we can get Wolf from the daycare and then go visit all the other important people. From the posts it seems others understand it as mutually exclusive uses of Mathilde's time?
I too don't understand why we can't have him with us during the whole party even if we don't specifically focus on him.
@BoneyM Any chance we can convince you to have Mathilde keep Wolf close while visiting the others? Especially since Wolf seems in a secure 4th place now.
 
I am extremely skeptical of this sort of reasoning. I doubt on general principles that you can turn Shadow Magic into Omni-Magic by saying "magically realistic illusion of" like it's a meta-magic spell, I doubt for in-setting reasons that one Wind would have such uniquely broad capability, especially when there's both Qhaysh and Dhar beside the Eight Winds, and I doubt for OOC reasons that Boney would allow such a thing.
I agree. We might be able to convince people we were using other spells on them, but it would be a fairly useless illusion, unless we were supplementing those special effects with, say, a molotov cocktail when the fireball was supposed to hit them, or something.
 
As far as I know there isn't even any ice or water magic or spells like that outside of Kislev stuff.

Ghyran is the Wind of Water. Apparently the High Elves have water mages that use it that are referred to somewhere in the fluff. It seems that the High Elves didn't focus on that aspect of Ghyran when teaching the early Jade College, probably because naval and riverine warfare wasn't a large enough part of the Great War Against Chaos.

Are those like Empire saints?

Yes, basically. Allegedly they're ascended mortals in service to the gods. Apparently Sigmar was initially a Venerated Soul of Ulric, which is part of why the Ulricians are so pissed off about him being recognised as a deity in his own right as opposed to one of Ulric's servants.
 
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I agree. We might be able to convince people we were using other spells on them, but it would be a fairly useless illusion, unless we were supplementing those special effects with, say, a molotov cocktail when the fireball was supposed to hit them, or something.
Ulgu has spells like the Mindrazor. All we need is weaving the illusion of one spell together with the
illusory yet mind-rending effect that Ulgu has already demonstrated, but in a way that fits with the audio-visual illusion and we are doing what others have been suggesting. It doesn't seem very efficient though.
 
Ulgu has spells like the Mindrazor. All we need is weaving the illusion of one spell together with the
illusory yet mind-rending effect that Ulgu has already demonstrated, but in a way that fits with the audio-visual illusion and we are doing what others have been suggesting. It doesn't seem very efficient though.

And to a lesser degree, shadow knives and throttling tentacles.
 
I am extremely skeptical of this sort of reasoning. I doubt on general principles that you can turn Shadow Magic into Omni-Magic by saying "magically realistic illusion of" like it's a meta-magic spell, I doubt for in-setting reasons that one Wind would have such uniquely broad capability, especially when there's both Qhaysh and Dhar beside the Eight Winds, and I doubt for OOC reasons that Boney would allow such a thing.
I like the example of Shadow Conjuration because it already has all sorts of balances that are required to make that sort work, conceptually - it requires a higher spell category slot to cast lower spell category spells, and the end result is still significantly shittier than actually casting the spell in question.

(For the purpose of making the point I'll ignore stupid ways how you can minmax 101% real illusions and other nonsense like that. This isn't DnD, this is a narrative quest, that sort of stuff ain't relevant and probably not intended anyway.)

In the same vein, a theoretical Fiendishly Complex+ spell that I initially suggested and could only imitate spells category or categories lower amongst other drawbacks, does not really reads like omni-magic to me.

...Nevermind my later edit that "A spell that is actually a thousands spells" goes somewhat against how magic is conceptualized in Warhammer, and a "General guide to how convert spells to Ulgu" is probably more fitting to the setting and local magic system.

While we are at that, making a single wind of magic do more things than it is typically expected to is not exactly some sort of a great revelation; Necromancers are all doing it, wizards of Chamon are doing it (if somebody can finally get a citation on that one at least), Mathilde's magical matrix that got adopted by Jade and Amber orders is doing it, and pretty much entire category of spells we got -Petty Magics - is described as "Every school of magic got those spells, they all just cast them differently."

The fact is that Ulgu is the wind of illusions, shadows and ,well, the wind you come for stuff like making your sword hit with strength of your willpower, making shadows burn and other conceptually flexible stuff and thus is likely to be better at pretending to be a thing it isn't.

TBH, IIRC we already had this discussion, and it went significantly better before; Veekie has a pretty good post on stuff that Ulgu might be realistically rule-lawyered into with sufficient effort, and what is less likely. I just kind of carelessly blundered into it the worst possible way that looks awfully simular to "Hey, look, Ulgu is actually Qyash" which is, okay, I deserve that kneejerk, I guess.
 
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I wrote this as a joke, but actually it's a very interesting concept, if we could swing it. As Shadow Knives and The Penumbral Pendulum demonstrate, just because something isn't physically real doesn't mean it can't kill you.

If we were to combine the concepts shared by those spells together with some variant of the spell of Shadowsteed, which summons an entity that can be interacted with, we could very well create a creature that could fight instead of provide transportation (The Shadowsteed already has two 'wounds', all it would need would be an attack score).

Of course, just saying that isn't enough. Spells are hard to come up with, and we need traits related to the concepts to even have a chance at doing so. But you know what we also have?

The Great Big Book of Making Other Things Do Your Work For You, and Denizen Of A Horrifying Hell Dimension Juice (Not Evil Flavor).

Am I suggesting creating illusions of powerful monsters and ensouling them with bound warp predators in order to inflict their power upon our enemies (just like Shyish can use the bodies of once living creatures to bind the souls that used to inhabit them to the caster's will)? Yes, yes I am. Of course, such a thing would be utterly foolish to attempt spontaneously. Any but the weakest of such creatures would be more trouble than they're worth. But we also happen to know Enchanting, and are in a prime position to learn more about it. And the benefit of enchanting is that if you try to use a magic item, even a human-made one, and it botches, it just doesn't work. No explosions, no portals to horrifying hell dimensions, it just fizzles out for a bit. Safely. Sanely. Reliably as magic gets.

That's my pitch. That's what I want to try with the book.
Thinking on it I think its very much worth it to give something like this a go without the juice first. What I'm thinking of is summoning a human sized shadow hunting entity whose strikes damage the mind. Here's why.

Ulgu has demonstrated mind manipulating/damaging effects across all forms of Shadowmagic from Relatively Simple to Battle Magics. Its a staple of it. Most of Ulgu's spells have to do with futzing with a target's mind, Bewilder, Eye of the Beholder, Mindhole, Mockery of Death, Shadow of Death, etc etc all the way up to the Mind Razor.

Furthermore starting at Moderately Complex Ulgu begins to provide damaging *shadows* very specifically in Burning Shadows and Throttling. So we know it is possible for Ulgu to manipulate shadows to damage things. Moving on from that, Mathilde herself has an arcane mark specifically making her shadow animate and able to damage things while remaining untouchable itself(except probably from other magic).

And then at the fiendishly complex level we have Illusion, Shadow Knives and Universal Confusion.

So what I'm thinking is take a shadow based variation on Illusion that sacrifices detail and breadth of effect and mix it with the concept of Shadows Doing Bad Things and some form of mental effect to get some kind of shadow monster that can be summoned amd then sent to eat thing's minds. Like a really scary assassin, which Ulgu is also all about making you.
 
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[X] King Belegar Ironhammer
[X] Grand Master Ruprecht Wulfhart
[X] Panoramia
[X] Mathilde's Malleable Model
 
So what I'm thinking is take a shadow based variation on Illusion that sacrifices detail and breadth of effect and mix it with the concept of Shadows Doing Bad Things and some form of mental effect to get some kind of shadow monster that can be summoned amd then sent to eat thing's minds. Like a really scary assassin, which Ulgu is also all about making you.

There's a spell that haven't been invented yet that allows a Grey Wizard to detach their shadow and send it off to follow someone around and spy on them. I can see that being combined with Mathilde's mastered Dread Aspect to allow her to send her shadow off to attack people.
 
Thinking on it I think its very much worth it to give something like this a go without the juice first. What I'm thinking of is summoning a human sized shadow hunting entity whose strikes damage the mind. Here's why.

Ulgu has demonstrated mind manipulating/damaging effects across all forms of Shadowmagic from Relatively Simple to Battle Magics. Its a staple of it. Most of Ulgu's spells have to do with futzing with a target's mind, Bewilder, Eye of the Beholder, Mindhole, Mockery of Death, Shadow of Death, etc etc all the way up to the Mind Razor.

Furthermore starting at Moderately Complex Ulgu begins to provide damaging *shadows* very specifically in Burning Shadows and Throttling. So we know it is possible for Ulgu to manipulate shadows to damage things. Moving on from that, Mathilde herself has an arcane mark specifically making her shadow animate and able to damage things while remaining untouchable itself(except probably from other magic).

And then at the fiendishly complex level we have Illusion, Shadow Knives and Universal Confusion.

So what I'm thinking is take a shadow based variation on Illusion that sacrifices detail and breadth of effect and mix it with the concept of Shadows Doing Bad Things and some form of mental effect to get some kind of shadow monster that can be summoned amd then sent to eat thing's minds. Like a really scary assassin, which Ulgu is also all about making you.
So you'd first like to try just a Shadowsteed, but it hurts people instead? Like, some sort of Shadow Hound?

A shadow steed plus shadow hounds plus a dread visage equals a wild hunt. Mathilde the Erlkonig sounds like a great upgrade to our reputation for spookiness.

The only issue is seeing about working up a trait that'll let us try to go for it.
 
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So you'd first like to try a Shadowsteed, but it hurts people instead? Like, some sort of Shadow Hound?

A shadow steed plus shadow hounds plus a dread visage equals a wild hunt. Mathilde the Erlkonig sounds like a great upgrade to our reputation for spookiness.

The only issue is seeing about working up a trait that'll let us try to go for it.

Going all Unseelie Fey would have some thematic resonance in the setting. I have previously speculated on going after some form of Shadow Knight trait, but a Shadow Huntsman may be more versatile, and better suited to Mathilde's usual MO. Depending on the nature of the connection between master and familiar, we might be able to use Wolf's shadow as a template for the hounds.

She's even already made enchanted hunting horns before.
 
[X] Mathilde's Multidimensional Aethyric Projection

[X] King Belegar Ironhammer
[X] Head Ranger Ulthar Alriksson
[X] Grand Master Ruprecht Wulfhart
 
So you'd first like to try just a Shadowsteed, but it hurts people instead? Like, some sort of Shadow Hound?

A shadow steed plus shadow hounds plus a dread visage equals a wild hunt. Mathilde the Erlkonig sounds like a great upgrade to our reputation for spookiness.

The only issue is seeing about working up a trait that'll let us try to go for it.
I wasn't thinking that far but more along the lines of that already mentioned humanoid spy shadow, except it lets us get situations of:

"Oh fucking gods its a Shadow Monster and its in my face! Aaaaaaaaahhh its eating my braaaaaaaaaain!" -Some enemy of Mathilde.

But yes, something like a Shadowsteed(animate distinct shadow) that hurts people.

E: And like what @Alratan mentioned I to was thinking Mathilde might have an edge via her own shadow. Take off a chunk and send it to hunt people.
 
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I'd note that while a lot of these ideas sound really cool and I'd love to try them, they also sound like they'd fall under (or have significant overlap with) Ritual Magic. We might want to go and pay a College Favour to take that class if this is something we want to research.

I just want to spend a few/many years on researching all these things and ideas we've let build up. Retaking K8P has actually been way more compelling to read than I'd previously been giving it credit for, and I'm enjoying it, but I very much want to try and take our shinies/favours/rep from this endeavour to go be a traditional wizard doing research in a tower somewhere for a while afterwards.
 
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The Troublesome Apprentice
The Troublesome Apprentice

Anslem Franz sat uneasily in a small brick room, lit only by a dying candle on a table in the middle of the room. With each flicker, shadows seemed to swell and shrink in the room, dancing a maddening dance. As he watched the flickering shadows, Anslem tried to calm his racing heart by counting the seconds that had passed by since a servant had led him here. Unfortunately, he had restarted so many times that he had lost count. It was amusing, in a sickeningly ironic way, that his fear of the dark and shadows had only grown since joining the Grey Order. He had witnessed the horrors that could be done with the wind of shadows, making a man lose his memory, assuming a mocking facsimile of another, and changing the very way a man may act. What other horrors could be done with actual shadows, and with the more powerful spells available to the Magisters of the order?

The creak of an opening door sent his heart hammering, and it did not calm at seeing his… current Master walking in the room. Magister Regimand briefly scanned the room, as if looking for things beyond the sight of mortal kin, and then took a seat at the opposite end of the table. There was a silence in the air, an uncomfortable silence that seemed saturated with tension.

"Anslem," Magister Regimand began after an uncomfortable amount of time, "do you know why you are here in this room?"

"Nnnn...no, Master Regimand. I… I don't."

Magister Regimand frowned but offered no further incentive to speak. Time stretched painfully, seemingly going on forever as the sweat continued to bead down the small of Anslem's back.

"I… guess it would be because I messed up again, Master Regimand."

"Yes, Anslem," Magister Regimand stated, "you did, as you say, 'mess up again.' You failed a simple stakeout and then proceeded to lie to my face about it. How you thought that was something you should do is beyond me, but I have no use for an apprentice who can not even count the number of people entering and leaving from the front door."

Anslem flinched and tried to shrink in upon himself. It didn't help. Nothing helped. He had heard what would come next at least twice before. It was like a ritual at this point.

"You have great potential Anslem , and that is why I agreed to be your master as you learned the secrets and mysteries of the Grey Order. However, you seem incapable of learning the most basic skills and fundamentals of any wizard from the Grey Order. As such, I divest my responsibility for you. No longer will you and I be master and apprentice. No longer will I instruct you in the secrets and mysteries of our Order, and no longer will you seek me out for such instruction."

Choking back tears, Anslem responded, "As…as… as you… as you say, Magister Regimand."

"However," Magister Regimand continued, "I do believe that there is something of worth in your body, and I hate being wrong. As such, I have taken the liberty of securing another Magister to be your Master. They will be here within the month, and until they do arrive to take responsibility for you, you will be confined to your room."

Anslem could barely hear the soft sound of something sliding across the table over his efforts to keep from openly weeping, but upon looking up, he saw a book in front of him.

"I would suggest," Magister Regimand said as he stood up, "that you take that time to study the material I have just gifted you. It will serve you well."

And with that, Magister Regimand left the room. And all that remained was Anslem, a flickering candle, and a mysterious book. Upon the cover of the book was a simple title, "A Primer for Dwarven Culture." Shaking his head, Anslem took the book and simply held it, and waited for the servant to bring him back to his quarters.


*****​

Anslem found himself, a month and change later, in the same room of brick with a flickering candle on a simple table. The only thing different was his knowledge of Dwarven society, what they found important and what to avoid. How this information would help him he didn't know, as the Dwarfs were not known for having any wizards. He would likely soon learn though, as his… new master had come to take responsibility for him. The door opened, and a middle-aged woman stepped into the room. But that was all he noticed before his eyes were drawn to the pool of shadow at the woman's feet, a pool that swirled and danced like a living well of water. He couldn't tear his eyes from that deep, dark shadow and the promise of terror residing within. His heartbeat quickened, sweat began to bead on his brow, and his tongue had suddenly gone dry. And then… there was darkness.


*****​


The feeling of shifting was the first thing he understood, as reality slowly came back to him. There was wood underneath him, and he seemed to be moving on a road, given the irregular bumps. Sound came next, the rumbling of a cart, the wuff of a large animal, and the scratching of a fountain pen on paper. Cautiously he sat up, looking around to gain his bearings. The middle-aged woman he remembered before darkness had claimed him was next to him, sitting up against a massive wolf-like dog, who had sprawled out and seemed to be resting as well. The woman was dressed in the traditional clothes of the Grey Order, but with what seemed like a witch-hunter's hat resting atop her scalp. For some reason, and to his immense relief, her shadow was gone, like it had never existed. A quick inventory of her revealed that she had a great sword laying next to her, as well as some sort of staff, but the most peculiar thing at the moment was her ability to write something without a care for the jostling of the cart. Anslem watched in strange fascination as the pen wrote smoothly, with any hint of jarring or disturbance.

"If you wake in a strange location next to a stranger, the last thing you should do is simply stare at a pen."

Anslem flushed and began looking around at anything other than the mysterious woman. There was no follow up comment, no questions to answer, simply silence. He was growing to hate silence. As such, he decided to break the silence.

"I'm terribly sorry Master, but I don't think I've caught your name."

The pen stopped writing, and the woman looked up with a questioning eyebrow and asked, "Is there any reason you would need my name?"

His eyes darted towards his feet and the tips of his ears burned like fire. "No Master."

There was a moment of silence, and then a sudden slap of flesh. Looking up, Anslem found his Master's hand slowly sliding down her face.

"Wrong answer Apprentice. Always try to continue a conversation with a stranger if you are seeking information. Find what they will freely give and what they are reluctant to talk about, and from that piece together a means to pump more information out of them. It seems that Regimand wasn't wrong. You need to relearn all the basics."

"I'll endeavor to do my utmost."

"We'll see what that is, won't we? Now, cast Aethyric Armor."

Half remembered formulas from books came to the forefront of his mind. It had been a while, at least a month, since he had practiced this spell, and he had never studied how to do it all that in-depth. Opening up his witch sight, he studiously ignored the massive fog bank which swirled around his Master and grasped at Ulgu to begin the spell. Almost immediately, things went wrong. The winds thrashed and tried to escape him, but he poured his willpower and energy into containing and constraining it, making it do what he willed. And then his Master gestured, and all of the Ulgu lept out of his control to flee outside of the cart, grounding itself into the earth passing them by.

"If you can't cast a spell, refuse to cast it. If the winds are running wild, ground the energies and pray. I'm surprised Regimand hasn't killed you himself if you are incapable of even that. We will start with the very basics, and I will force you to relearn everything. And, even though you haven't properly asked, my name is Dame Mathilde Weber. You will call me Master Weber for the duration of your time as an apprentice. Is that clear, Anslem?"

"Yes, Master Weber."

"Good, now get some more sleep, it is a long journey by cart to the Chapterhouse in Karak-Eight-Peaks and we will have a lot to do in the upcoming days. You'll need your strength."

A/N: A thought that there could be a Shadow Wizard who was scared of darkness and shadows tickled me funny. The idea that Regimand would play Apprentice Hotpotato with Mathilde and "gift" her this most troublesome apprentice made my muse go into overdrive. I hope you enjoy, and as always, critiques and criticisms are welcomed.
 
The Troublesome Apprentice

A good omake, but the very idea that Mathilde Weber would reach middle age at the rate she's going without either dying or ascending into an unaging creature of living shadow did strain my sense of disbelief ;)

Unless she's wearing a perpetual doppleganger to hide the oddities of her nature, of course.

A small nitpick, but I think one of the many issues that Warhammer Wizards have is that their magical senses are always on, and can only be ignored, not unseen. Of course, his unusual ability to do so might be why the Magisters see potential in him.
 
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