Something to keep in mind is that while the Equestrian religion will inevitably spread to the Empire we probably shouldn't go out of our way to acknowledge Luna and Celestia as actual deities since that's kind of the type of thing that destabilises a nation
If anything now is kind of the perfect time to help out the Imperial Cult to help stamp down on that a little, plus they've been patiently waiting their turn for years now
Something to keep in mind is that while the Equestrian religion will inevitably spread to the Empire we probably shouldn't go out of our way to acknowledge Luna and Celestia as actual deities since that's kind of the type of thing that destabilises a nation
If anything now is kind of the perfect time to help out the Imperial Cult to help stamp down on that a little, plus they've been patiently waiting their turn for years now
I don't think it was ever explicitely mentioned they have a religion about them.
And really, that kind of religion is pretty common right now.
We have
1)The Imperial Cult
2)The Lady of the Lake
3)Koryu is sort of considered divine as well, as the last of the heavenly dragons (even if their official religion seems more about nature spirits)
Acknowledging an hypothetical Alicorn religion would basically mean acknowledging as our equal, and little more. We were even acknowledged by the Crystal Heart, which I suppose would basically make Garrick and Gabriella sort of Crystal Saints too...
And really, that kind of religion is pretty common right now.
We have
1)The Imperial Cult
2)The Lady of the Lake
3)Koryu is sort of considered divine as well, as the last of the heavenly dragons (even if their official religion seems more about nature spirits)
Acknowledging an hypothetical Alicorn religion would basically mean acknowledging as our equal, and little more. We were even acknowledged by the Crystal Heart, which I suppose would basically make Garrick and Gabriella sort of Crystal Saints too...
The major difference between an Equestrian religion and the ones we already have is that the former would proclaim the heads of state of a foreign nation as literal deities
The Imperial Cult venerates us and even then iirc @Questor has said that most of them don't actually think Garrick is a god, they just believe that he's the epitome of what all Griffons should be like
The Church of the Lady of the Lakes doesn't worship the Queen, she's just their head of church and for all the Neighponese venerate Koryu their religion is based around spirits and is uniquely suited to incorporating other religions as a result
The issue with going out of way to help consolidate an Equestrian religion is that it would basically be a state sanctioned way of saying "These two foreign heads of state that are still alive and can directly tell their worshippers what to do are deities"
We should absolutely do it at some point but we'd probably be better off supporting our own followers first
I'm fairly sure it's been at least implied before but I may be wrong
The major difference between an Equestrian religion and the ones we already have is that the former would proclaim the heads of state of a foreign nation as literal deities
The Imperial Cult venerates us and even then iirc @Questor has said that most of them don't actually think Garrick is a god, they just believe that he's the epitome of what all Griffons should be like
The Church of the Lady of the Lakes doesn't worship the Queen, she's just their head of church and for all the Neighponese venerate Koryu their religion is based around spirits and is uniquely suited to incorporating other religions as a result
The issue with going out of way to help consolidate an Equestrian religion is that it would basically be a state sanctioned way of saying "These two foreign heads of state that are still alive and can directly tell their worshippers what to do are deities"
We should absolutely do it at some point but we'd probably be better off supporting our own followers first
Since they currently lack a strong religious influence exporting one or more of the religions in our nation after trade opens up might be a good idea. It would help them resist cultural subversion from Canterbury via the 'lady of the lakes' cult if there are other religions competing for converts. Of course, we'd have to make it look like it was just a natural result of social interactions between their people and ours instead of something we encouraged to happen.
Okay but your point was that if they decided they wanted something we have then our only option is to just give it to them and based on what I know about them if there are still major world ending threatens out there then they'll eventually solve them so we might as well stop trying if they're that goddamn powerful
I mean, "apparently has total control over the sun and the moon" is a bit more than a nuclear power
more than one could make sense. (if the rest of the world is "normal" that fits). Because if the princesses were powerful enough to fly around the entire planet and see what is going on, they would not have to have expeditions like they just had.
unless the speeds required for going through space would be too dangerous for life on the planet.
I do have a suspension of disbelief, but I don't think the princesses' power goes for the whole world.
I highly doubt that Equeatria has it's own personal day and night cycle divorced from the rest of the world.
Also remember that they currently live in the area that will become known as the Everfree. We do not know how dangerous the area is or how its weather is.
I'm 99% sure that the Everfree is just divorced from the jurisdiction of pony magic to control the environment and not the sun and the moon.
Also, funny idea for an omake, Gawain having a meal with his mom who is basically asking him when he is going to have kids with Isabelle just to fuck with him for her own amusement.
more than one could make sense. (if the rest of the world is "normal" that fits). Because if the princesses were powerful enough to fly around the entire planet and see what is going on, they would not have to have expeditions like they just had.
unless the speeds required for going through space would be too dangerous for life on the planet.
I do have a suspension of disbelief, but I don't think the princesses' power goes for the whole world.
There are plenty of possible explanations for "how can they control the sun and moon?".
For example, maybe Equestria's sun and moon are both a lot closer, and a lot smaller. Maybe they're artificial, created by some powerful magic in the past.
Maybe the sun is more like a ball of magic than an actual star. Maybe Celestia and the unicorns are NOT using their power to move it, but they're instead accessing its reservoir of magic, and using it to move it.
Maybe they actually ARE that powerful, but only when doing this specific thing. It's basically their very specific superpower.
In any case, it's unlikely they only control sun and moon "over Equestria".
I just discovered this story yesterday, and after our... ill-fated expedition I wanted to do an omake. Here goes!
Omake: Under the snow, a What If scenario
Had the expedition teams gone far enough North, they would have come upon a new world entirely.
A raging blizzard filled with horrors, creatures of the ice and snow, even several other wyverns.
Yet pushing past it bore a unique sight. No ice trolls, no spirits of cold and death, no empires lead by a dark mage, no wyverns, just a single sheet of ice stretching into infinity.
It is there that they would find this new world.
They advanced onto the ice sheet, and found that the moment they set foot upon it, the weather calmed. Not outside it, no, it was as though the ice sheet was the eye of the storm. Loose snow covered it, almost a foot deep to three feet in places, with no trees or animals to disturb the uniform white. There weren't even any snowdrifts, not noticeably. The snow remained almost perfectly level in all places they could see.
Compared to the howling blizzard it appeared a paradise. While they had been pursued, the moment they crossed that invisible border their followers gave up the chase.
None of the creatures that inhabited the north dared to trespass upon the Eldest Cold. Their prey was cast from their minds the moment they crossed, written off as not worth waiting for.
The expedition leaders set up a base camp bordering the blizzard wall, as the divide between calm and raging became known. Despite the geographical impossibility, the local climate remained stable at barely under the freezing point, while beyond the blizzard wall, the storms brought temperatures of -50 degrees or worse.
Yet the longer they stayed, the more they worried. There were no tracks anywhere, none of the flying scouts had managed to find so much as a twig poking through the snow.
Days passed as the quartermaster kept a careful watch on the food stores, ensuring they would have enough to safely return to the Empire.
Each day, teams of scouts were dispatched, surveying from on high, taking samples from different areas, and checking for animals.
Nothing.
Yet the feeling of worry persisted.
On day six, a gryphon was found in his tent, unmoving. His body was ice-cold to the touch, and while his eyes tracked things beneath a thin layer of frost, they didn't track visible things, and no amount of heat or fire could melt him free. In the end, one of the gryphons accidentally tripped into him, shattering the ice surrounding his form.
He went ballistic, killing three before being put down. His corpse vanished before it could be buried.
The feeling of worry increased.
The next day there were two frozen gryphons, and the scouting teams were called to a halt. A watch was placed, both on the camp and on the frozen duo, whose eyes flicked around as though they were following something invisible.
The next day three had frozen.
And the two frozen gryphons from before were gone, vanished between the space of a second.
A scout went missing in the morning. His gear was brought with him, along with a day's worth of food.
The camp leaders debated the pros and cons of staying on the ice versus risking the storm and going back.
The next day all those who had voted to remain were frozen.
As the camp was packing up, the missing scout flew in as though Discord was on his tail. His eyes were wide and manic. He shouted to clear away the snow beneath the camp, that it had to go or they were lost.
Confused, several gryphons begrudgingly accepted upon seeing his panic. He was a levelheaded griff, a respected member of the scouts. While he had little actual authority, he had earned his comrades' trust.
Once the snow was wiped away revealing only white ice, he called on everyone to return to the sky.
The instant they flew, the ice turned black. Then it was ringed in white as it dilated.
Horror set in as they realized what it was. An eye, the pupil alone larger than their camp.
They were not standing on an ice sheet.
They stood upon the buried remains of a primordial creature, frozen and trapped beneath the ice.
Yet it was not quite dead, it's mere presence enough to drive mortals mad, to engulf them in ice, and drag them into its prison to feast.
The expedition teams fled, back into the storms, leaving behind all they could to speed up their journey. One by one they fell, either picked off by creatures, struck down by nature, or froze just as their unfortunate comrades had.
Two gryphons returned to the empire, manic and raving.
"We brought it with us. It's biding its time now, for when we are in the place where we can do the most damage, can spread its influence the best. I refuse, beast! I will not be your tool!"
-Captain Gwydion Hardluck, instants before freezing while attempting suicide.
The captain would vanish from max security storage mere hours later.
The final gryphon was the scout who had discovered the truth of the ice. He resigned from the scouts following prolonged therapy, and would spend the rest of his life in his house, swaddled in blankets and fearing the cold.
Sometimes he would talk with someone that wasn't there, accuse him of finding this funny, demand what his game was, or even beg him to just get it over with.
Klip Windwalker would outlive his children, and some of their children, his lifespan unnaturally long. On the day he finally passed, he looked like he had died laughing.
His diary was open on the table, "I realized it. He doesn't have enough of a hold on me. I spent almost all my time in the air, out of contact with the ice. His power sunk deep enough to connect to me, to give me the visions, to try and coerce me to return, but not enough to freeze me like the rest. I don't have to worry anymore. I can let go."
His body was cremated in a pyre as he requested. The flames burned blue, and there was a gryphon none recognized standing at the edge of the clearing, his head bowed in mutual respect. He vanished before anyone could speak with him.
The last page of Klip's diary held a simple passage.
"The Smooze sleeps beneath the ice. Never return. It was the devil's own luck that we didn't accidentally release it. It did this to us, almost fifty of us entered that damnable sheet, and it was asleep and imprisoned! Gods help us if it gets free, if it ever wakes up.
What is not dead may eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
I wanted to go eldritch horror with this, but I don't think I quite got there. The idea was that the ice was the memetic hazard, the infection vector. The more time you spent touching it, the more it got it's hooks into you. After a certain point, the infection couldn't be stopped and would grow even off the ice. Once you hit a critical threshold it would be able to freeze you and call you to it, feeding. The eyes were representative of its eyes moving beneath the ice.
I just discovered this story yesterday, and after our... ill-fated expedition I wanted to do an omake. Here goes!
Omake: Under the snow, a What If scenario
Had the expedition teams gone far enough North, they would have come upon a new world entirely.
A raging blizzard filled with horrors, creatures of the ice and snow, even several other wyverns.
Yet pushing past it bore a unique sight. No ice trolls, no spirits of cold and death, no empires lead by a dark mage, no wyverns, just a single sheet of ice stretching into infinity.
It is there that they would find this new world.
They advanced onto the ice sheet, and found that the moment they set foot upon it, the weather calmed. Not outside it, no, it was as though the ice sheet was the eye of the storm. Loose snow covered it, almost a foot deep to three feet in places, with no trees or animals to disturb the uniform white. There weren't even any snowdrifts, not noticeably. The snow remained almost perfectly level in all places they could see.
Compared to the howling blizzard it appeared a paradise. While they had been pursued, the moment they crossed that invisible border their followers gave up the chase.
None of the creatures that inhabited the north dared to trespass upon the Eldest Cold. Their prey was cast from their minds the moment they crossed, written off as not worth waiting for.
The expedition leaders set up a base camp bordering the blizzard wall, as the divide between calm and raging became known. Despite the geographical impossibility, the local climate remained stable at barely under the freezing point, while beyond the blizzard wall, the storms brought temperatures of -50 degrees or worse.
Yet the longer they stayed, the more they worried. There were no tracks anywhere, none of the flying scouts had managed to find so much as a twig poking through the snow.
Days passed as the quartermaster kept a careful watch on the food stores, ensuring they would have enough to safely return to the Empire.
Each day, teams of scouts were dispatched, surveying from on high, taking samples from different areas, and checking for animals.
Nothing.
Yet the feeling of worry persisted.
On day six, a gryphon was found in his tent, unmoving. His body was ice-cold to the touch, and while his eyes tracked things beneath a thin layer of frost, they didn't track visible things, and no amount of heat or fire could melt him free. In the end, one of the gryphons accidentally tripped into him, shattering the ice surrounding his form.
He went ballistic, killing three before being put down. His corpse vanished before it could be buried.
The feeling of worry increased.
The next day there were two frozen gryphons, and the scouting teams were called to a halt. A watch was placed, both on the camp and on the frozen duo, whose eyes flicked around as though they were following something invisible.
The next day three had frozen.
And the two frozen gryphons from before were gone, vanished between the space of a second.
A scout went missing in the morning. His gear was brought with him, along with a day's worth of food.
The camp leaders debated the pros and cons of staying on the ice versus risking the storm and going back.
The next day all those who had voted to remain were frozen.
As the camp was packing up, the missing scout flew in as though Discord was on his tail. His eyes were wide and manic. He shouted to clear away the snow beneath the camp, that it had to go or they were lost.
Confused, several gryphons begrudgingly accepted upon seeing his panic. He was a levelheaded griff, a respected member of the scouts. While he had little actual authority, he had earned his comrades' trust.
Once the snow was wiped away revealing only white ice, he called on everyone to return to the sky.
The instant they flew, the ice turned black. Then it was ringed in white as it dilated.
Horror set in as they realized what it was. An eye, the pupil alone larger than their camp.
They were not standing on an ice sheet.
They stood upon the buried remains of a primordial creature, frozen and trapped beneath the ice.
Yet it was not quite dead, it's mere presence enough to drive mortals mad, to engulf them in ice, and drag them into its prison to feast.
The expedition teams fled, back into the storms, leaving behind all they could to speed up their journey. One by one they fell, either picked off by creatures, struck down by nature, or froze just as their unfortunate comrades had.
Two gryphons returned to the empire, manic and raving.
"We brought it with us. It's biding its time now, for when we are in the place where we can do the most damage, can spread its influence the best. I refuse, beast! I will not be your tool!"
-Captain Gwydion Hardluck, instants before freezing while attempting suicide.
The captain would vanish from max security storage mere hours later.
The final gryphon was the scout who had discovered the truth of the ice. He resigned from the scouts following prolonged therapy, and would spend the rest of his life in his house, swaddled in blankets and fearing the cold.
Sometimes he would talk with someone that wasn't there, accuse him of finding this funny, demand what his game was, or even beg him to just get it over with.
Klip Windwalker would outlive his children, and some of their children, his lifespan unnaturally long. On the day he finally passed, he looked like he had died laughing.
His diary was open on the table, "I realized it. He doesn't have enough of a hold on me. I spent almost all my time in the air, out of contact with the ice. His power sunk deep enough to connect to me, to give me the visions, to try and coerce me to return, but not enough to freeze me like the rest. I don't have to worry anymore. I can let go."
His body was cremated in a pyre as he requested. The flames burned blue, and there was a gryphon none recognized standing at the edge of the clearing, his head bowed in mutual respect. He vanished before anyone could speak with him.
The last page of Klip's diary held a simple passage.
"The Smooze sleeps beneath the ice. Never return. It was the devil's own luck that we didn't accidentally release it. It did this to us, almost fifty of us entered that damnable sheet, and it was asleep and imprisoned! Gods help us if it gets free, if it ever wakes up.
What is not dead may eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
I wanted to go eldritch horror with this, but I don't think I quite got there. The idea was that the ice was the memetic hazard, the infection vector. The more time you spent touching it, the more it got it's hooks into you. After a certain point, the infection couldn't be stopped and would grow even off the ice. Once you hit a critical threshold it would be able to freeze you and call you to it, feeding. The eyes were representative of its eyes moving beneath the ice.
Hmm...maybe work out something with Merlin to create a memory imprint of some kind, Jedi Holocron/Jor-El AI style? Immortality of wisdom and knowledge, if not of the flesh.
Hmm...maybe work out something with Merlin to create a memory imprint of some kind, Jedi Holocron/Jor-El AI style? Immortality of wisdom and knowledge, if not of the flesh.
Could whomever operates the quest's TVTropes page add it to the list of quests with their own TVTropes page on SV's TVTropes page? It is a bit of an oversight that I noticed.
Yeesh, we don't need to simp for the canon characters guys. At least not until we have our own affairs in order and can afford to throw a little cash around for goodwill.
like, we barely even know what the sisters are like in this quest and everyone is already trying to meta game the Alicorns.
Yeesh, we don't need to simp for the canon characters guys. At least not until we have our own affairs in order and can afford to throw a little cash around for goodwill.
like, we barely even know what the sisters are like in this quest and everyone is already trying to meta game the Alicorns.
What we do know is that they claim to control celestial bodies like the sun and moon. They also claim to be the ones who defeated Discord. If they aren't lying, that means Equestria is the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear power. Thankfully we share an enemy in common and have made the best first impression we possibly could. Given the current situation, why wouldn't we double down on diplomacy to seek better relations with them?
What we do know is that they claim to control celestial bodies like the sun and moon. They also claim to be the ones who defeated Discord. If they aren't lying, that means Equestria is the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear power. Thankfully we share an enemy in common and have made the best first impression we possibly could. Given the current situation, why wouldn't we double down on diplomacy to seek better relations with them?
Eh, while we would seek better relations regardless since "immediate hostility on first contact" isn't the norm for our diplomatic corps, both of those claims wouldn't really be an incentive to want to double down on diplomacy. Rulers make all kinds of claims all the time to build cults of personality or legitimize their rule (or both), so such claims would at least be privately held in doubt even if publicly accepted to not offend them. WE have the foresight of knowing both claims are true, but the characters do not.
Like, immediately believing them is like the equivalent of dropping down on your knees and making your country a vassal to Old Egypt just because the pharaoh told you they are the incarnate of Ra/Horus/Aten. Not saying that we are obviously going to subordinate our country, so much as saying that claims are not typically accepted at face value immediately.
Eh, while we would seek better relations regardless since "immediate hostility on first contact" isn't the norm for our diplomatic corps, both of those claims wouldn't really be an incentive to want to double down on diplomacy. Rulers make all kinds of claims all the time to build cults of personality or legitimize their rule (or both), so such claims would at least be privately held in doubt even if publicly accepted to not offend them. WE have the foresight of knowing both claims are true, but the characters do not.
Like, immediately believing them is like the equivalent of dropping down on your knees and making your country a vassal to Old Egypt just because the pharaoh told you they are the incarnate of Ra/Horus/Aten. Not saying that we are obviously going to subordinate our country, so much as saying that claims are not typically accepted at face value immediately.
to be fair, checking if they actually CAN move sun and moon is very easy. just ask them to, for example, have a sunset take exactly x seconds, or show us a sun that suddenly stops going down for 5 seconds, before starting going down again, or something like that.
Minimal disruption, undeniable proof.
Discord is harder to prove. There's the statue if they're willing to show it to us (though we might not be able to feel to sense anything weird with it, there might be some witnesses (which are inherently unreliable as they're their subjects), there's the elements of harmony themselves (if they're willing to show them, AND if we can sense anything from them), and there's the "vision" from Queen Chevaline (which is suspect, as she might or might not have received it from the changeling queen).
Again, canonically, before Celestia and Luna, the sun and moon were moved by groups of unicorns working together. Celestia and Luna are just really powerful to do it on their own and it is their special talent. Asking them to demonstrate moving them is like asking a basketball player to shoot a hoop. You know they can do it, why are you wasting everyone's time?
