so a question for those who know about MLP stuff which i do not. i have heard about Nightmare moon and Daybreaker sun. i know they are weird versions of Luna and Celestia. my question is. if we had to fight against 1 of them which would we rather face and why? i know nothing about them so i think it is a fun question to ask about while we are waiting for the next update
In EaW, Daybreaker can cause mass atrition through droughts and heatstrokes and also has more general support carrying over from Celestia, while Nightmare Moon really only has fanatics (especially in this era) and no real special powers associated with the moon in comparison that would help win a war. Therefore, were we to fight either, Nightmare Moon would be the better one for our country.

On the downside, if thestrals are a thing here like they are in the mod, then we'd be killing the fluffy and adorable fourth tribe of Equestria in fighting Nightmare Moon which would make us the bad guys by default. :p
 
oh damn Thestrals look cool. does feel weird to me that NM doesn't have super powers but DS does.
 
oh damn Thestrals look cool. does feel weird to me that NM doesn't have super powers but DS does.
You're gonna have to wait for an answer from the others on their views. Mine, as you may have noticed, were drawn primarily from EaW. I've only watched a scattered number of episodes of the actual show, so some people may consider advantages and disadvantages I either didn't know about or didn't consider.
 
that's fair. i have neither watched the show nor played EaW so i know basically nothing about anything which is why i asked.
 
so a question for those who know about MLP stuff which i do not. i have heard about Nightmare moon and Daybreaker sun. i know they are weird versions of Luna and Celestia. my question is. if we had to fight against 1 of them which would we rather face and why? i know nothing about them so i think it is a fun question to ask about while we are waiting for the next update
basically it comes down to would you rather face death by blazing searing fire or by having every night consumed by heart stopping nightmares that could cause you to die from fright(stress) in your sleep.

But for real we don't really know what the sisters can really do (both in the show and in quest) and in the show you never really got to see what either nightmare sister could do if they really got going so it's mostly guess work with the minimum being leveling a city to the max being destroying the world. What, everlasting night or day would be apocalyptic at some point down the line when either or would freeze or burn the world respectively.
 
basically it comes down to would you rather face death by blazing searing fire or by having every night consumed by heart stopping nightmares that could cause you to die from fright(stress) in your sleep.

But for real we don't really know what the sisters can really do (both in the show and in quest) and in the show you never really got to see what either nightmare sister could do if they really got going so it's mostly guess work with the minimum being leveling a city to the max being destroying the world. What, everlasting night or day would be apocalyptic at some point down the line when either or would freeze or burn the world respectively.
Yeah...
Nightmare moon likely would use nightmares and eternal night to cause big problems, but Daybreaker would still be worse because she would have more support from Equestria...
 
In EaW, Daybreaker can cause mass atrition through droughts and heatstrokes and also has more general support carrying over from Celestia, while Nightmare Moon really only has fanatics (especially in this era) and no real special powers associated with the moon in comparison that would help win a war. Therefore, were we to fight either, Nightmare Moon would be the better one for our country.

On the downside, if thestrals are a thing here like they are in the mod, then we'd be killing the fluffy and adorable fourth tribe of Equestria in fighting Nightmare Moon which would make us the bad guys by default. :p
They're both bad, really.

Sure, Daybreaker has droughts/sun on her side (and possibly prophetic dreams, depending on if questor uses that half-fanon bit), but nightmare moon controls the dreamscape!

She can torment her enemies through nightmares, demoralising and keeping generals and tacticians too tired to be effective.

Maybe she can even do it on a wide scale, on an army or a people.

And if she can manipulate dreams... Why, that's a security nightmare! She could have you believe you're talking with a friend in a dream, and extract plenty of intel that way...
 
She can torment her enemies through nightmares, demoralising and keeping generals and tacticians too tired to be effective.

Maybe she can even do it on a wide scale, on an army or a people.

And if she can manipulate dreams... Why, that's a security nightmare! She could have you believe you're talking with a friend in a dream, and extract plenty of intel that way...
EaW didn't focus too much on the "nightmare" part, beyond the "Harmony through Order" path of Nightmare Moon/Luna wanting to not have to rule through fear and getting rid of that bad reputation by rehabilitating her image among the populace. That said, protection of dreams is one of the most universal mysticisms in every culture and mythos known to human history. Surely Equestria would have some form of magic to ward off such security threats to people of great importance?

Regardless, I do find your post to be a good push, hence why I rated it insightful. Thanks for the thoughts!
 
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honestly if we ever do have to fight either of the sister's nightmare forms I'd hazard a guess and say that Daybreaker would live up to her name and basically be a hammer and be a much more direct threat while Nightmare Moon would probably be more subtle and would only attack openly if she has already done something behind the scenes to assure her of victory.

Really it would probably come down to what you'd find more annoying to fight in which sister would be worse to face. Daybreaker would be very direct so if you feel that our armies could withstand her she'd also be the most direct of the two to deal with, while Nightmare moon would probably be more cloak and dagger stuff so if you think we'd be better to fend off indirect threats then she'd probably be the less threatening of the two... probably have less collateral damage overall as well.

Of course this is all assumptions and for all we know if either sister became a nightmare one would just end everything by sending a solar flare to burn the world and all life on it to a crisp while the other could just pull a Majora and crash the moon into the planet.
 
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In EaW, Daybreaker can cause mass atrition through droughts and heatstrokes and also has more general support carrying over from Celestia, while Nightmare Moon really only has fanatics (especially in this era) and no real special powers associated with the moon in comparison that would help win a war. Therefore, were we to fight either, Nightmare Moon would be the better one for our country.

On the downside, if thestrals are a thing here like they are in the mod, then we'd be killing the fluffy and adorable fourth tribe of Equestria in fighting Nightmare Moon which would make us the bad guys by default. :p
You forget that Nightmare Moon would likely be able to affect those asleep by creating more viral & aggressive Tantabus-like entities.
What'd you say for endless interrupted-to-nonexistent sleep schedules on a strategic scale that expands on its own while amassing more power from the network of nightmares it creates? Or people literally dying of fright while asleep?
 
so another question becouse like i said i know nothing, but how do nightmare moon and daybreaker sun happen? like i have heard of them becoming a thing but i don't know how they work or how they happen.
 
so another question becouse like i said i know nothing, but how do nightmare moon and daybreaker sun happen? like i have heard of them becoming a thing but i don't know how they work or how they happen.
Okay, bit of a lore dump from Comic and show canon.
The Crystal war aka Unicorn Sauron invaded Equestria the Sisters and their Armies got hot and heavy fighting him.

It's been a bit so straight up this bit is Speculation they pushed him back and Luna got into a personal Duel with Sombra was she wounded,Cursed and before she could Kill him He takes the Empire and himself out of time.

The Nightmare War happens after the above is a result of the Curse that is insidious it plays on your fears and wants amplifiying them feeding on them until It's in the Drivers seat.
 
so another question becouse like i said i know nothing, but how do nightmare moon and daybreaker sun happen? like i have heard of them becoming a thing but i don't know how they work or how they happen.
Luna was consumed by her own jealousy.
One day, Luna finally became fed up with Celestia's success. Not only did she refuse to lower the moon, but also challenged Celestia for the sole rulership of Equestria. At that moment, the bitterness in Luna's heart manifested and consumed her, transforming her into Nightmare Moon, a black mare of pure darkness.

Daybreaker Sun never actually happened, she was just a bad dream.
 
I mean Nightmare noon could pull out Sombras winter on world scale by blocking the Sun and plugging the world in winter.

Kinda hard to raise the armies to fight a war if you can't feed them, or the population, after that she just has to bide her time and wait.
 
Princess Luna is introduced in the prologue of the first episode, depicted in a series of medieval-style drawings with a narration that says, "Two regal sisters who ruled together and created harmony for all the land," and that "the eldest used her unicorn powers to raise the sun at dawn; the younger brought out the moon to begin the night."

The narration continues by stating: their subjects, the ponies, played in the day but "shunned" the night and slept through it, which made the younger Alicorn grow bitter, eventually refusing to lower the moon to make way for the dawn. Her bitterness "transformed her into a wicked mare of darkness: Nightmare Moon." The elder sister reluctantly harnessed the power of the Elements of Harmony and "banished her permanently in the moon," taking responsibility for both sun and moon, maintaining harmony in Equestria.

Canon wise, from what I understand there is very limited details beyond what is stated here, but fans gladly turned the bits we got into a bit of a story.


Edit: At least if I remember things correctly...
 
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EaW didn't focus too much on the "nightmare" part, beyond the "Harmony through Order" path of Nightmare Moon/Luna wanting to not have to rule through fear and getting rid of that bad reputation by rehabilitating her image among the populace. That said, protection of dreams is one of the most universal mysticisms in every culture and mythos known to human history. Surely Equestria would have some form of magic to ward off such security threats to people of great importance?

Regardless, I do find your post to be a good push, hence why I rated it insightful. Thanks for the thoughts!
I never played the mod, so I can't really comment on that. I'm mostly theorizing on what they could do based on canon show, and adding a bit of fanon interpretation.

It's reasonable to imagine it should be possible to come up with dream-defenses, but I doubt they can be mass produced. Not easily, at least.

So, you might be able to protect king/generals/spymaster, but that leaves...well, everyone else vulnerable.

Just how long will soldiers march and fight when they're not allowed a single hour of restful sleep?

Also I thought we were talking about who WE'd face, not Equestria, we MIGHT be able to come up with runic amulets of dream-warding, and I imagine the Protectorate might be protected thanks to the Crysteal Heart, but that still leaves a lot of people's dreams defenseless.

Of course this is all assumptions and for all we know if either sister became a nightmare one would just end everything by sending a solar flare to burn the world and all life on it to a crisp while the other could just pull a Majora and crash the moon into the planet.

Or maybe they'd even limit themselves to ruling in their own lands, really. It's hard to say.

so another question becouse like i said i know nothing, but how do nightmare moon and daybreaker sun happen? like i have heard of them becoming a thing but i don't know how they work or how they happen.

ok, these short version is that there's not much CANON details about it.

now, let me go a bit into details

1)Luna/Nightmare Moon: the canon part is that she felt ignored and undervalued, and this caused her to "rebel" out of jealousy, wishing ponies to appreciate her night.

THAT is the only canon part from the cartoon show.

If we go with the comics, There's actually a "nightmare" entity that can "infect/temp/possess" ponies. There's actually a "Nightmare Rarity" arc, for example.

A thing worth pointing out is that, in canon, there's a time-travelling episode in which we're shown the timelines in which each villain won... Nightmare Moon's is the first, and it's... relatively nice.

She's openly authoritarian, Celestia has been sealed (in the sun/moon, I can't remember which), but from what little we've been shown ponies are following her rule and are alive and healthy.

At least 2 of the Main 6 (the heroes of the show) are actually shown to be working for her. This actually implies she's not that bad.

2)Celestia/Daybreaker: Outside of a nightmare/dream, she never "happens" in canon (not that we're told, at least). there's a few alternate dimensions in the comic in which she DID went Daybreaker though.

I can think of one dimension in which they're under the control of the Pony of Shadows, and one in which They're evil while Sombra is good.

In those comic arcs Daybreaker/Nightmare Moon are treated more like the alicorn going evil/crazy/paranoid rather than an external possession though.

Now, Fanon is a bit all over the places. SOmetimes the "nightmare forms" are treated as the result of possession/corruption, often due to Sombra, sometime due to "nightmare entities" of some kind, either infecting them, tricking them, tempting them and so on.

Sometime fanon goes with a "every alicorn has the potential for an evil side in themselves, and they're usually keeping it at bay".



All of this to say: beyond Luna turning into Nightmare Moon out of jealousy and neglect, there's really not much more we know from canon material, and the rest is mostly fanon interpretations and/or theories.
 
Basically from what I know Nightmare Moon is a result of of Luna being understandably annoyed and jealous that despite supposedly being equal rulers 90% of their subjects considered Celestia the primary one because they were all awake during the day

Daybreaker is basically just a "what if" of if the same thing had happened to Celestia though I don't know how that would happen
 
If we go with the comics, There's actually a "nightmare" entity that can "infect/temp/possess" ponies. There's actually a "Nightmare Rarity" arc, for example.

A thing worth pointing out is that, in canon, there's a time-travelling episode in which we're shown the timelines in which each villain won... Nightmare Moon's is the first, and it's... relatively nice.
and THAT whole possession thing is why I called the good-natured "Harmony through Order" Lunar Empire path as being like a "Marvel Symbiote" with NM and Luna being in balance back when I described the EaW's Lunar Empire months ago here :p

That is one of the episodes I've seen, yes. It's the S5 finale. It directly inspired the creation of EaW and many routes on Equus itself are from that episode. Pax Chrysalia wherein the Changelings successfully subjugate Equestria has a lot of those events (including the zebra leading a resistance in the forest), and the Lunar Empire also references that episode a lot. You can even appoint Rarity as a trusted advisor on the "good but authoritarian" path of the Lunar Empire or as a governess of the Moon Crystal Governorate! Pretty cool*.


The element of Generosity and heroine of Equestria, Rarity was thrilled to accept Luna's offer to become part of her campaign for promoting thestral rights. Business at the Manehattan Boutique had grown slow, and she was excited to see the glamour of Canterlot once again. What she didn't expect, however, is to become a part of the nation's collapse into civil war and the return of Nightmare Moon.
But Rarity understands that Nightmare Moon is still Luna. That she is still her friend, who saw no other choice after all her attempts to give batponies their place under the Moon. And thus Rarity made her difficult choice to support the Lunarist takeover. Ponies whisper in the dark, saying that she has been forcefully recruited, a mere slave of the Nightmare. Anypony who has interacted with Rarity, however, can tell that she has not changed at all. Her inspiration and passion for creating exquisite clothing has not waned at all, and she regularly contributes to the newly made charity organisations. She was surprised to be offered the place as the leader of a subservient Crystal Empire, but Rarity does her job gladly and with great flair!

2)Celestia/Daybreaker: Outside of a nightmare/dream, she never "happens" in canon (not that we're told, at least). there's a few alternate dimensions in the comic in which she DID went Daybreaker though.
Could've sworn one of the official MLP things I saw when I was looking for "quick summaries" for the parts I didn't watch implied Daybreaker was a thing at one point. Maybe not. Could've thought it was official but in reality it was a fanfiction or something. If I remember it, I'll look it up to check, but otherwise I'll just assume you guys know better than me because you objectively do on matters of canon.

*Do want to apologize if I'm talking too much about EaW. It's my main point of reference so it's most of what I do have to talk about here when there hasn't been an update for a while. I'll stop if it is annoying you guys or Questor
 
Well I hope we can avoid either of them rising in future (and that we don't have a scenario well they both rise up at the same time cause that well suck to deal with. )
 
Sorry, I got excited talking about the other parts of your post, Pittauro, that I forgot to address the parts directed to me! :D

It's reasonable to imagine it should be possible to come up with dream-defenses, but I doubt they can be mass produced. Not easily, at least.

So, you might be able to protect king/generals/spymaster, but that leaves...well, everyone else vulnerable.

Just how long will soldiers march and fight when they're not allowed a single hour of restful sleep?
That depends on how far-reaching her abilities can actually travel. I was under the idea she can't affect dreams en-masse, but rather has to individually go into each dream to affect them. Even with time distortion of dreams and a lot of magical ability, she probably can't (or at least won't) go into the dreams of hundreds of thousands of troops to leave every or almost every single one vulnerable.

My impression of her abilities is that her reputation for being fearful is based on the "what-if". Dictators don't need to carry people off to stop dissent. Rather, they need to make people afraid that they will be carried off unless "insert course here". It's partially propaganda, in the sense that she theoretically has the capability but might not always have to use it. If you create the fear of something bad happening - like nightmares - then it will become self-fulfilling as morale becomes lower and more fearful of said bad things happening. That in turn creates the effect intended without having to individually affect every single one.

Therefore, should the basis of my thought of her only affecting individual dreams be true rather than being able to just cast some giant shadow over a collective consciousness, then we'd really only need to protect key individuals and not entire armies. That, along with a healthy dose of propaganda and other things to keep morale high enough among the ordinary soldiery should be sufficient to "snuff out the nightmare" as it were (pun intended :p)

Also I thought we were talking about who WE'd face, not Equestria, we MIGHT be able to come up with runic amulets of dream-warding, and I imagine the Protectorate might be protected thanks to the Crysteal Heart, but that still leaves a lot of people's dreams defenseless.
Apologies for my vagueness. I know we can probably create wards, but I was speaking of Equestria because I was basing off the assumption of unicorns having some kind of spell for "good dreams" or "mental protection" or whatever that could already be used or modified for such a Nightmarish event rather than have us create something from scratch. I should have clarified what I was speaking from. My bad!
 
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Could've sworn one of the official MLP things I saw when I was looking for "quick summaries" for the parts I didn't watch implied Daybreaker was a thing at one point. Maybe not. Could've thought it was official but in reality it was a fanfiction or something. If I remember it, I'll look it up to check, but otherwise I'll just assume you guys know better than me because you objectively do on matters of canon.

*Do want to apologize if I'm talking too much about EaW. It's my main point of reference so it's most of what I do have to talk about here when there hasn't been an update for a while. I'll stop if it is annoying you guys or Questor
Personally I find the EaW info interesting. I'm not a fan of the original game, so I don't have much interest in trying it, but it offers a decent idea of "what-ifs" scenarios.

I don't think Questor is taking much from it, so I don't think it's necessarily too relevant... but I've been wrong before, and in any case it's as valid as any other fanon material, and I've mentioned those as well when they felt relevant anyway.

About Daybreaker, in the actual cartoon it ONLY appeared in a dream (episode in which Starlight Glimmer swapped the princesses cutie marks to have them experience each other's difficulties and duties), and while patrolling the dream-world Celestia basically has a nightmare and faces "Daybreaker" (AND also Nightmare Moon).

Now, it might be that Daybreaker was actually a thing in Celestia's past, and THAT is why she dreamt of it. If we accept the comics, she DID meet Daybreaker in other dimensions. and, again, fanon sometime has it that the "nightmare" form is sort of an alternate personality hidden inside an Alicorn, waiting for them to fall to darkness...

Or it might simply be that it's just a nightmare, based on her memories of Nightmare Moon and her mind going "but what if it happened to me?"

MLP is so vague in the nature/possibilities of magic and alicorns that it's really just up to Questor.

That depends on how far-reaching her abilities can actually travel. I was under the idea she can't affect dreams en-masse, but rather has to individually go into each dream to affect them. Even with time distortion of dreams and a lot of magical ability, she probably can't (or at least won't) go into the dreams of hundreds of thousands of troops to leave every or almost every single one vulnerable.

My impression of her abilities is that her reputation for being fearful is based on the "what-if". Dictators don't need to carry people off to stop dissent. Rather, they need to make people afraid that they will be carried off unless "insert course here". It's partially propaganda, in the sense that she theoretically has the capability but might not always have to use it. If you create the fear of something bad happening - like nightmares - then it will become self-fulfilling as morale becomes lower and more fearful of said bad things happening. That in turn creates the effect intended without having to individually affect every single one.

Therefore, should the basis of my thought of her only affecting individual dreams be true rather than being able to just cast some giant shadow over a collective consciousness, then we'd really only need to protect key individuals and not entire armies. That, along with a healthy dose of propaganda and other things to keep morale high enough among the ordinary soldiery should be sufficient to "snuff out the nightmare" as it were (pun intended :p)
mh... fair points. I have a few things to mention though.

1) in terms of reach: We can at the very least presume her minimum range is Canterlot to Ponyville. More likely than not, it covers all of Equestria.

If we assume she was trapped in the Changeling hive when she went into Starlight's dream (when, somehow, the changelings stopped her and got her back from that dream, possibly due to her being in a pod and/or as a side-effect of the Magic-nullifying obsidian throne), her range probably covers Hive-to Ponyville distance too, with the Hive presumably being decently far away from Equestria itself.

2)Luna seems to be able to enter only a dream at a time... though, as you mention, time is not quite consistent in dreams, so it would make sense for there to be some kind of time-dilation in the dreamrealm.

There's two more abilities she shows in the show, though. One is mostly meaningless: She can apparently "fuse" dreams together, allowing multiple people to dream a shared dream. She does it for Ponyville once. It seemed to be very trying though, so it's probably not much more than a city-scale ability at best. Maybe more as Nightmare Moon, as Nightmare forms seem to be a bit stronger, but I don't think it would make for a meaningful difference.

THe second ability is more interesting/has more potential: She can apparently create "dream entities" (the Tantabus in the show), capable of inflicting nightmares on ponies.

This entity, once it went rogue, went from dream to dream (if it's in your dream, and you dream of someone else, it can go in THEIR dream), and nearly managed to cross into the real world.

Now, we don't know how dangerous it would have been if it managed to cross (the implication is that it would have been quite dangerous), not do we know how easy it is for Luna to create such entities (she only made the one (that we know of), and only to inflict nightmares on herself as a form of self-inflicted punishment (basically the mlp version of cutting herself, really), but if she made one, presumably she could make more.

...all of this to say that she could, in theory, create entities to invade her enemies dreams, instead of having to do it all by herself.

Apologies for my vagueness. I know we can probably create wards, but I was speaking of Equestria because I was basing off the assumption of unicorns having some kind of spell for "good dreams" or "mental protection" or whatever that could already be used or modified for such a Nightmarish event rather than have us create something from scratch. I should have clarified what I was speaking from. My bad!
maybe, maybe not. It's never really clear just what unicorn magic can do.

Or to be more precise: Unicorn magic can apparently do basically anything... but it's never clear if an appropriate spell already exist.

And even in that case, it's only a tiny minority of unicorns that actually study advanced spells, so, even if a dream-warding spell existed, it could very easily be known/usable by very few unicorns.

ANd, of course, there's also a chance that dream-magic is an exclusive talent of Luna, and nobody ever develop dream-affecting spells before her.
 
1) in terms of reach: We can at the very least presume her minimum range is Canterlot to Ponyville. More likely than not, it covers all of Equestria.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by "reach" there. If I meant physical range, I would have put it in its own paragraph. The rest of that paragraph gave context that I was merely speaking of the scale i.e. how many dreams can be entered and influenced at a time.

Dream worlds are typically separate or more mystical/spiritual styles of realms so I am currently assuming traveling through dreams is unlimited distance as long as you know where you want to go as my baseline. Who knows? Maybe there's a physical limit, but I wasn't presuming there is such a limit.

Not gonna say anything about the rest because I don't have anything else to say. It's informative and insightful so I rated it as informative.
 
1)Luna/Nightmare Moon: the canon part is that she felt ignored and undervalued, and this caused her to "rebel" out of jealousy, wishing ponies to appreciate her night.

THAT is the only canon part from the cartoon show.
Actually one episode also showed the moment via a flashback potion of when she 'fell'.



I would say there was some magical repercussions involved that would explain the transformation triggering right after she solar eclipsed, possibly from the dissonance of going against her role in the day/night cycle or something.
 
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Actually one episode also showed the moment via a flashback potion of when she 'fell'.



I would say there was some magical repercussions involved that would explain the transformation triggering right after she solar eclipsed, possibly from the dissonance of going against her role in the day/light cycle or something.

uh. I actually forgot that bit.

yeah, that's a reasonable theory. Of course, the scene itself doesn't give much facts.

What we see is that Luna FIRST decides to impose her night. THEN, she becomes Nightmare Moon.

She also seems to be a bit surprised at her change, so it's probably not fully voluntary.
 
uh. I actually forgot that bit.

yeah, that's a reasonable theory. Of course, the scene itself doesn't give much facts.

What we see is that Luna FIRST decides to impose her night. THEN, she becomes Nightmare Moon.

She also seems to be a bit surprised at her change, so it's probably not fully voluntary.
I said something along those lines by mentioning that Equestria in canon warred with the Crystal Empire.
It's been a bit so straight up this bit is Speculation they pushed him back and Luna got into a personal Duel with Sombra was she wounded,Cursed and before she could Kill him He takes the Empire and himself out of time.

The Nightmare War happens after the above is a result of the Curse that is insidious it plays on your fears and wants amplifiying them feeding on them until It's in the Drivers seat.
Yeah it played her until it got into the drivers seat and then the fight likely killed Dozens of ponies.
Castles tend to be very heavly populated and beams of death flying around Smashing stone walls well.

 
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