Ender is terrifying. Captivating as fuck (I wasn't kidding about Ender's Game being an absolute masterpiece) but not someone who anyone sane should try to emulate.
Can you deny that it wasn't effective and honestly say that other courses of action would have lead to him not having to hurt anyone else as effectively as that single action did?

In that single moment he garnered a reputation of someone who, if you fight, will hurt you and hurt you badly thus ensuring nobody would dare fight him again and avoid any chances of him getting hurt by the other students and having to hurt anyone else.

When you get past the brutality of the act itself it is actually surprisingly a good thing overall compared to the alternative. One greatly injured person or a stream of injured people (sometimes even the same person) which will likely escalate until he is killed or injured severely enough to no longer be eligible for the program.

What is the individual pain and injury in the face of the safety and health of the many?
 
Yeah it'll be interesting once we find Equestria, with the time being almost 1000 years before canon.
I'm looking forward to when we meet Equestria. I expect they'll probably be pretty friendly, but I shudder to think what might happen if they're not. A war against 2 people with that much power would be horrifying. Either way, I think meeting them will be very interesting indeed.

Can you deny that it wasn't effective and honestly say that other courses of action would have lead to him not having to hurt anyone else as effectively as that single action did?
I think the point he was trying to make is that while it was very clearly effective, the same effect probably could have been achieved without killing the kid. For example, see the way Bean deals with Achilles in Ender's Shadow.
An interesting side note, the way that the higher ups in Battleschool shelter Ender from the consequences of his (lethal) actions is very similar to the way large organizations shelter sex abusers. Both times he killed someone, they immediately moved him to a new place, covered up what happened by saying that Bonzo was iced and that the first kid (Stilson, I think?) was hospitalized, and did not punish Ender in any way. It's only years later that this all comes to light, with the military court martial of Colonel Graff. Even Ender didn't realize that he killed them, because the adults never told him (and because they stepped in so fast after Bonzo's death that Ender didn't have time to check for signs of life even if he had thought about it).
I'm not sure if this parallel was intended, but it's kind of interesting to think about.
 
Can you deny that it wasn't effective and honestly say that other courses of action would have lead to him not having to hurt anyone else as effectively as that single action did?
How is that even in question? Ender murdered an elementary school student! He's a child and he premeditatedly attacked another child with the intent of causing life threatening injuries! Of course it was ludicrously over the line!

Elementary school does not run on prison rules, you don't have to pick a fight with the biggest guy there to get people to leave you alone.

Even if Ender was right and the bully would foment revenge for a minor injury he didn't have to escalate to deliberately crippling him. Badly breaking his arm or leg would have gotten the exact same message across without ending a life.

That's a big "if" though. Ender is a borderline sociopathic genius in a family of another borderline sociopathic genius and a budding serial killer (seriously, Peter tortures animals to death, that's one of the biggest serial killer red flags) genius. His understanding of how mean people react to things is irrevocably tainted by his experiences with Peter. A normal child isn't going to embark on a campaign of harassment that would culminate in a legitimate threat to health and safety. Peter would, but Peter is a monster.
 
I'm looking forward to when we meet Equestria. I expect they'll probably be pretty friendly, but I shudder to think what might happen if they're not

Depends on when. There were several points where certian individuals tried to take it over. If we arrive during one such instance we might end up in a fight.

I think the point he was trying to make is that while it was very clearly effective, the same effect probably could have been achieved without killing the kid.

Ender was not trying to kill him. Ender was trying to hurt him and make it visible and leave a lasting impression and failed to gauge his own strength and the other kid's frailty.


Ender murdered an elementary school student!

See above. You seem to think ender was trying to kill him. Ender was shocked and dully horrified at what happened.

Also you are forgetting the culture of that book. It is a subtle almost constant training soldiers for survival and to ensure humanity would survive the next invasion.

Heck, the school they were at was a MILITARY TRAINING FACILITY!! You think students in there wouldnt die on occasion from things like misfired weapons, people screwing around with things they shouldn't, etc?

Look, you are taking one scene in the book, ripping away ender's own intentions and his reaction when he learned what happened and applying it to his entire character. Ender is far from the 2 dimensional psychopath you try and paint him as.

EDIT: And your usage of ender's older brother, who IS the psychopath you are trying to paint ender as is, just off and you completely ignore his older sister who is compassionate and kind.

Ender is stated as the middle ground between the ruthless and cruel psychopath that his brother is and the empathetic and kind pacifist his sister is.

He is, in dnd terms, a true nuetral.

EDIT 2: You also seem to assume Ender has never dealt with "mean people". He went to school in a military training facility. He was well socialized beyond his own family.

Again, i attribute this to you taking a single aspect of the book and paint it accross the entire thing, ignoring context and more.

If you are going to bash ender, then at least get your facts straight and ensure you leave as much bias as possible at the door because otherwise it taints your analysis.

EDIT 3: You also are STILL thinking i was originally reffering to the shower scene.

To make it more accessible for everyone let me point out what i am talking about via the movie.

Watch the first ten minutes. THAT was the scene i was reffering to.

EDIT 4: Heck, Ender constantly worries about being like peter. His WORST FEAR is to be like peter. And Ender has incredible empathy, any time he fights someone or goes against them he stands in their place and understands them.... and when he wins it hurts him as well.

You trying to make him out as a psychopath is sickening.
 
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Ender was not trying to kill him. Ender was trying to hurt him and make it visible and leave a lasting impression and failed to gauge his own strength and the other kid's frailty.
True. I think the point is that although Ender didn't want or try to kill them, he did so much damage that it ended up having that unintended effect. Likewise, acting similarly in war can sometimes have unintended side effects (like someone who was only committing a relatively small amount of troops suddenly taking you seriously and sending a lot more troops, or the international community labeling you a terrorist organization organization because of killing enemy civilians or POWs). It's good to win, and massive overkill can be extremely effective in achieving that. But it's also possible for it to backfire sometimes. If the adults hadn't protected Ender from learning of his enemies' deaths, he probably would would have had some pretty negative psychological problems as a consequence (greater psychological problems than he already had, anyway), and probably would have burned out long before he got to Command School. If he hadn't been brought to Battleschool, ending a fight by killing someone would likely have gotten him put in juvie for manslaughter.

Heck, the school they were at was a MILITARY TRAINING FACILITY!! You think students in there wouldnt die on occasion from things like misfired weapons, people screwing around with things they shouldn't, etc?
As a nitpick, I don't think they really had access to weapons that could kill during Battleschool. They used some kind of laser tag weapons in the battle room, which were designed so that they could only be useful for freezing suits. Those weapons were safe enough that when unarmored students attacked Ender's training session, Ender's group used frozen students as kinetic energy weapons instead of firing their weapons because the weapons wouldn't do much against enemies without suits. Bean actually looked for potential weapons he could use to protect Ender, but the closest thing he found was some mono-filament rope. If they had access to live weapons Bean probably would have started by trying to steal one of those. Also, I believe that it is implied that Pinual was the only Battleschool student other than Bonzo to die, although perhaps they were only referencing him as the only one to commit suicide.
It's much more likely that students died a lot in the school afterwards that trained less brilliant students to be infantry. They probably would have training with actual weapons there, and misfires would likely occur. Battleschool however, seemed to try to keep anything that could be even remotely dangerous away from the students, probably because otherwise half of them would have intentionally shot each other during target practice. The intensely competitive culture that Battleschool fostered is not a good place for sharp objects, let alone real weapons.

And yeah, Ender and Valentine are definitely not psychopaths. They're good people who are placed in terrible situations.
 
...Once i finish reading The way of the shaman's series i really need to give Ender's Game a read. Sounds very interesting. I'm not even sure if i watched the movie, though probably not
 
As a nitpick, I don't think they really had access to weapons that could kill during Battleschool
Actually, it was stated that using it on someone who was NOT wearing a battle suit could kill. Something about making the muscles contract so hard they tear.

Now imagine shooting that, say, at the lungs, heart, or a dozen other muscle related parts of the body which require muscle movement to function.

Also people keep assuming i am reffering to the shower scene. I am not.

The scene i was originally reffering to did NOT have ender killing anyone.

He sent them to the hospital with a few broken ribs but they were not dead.

If you want to see what i am reffering to remember the game and the bully near the very start of the book or the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Bully accused him of cheating, ender made sure to get away, had implant removed, and the bullies cornered him and tried to pick a fight. Ender tried to descalate and tried to get away but when it was clear they would not let him get away without a fight he knocked the bully down and kicked him while he was down until the kid was groaning in pain and unable to move.

The rest tried to gang up on him but ender used his actiona to scare the other bullies into letting him escape.


Once again I WAS NEVER TALKING ABOUT THE SHOWER SCENE AS AN EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW.

That was some other user's assumption that seems to have spread.

After that i kept trying to explain that ender was not a psychopath but is actually pretty damn empethetic and caring, he just isnt a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination.

People misconstrue his actions or latch onto what came to be ender's self admitted greatest regret.

He fears more than anything that he will become as cruel and merciless as his brother and actively tries to avoid being like him whenever he can.



Sorry for the rant, i just hate how people seem to judge characters without ever reading the book or getting so caught up on a single aspect they fail to acknowledge the rest.
 
Actually, it was stated that using it on someone who was NOT wearing a battle suit could kill. Something about making the muscles contract so hard they tear.
Wut.
Do you remember where this was mentioned? I must have missed or forgotten about it.

Also people keep assuming i am reffering to the shower scene. I am not.

The scene i was originally reffering to did NOT have ender killing anyone.

He sent them to the hospital with a few broken ribs but they were not dead.

If you want to see what i am reffering to remember the game and the bully near the very start of the book or the first 10 minutes of the movie.
I don't think anyone is assuming that you are talking only about the shower scene. The fight scene at the beginning is also lethal. The adults tell Ender and his family that Ender put the kid in the hospital, however it is revealed at the end (during Colonel Graff's court martial) that Ender did in fact kill the first kid as well as Bonzo.

Edit:
I did use the shower fight as a second example, but I recognize that it is separate from the fight at the beginning.

After that i kept trying to explain that ender was not a psychopath but is actually pretty damn empethetic and caring, he just isnt a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination.

People misconstrue his actions or latch onto what came to be ender's self admitted greatest regret.

He fears more than anything that he will become as cruel and merciless as his brother and actively tries to avoid being like him whenever he can.
True, Ender is not a psychopath. It's the results of his actions that are concerning, not his intentions. The results are that he won those fights and every fight after that (good), but also accidentally killed two people that he didn't mean to kill (bad). Overall, his intentions are good, but the results are a bit of a mixed bag.
 
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I dont think it was in the movie, but it was when ender was either looking over the pistol or when he was getting a run down on why you shouldnt mess with it outside a battle suit.
I believe I can summarize their issues. Actions have consequences both known and unforeseen . Ender also murdered an entire species. Ender killed two kids. He didn't know, but he did it, not holding back. Was it worth the short term or long term? His reactions and actions in the end of the book, not the movie, and speaker of the damned, which is the book the author liked more by the way, speak otherwise.

And, there is always another way. The simplest action is not always the best. Breaking Maretonia is all well and good, but what comes after? I would prefer to leave it in better condition than we found it.
 
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I would prefer to leave it in better condition than we found it.
Kind of hard to do without destroying their current economic system, destroying their culture, and either conquering and occupying it or aiding a bloody coup akin to the french revolution.

The issues their society has which makes it incompatible with ours are to deeply set for an easy or bloodless solution.
 
Kind of hard to do without destroying their current economic system, destroying their culture, and either conquering and occupying it or aiding a bloody coup akin to the french revolution.

The issues their society has which makes it incompatible with ours are to deeply set for an easy or bloodless solution.
Short and easy? Yes it is impossible. Long and hard? Worth it. Things take time, cultures don't change easily. Your right, it could be violent. But it doesn't have to be.
 
Short and easy? Yes it is impossible. Long and hard? Worth it. Things take time, cultures don't change easily. Your right, it could be violent. But it doesn't have to be.
No, it will.

People have this tendency to get really angry/violently "outspoken" when you start ripping their society and culture to bits because you dont like it.

The least bloody way is to make examples of the major visible leaders, the worst slave traders and owners, and other such individuals to cow the rest into submission to buy us time to enact the needed reforms.

Otherwise we will have to deal with nobles of the classic "backstabbing and poisoning" kind as they plot behind the scenes and uze the outrage from those who lost the most to fuel rebellion and dissention.

The key people said nobles would target would be the large farm owners, major brothels, large construction groups, transport moguls, etc as they would lose significant income from the loss of a cheap and disposable workforce.

If we are to avoid rebbellion against our rulings (no slavery is going to br a big sticking point due to their slave based economy) we will need either the public's support (unlikely due to their economy) or their fear of the consequences of breaking our ruling.

Of course, if you think you can untangle that huge economic issue that they rely on slaves for almost all the basic labor including, but unlikely limited to, farming, building, cleaning, cooking, hauling people and supplies, and more without inducing a natural hatred, creating a group dedicated to causing trouble, causing a violent coup, or a dozen other things then please tell me how.

I am actually kind of curious as to how you expect to solve that cluster f*ck
 
No, it will.

People have this tendency to get really angry/violently "outspoken" when you start ripping their society and culture to bits because you dont like it.

The least bloody way is to make examples of the major visible leaders, the worst slave traders and owners, and other such individuals to cow the rest into submission to buy us time to enact the needed reforms.

Otherwise we will have to deal with nobles of the classic "backstabbing and poisoning" kind as they plot behind the scenes and uze the outrage from those who lost the most to fuel rebellion and dissention.

The key people said nobles would target would be the large farm owners, major brothels, large construction groups, transport moguls, etc as they would lose significant income from the loss of a cheap and disposable workforce.

If we are to avoid rebbellion against our rulings (no slavery is going to br a big sticking point due to their slave based economy) we will need either the public's support (unlikely due to their economy) or their fear of the consequences of breaking our ruling.

Of course, if you think you can untangle that huge economic issue that they rely on slaves for almost all the basic labor including, but unlikely limited to, farming, building, cleaning, cooking, hauling people and supplies, and more without inducing a natural hatred, creating a group dedicated to causing trouble, causing a violent coup, or a dozen other things then please tell me how.

I am actually kind of curious as to how you expect to solve that cluster f*ck
I probably won't. But that's why this is a group effort.
 
Then why do you seem so insistent we can solve this peacefully?

The closest we could get is a tainted peace in which shadow and proxy wars occur or perhaps a cold war if we are particularly lucky and even that, historically, required both participants to have just come off of a large and bloody conflict that made war appear as very unnapealing to both sides as well as a mutually assured destruction plan in place.

Cold war is POSSIBLE without that but it would be unlikely to end in a very long stand off like it did IRL as we would lack those features.

More likely it would be an arms race until there was some accident or other thing to give a reason to attack and the arms race prior would have simply made the conflict more bloody and devestating.


Better we fight a war and occupy them after executing the upper brass of their government or we instigate and fund a coup to overturn it (which will likely be a bloody one as they eliminate those who could contest the new leaders and destroy dissent).

Those two seem the most likely outcomes. The coup would be the least bloody on our side IF IT WORKS while an invasion and occupation would be more work but so long as we win the invasion it is almost a garrunteed success.

The main issues are that a coup is not garrunteed to work, they are often very bloody, and may lead to an incredible amount of chaos (especially if the leaders of said coup are not competent).


While an occupation will likely breed bad will, will be expensive, and would require a lot of attention (though it would give us direct control over whoch direction the new government would develop)
 
@lockingbane @Questor
Memories of the Seas

A wave!

And another-- how many are there going to be???
That one was taller than our scouts could fly!

The rain kept on pouring and pouring, winds nearly blowing Steel Wing off balance.
"What do you see up there?!" I called out to him. No response.
"I SAID WHAT DO YOU SEE?!!?"
"nothing!" Was his response, barely heard over the howls of what we felt was impending doom. He started flying back, deciding this storm was not worth losing his wings over.
"We'd better find this Thing fast! The winds are getting stronger by the minute!" Even down on deck he had to yell to get his words out.
"Alright, I'll keep a watch!" I pulled up two harpoons, passing one to Wing. "Keep an eye on the stern."
Now, the rest of the crew had been positioned around the top of The Gray Rose, my late father's personal boat...

I... I'll save that story for another time.

Anyways! The crew was on watch, and everything was just noisy. For three days, we had been fighting this monster. The King's signature storm grew increasingly powerful until today, when the air felt it could cut skin, and the rain felt like buckets pouring from the sky. Tired, hungry, we pressed on.
We managed to get some good hits on the King, but he escaped each time we came close to finishing him off. Then we needed to track him down. Rinse and repeat.

Well not more! There would be no retreat this day!
He knew it, so did we.

And just as I began trotting towards the captain's cabin, Salt Tea cried out:
"HE'S HERE!!!"

And we felt it: the ship all of a sudden turned as if it were a foal's spinning top toy, but thankfully stopped when--
Barnacle Skipper, the young green earth pony holding his harpoon tight in hoof, screamed as he was thrown overboard by the shaking ship! Steel had flown down just in time to catch the terrified lad, while the older fisherpony pegasus lifted him back on deck, pressing against the winds.
The others held onto whatever they could, Salt Tea stabbing his harpoon into the deck to stabilize herself.

Then I saw it: the back of the beast.
Discord's nautical nightmare, the King of the Undertow.

It was the length of twenty ponies and had a maw that could fit ten ponies side by side, you wouldn't be blamed if you ran as far as you could. But we had no such luxury.
The winds blocked flight, and the waves were too strong.
This was it.

Hefting my harpoon, the touch its metal warm compared to the freezing rain, I slowly moved towards the bow, to get a better look at the monster.

There it was, just... staring at us.

It had four cat-like eyes, staring with hunger at its new meal. The spines on its back were sharp and made of the spines of who knows how many fish and other damnable creatures. Its maw hidden just below the waves as a hint of the chocolate teeth in its mouth oozed out, making the seawater a brown color.

Yes, this was the work of that mad spirit.

I had no time to waste. "Wing! Get your ass to pull him port side! Salt! Get your hooves on the wheel! Skip, come with me!"
The crew rushed around to their tasks, hoping that the speed would delay our demise. It did, actually. Steel Wing had picked up a few harpoons to lob at the King, just barely piercing the thick skin, which bled a colorful, bubbly...juice. It looked green, so I assumed it was cucumber juice, with how Discord operates.
Skip lobbed a few harpoons at the King, but despite his steadfastness, he didn't get any good hits, the rain muddying his aim.
I threw some spears from the deck towards the King, but they were mostly ineffective. I then switched to channeling electricity, but I needed to charge up.
Stupid me.

Suddenly, the King had disappeared beneath the surface.
We held our breaths, as the rain raged on around us.

Then, catastrophe.

The boat had split asunder, with the bow cracking off the rest of the ship, separating me from Barnacle Skipper. I was barely able to get out of the way, and looking at the scene unfolding before me, time seemed to slow down.

This was it.

I don't know what had happened, but the waves just spoke to me. Like, between the rising of the crest of a wave and its crashing into the Grayflower, I heard it: "Defeat comes from within".
It sounded like a familiar voice, but I couldn't dwell on that.
I knew exactly what I had to do. Or, my body did, at least. As if my legs had a mind of their own, I leapt towards the beast!

"What in the name o..."
"Holy moly! Cap!"
"what's she doing??"

Their voices became silenced as the world stood silent. For the brief second I flew through the air, rain pelting my back, I could see the exact path I had to go to end this. I closed my eyes, clutched my harpoon, and... *CHOMP!*

Darkness.

A sickening smell of chocolate and cucumber juice combined with saliva made me nearly puke. Thankfully, the teeth of the King hadn't gotten at me. There was a rumbling and a movement of the beast's throat, and within seconds, I was in its stomach.
It was a huge creature, so there was no problem getting through the gullet. The acid however, had corroded my left hind leg and some had gotten into my eye. The pain was like driving needles into those parts, but I held on, channeling the pain and rage towards my spell, into my harpoon. Finally, as I reached the middle of the King's stomach, I felt a rising motion. He was breaching again. This was it, and I jammed the harpoon into the acid-lined stomach as hard as I could!

I screamed! Oh, did I scream!
For confining us to our little island!
For all the homes this thing had destroyed!
For all the lives it took to take it down!
No more! Discord's reign shall NOT spread this way!


...so with a fury I had never thought I had, lightning flowed out of my horn, through the harpoon, and exploded around me!
Honestly, it was really nauseating to be higher than the mast, hanging in the air by sheer momentum, being spilled out the belly of a giant chimera shark. The stickiness clung to my body, getting on what was left of my stump leg. The feeling stung, it hurt, it just... gnawed at my nerves...

But I did it.

By golly I did it.

Dad was smiling at me that day.

And I smiled back.

...

"So, that was the story of how I lost my leg, kids.
Oh, and I smacked grandpa Salt Tea for stabbing my ship. He deserved it." I shrugged. "Any other questions?" My voice lingered in the air for a second. The foals were eagerly listening the entire time.
"Oh, tell us about your ship, Gran-ma! What happened to it?" Little blue Salty Sea asks. Her left hoof waving to get my attention.
"Well, if you're so interested, maybe let grandma first tell you about how it came to be. There's not much time left in this break time, you all will have to get on with your lessons soon!" Noisy groans were heard, though I grinned at these future sailors and fishers. Telling these stories makes me reminisce about the old days and look forward to the next...

...

Perhaps, one day, we can make this island even better than it had ever been; we could make a larger harbor--the budget was the only limitation. I had taken a lot in my days as Pirate Queen, but nowadays, there was much to consider. The piracy of this time would come to an end one day, and I only hope that we can shed our roots as a pirate bay and become a great sea faring people, with proper trade.
I fear that when I die, the outsiders will use their fear of my legacy to harm us. To destroy us. I only hope that I can reach these youngsters to make them know how important bravery and family are, not just stealing and raiding.

I slowly trot out of Sunny Seas Primary School, leaving the children to their classes. Looking at the town that had developed in my time, the lively streets, the busy harbor, I felt a great sense of pride welling up inside my chest.
...Or that was just my old age catching up.
"Ah, hahaha..." I laughed at no one in particular. Turns out I was just a sappy old mare like the rest of them.

Wandering around the docks, I looked into the waters below, and saw my reflection: Patched eye, pale cobalt blue mare with half a mane sticking out in a ponytail on the side. My stump had healed over time, but the wooden peg that replaced my left leg still brought back those same memories.

Those same, painful, sweet memories.

-------

So yeah, hopefully I did justice to the Pirate Queen idea! Took some liberties with naming her companions, however. Don't be Salt Tea if you don't like it! (sorry) Thanks to @lockingbane for contributing the prompt!
Just so this wasn't clear, the story takes place way before the Fall of Discord, and I'm assuming the pirate island is quite far away enough so that he wouldn't bother with messing with them directly.

Shanty inspiration from lockingsbane!

+10 to a roll.
 
As far as ideas for long and hard but (relatively) bloodless solutions to Maretonian slavery, I'll give it a shot.

First off, right now the major players are Queen Marea and the nobles. A minor player is the abolitionists, who are rising in power due to finally being unified.

Queen Marea:
Is the current ruler. Her key supporters are the nobles. She seems to want to do what is best(ish) for her country, or at least thinks that war with Gryphus would either remove her from power or cost enough as to not be worth it for her.
Like all leaders (Garrick and Second-best Dragon may be anomalies, but whether they are or not is not what this post is about), she is primarily concerned with gaining power and keeping it. This currently means that she has to keep enough of the nobles happy enough with her rule that they don't decide to lead a coup to overthrow her. She likely also wants to gain and keep large amounts of personal wealth, much like any other ruler.

Nobles:
The key supporters in Maretonia. Likely hold massive economic power in Maretonia. If Maretonia functions like a feudal government in the Middle Ages, they may also be the source of most of Maretonia's military power by training knights and pledging to allow the crown to use them during times of conflict.
Ignoring how some nobles will have lesser nobles who are their key supporters and so on and so forth, the key supporters of the nobles are tax collectors, bureaucrats who determine where all the money goes, and any knights/soldiers whom they pay to fight for them. If these people become unhappy with their noble they can make life miserable for him/her in various ways or even replace them with a new noble.
The nobles are leaders themselves, so they also want to gain power and keep it. This has led to them being unhappy with Marea for increasing the federal government's power, because it decreases their own. They also want to gain and keep large amounts of personal wealth, which is why they don't like giving up their slaves.

You know what? This is a terrible explanation, so just ignore it. If you want background for the rest of my post that actually makes sense, please watch Rules For Rulers on YouTube (now linked at the bottom of this post because I don't know how to just put a video in).

The point of the rambling in the spoiler above is that we don't necessarily need to remove Queen Marea. It's the nobles that we need to remove. The nobles have a lot of the power in Maretonia. Through a campaign of intrigue actions, we may be able to assassinate, bribe, and otherwise remove a large percentage of Maretonian nobles, then replace them with successors who are aligned with the abolitionist cause. Once there are enough abolitionist nobles, they can offer to pledge their full support for Queen Marea in exchange for her outlawing slavery and purging the slaveholder nobles to replace them with abolitionists. This benefits Queen Marea because it lets her choose nobles who are strongly in support of her (since she gets to pick as long as they are abolitionist). Gryphus, Neighpon, and Canterbury can sweeten the deal by promising to open up trade with Maretonia once slavery is abolished (its necessary for slavery to be fully abolished before the trade starts though, so she can't cheat).


Edit:
Overall, this plan gets a lot of nobles killed, but mostly spares the common pony, and does not require military intervention unless Maretonia detects our Intrigue actions and goes to war. On the other hand, it will be very hard, and takes a long time.

Rules For Rulers
 
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Through a campaign of intrigue actions, we may be able to assassinate, bribe, and otherwise remove a large percentage of Maretonian nobles, then replace them with successors who are aligned with the abolitionist cause.

Possible, but getting NOBLES who are aligned with the abolitionist movement beyond lip service is going to be tough.

Their economy is mostly slave driven so any nobles who do not use slaves are at a major disadvantage compared to the rest and would likely be either very far down the inheritance line or be at the very bottom rung of nobility.

Doing all this and keeping it quiet is nearly impossible and liable to result in a diplomatic incident if it is found out.

There is a lot more risk than reward in that method.

Once there are enough abolitionist nobles, they can offer to pledge their full support for Queen Marea in exchange for her outlawing slavery and purging the slaveholder nobles to replace them with abolitionists.

And getting the nobles to side with the queen rather than just overthrow her would be tough as the opportunity to do so would be a large temptation.



In general i would say this plan is POSSIBLE but unlikely to succeed and not worth the risk and hassle as it is likely to result in a major diplomatic incident which would lead to war anyway.
 
Overall, this plan gets a lot of nobles killed, but mostly spares the common pony, and does not require military intervention unless Maretonia detects our Intrigue actions and goes to war. On the other hand, it will be very hard, and takes a long time.

Rules For Rulers

Overall a pretty good analysis and Rules for rulers is a great video. However in regards to Maretonia you are forgetting the big unknown: Pegasi. Unicorns are clearly the top of the social ladder and we do know that Queen Mareia does not enjoy total noble support, even her first selected envoy was doing things counter to her orders. The big question in regards to Maretonia isn't rising merchant middle class, or keeping the earth ponies under hoof... it's the Pegasi. The Pegasi are clearly in that country primarily focused on the military, much like Ancient Cloudsdale we see in the show. But we do know that Mareia must have their support on some level or the whole system upon which the Maretonia Monarchy rests will fall apart. To use that video as an example. Mareia divvies out the treasure, some of the nobles and some of the Pegasi are the primary recipients. The "treasure" could very well not be traditional mountains of money, it could me something more mundane like food, which Pegasi towns in clouds need (if they exist)

Ultimately I think Queen Mareia, and the Monarchy of Maretonia is in a fragile state and likely has been since her ascension to power. The nobility is, ornery nobles unhappy with her rulership, pegasi forces are a major part although where precisely they fit in Maretonia's tribalism system is not quite known. The largest issue that's affected Maretonia in recent years is that for several years there was a power hungry evil umbrella pony North, and Knights that would kick their teeth to the west, Pirates to the East. The fact that Queen Mareia is taking the initiative speaks well for us, but it makes me wonder just how close to a tribalist war Maretonia could soon find itself in. The nobles have wealth and influence, but not the numbers...and they are increasingly finding that they are being ostracized from the wider world.

The largest variable is the pegasi of Maretonia... Which might be the bulk of Maretonia's military is going to go. Will they support the Queen? Or will they support abolition. One thing I do know... Queen Mareia is likely aware of this and trying to thread the line to make sure that whatever the fallout... She is the one on the throne. Of course the Pegasi could just be just as fragmented as Fethrisian League was... or and united under the rule res hip of some general like Brochard... We just don't know. Part of me wants to go on a state visit to Maretonia after this turn just to get a more personal take on the power structure
 
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As far as ideas for long and hard but (relatively) bloodless solutions to Maretonian slavery, I'll give it a shot.

First off, right now the major players are Queen Marea and the nobles. A minor player is the abolitionists, who are rising in power due to finally being unified.

Queen Marea:
Is the current ruler. Her key supporters are the nobles. She seems to want to do what is best(ish) for her country, or at least thinks that war with Gryphus would either remove her from power or cost enough as to not be worth it for her.
Like all leaders (Garrick and Second-best Dragon may be anomalies, but whether they are or not is not what this post is about), she is primarily concerned with gaining power and keeping it. This currently means that she has to keep enough of the nobles happy enough with her rule that they don't decide to lead a coup to overthrow her. She likely also wants to gain and keep large amounts of personal wealth, much like any other ruler.

Nobles:
The key supporters in Maretonia. Likely hold massive economic power in Maretonia. If Maretonia functions like a feudal government in the Middle Ages, they may also be the source of most of Maretonia's military power by training knights and pledging to allow the crown to use them during times of conflict.
Ignoring how some nobles will have lesser nobles who are their key supporters and so on and so forth, the key supporters of the nobles are tax collectors, bureaucrats who determine where all the money goes, and any knights/soldiers whom they pay to fight for them. If these people become unhappy with their noble they can make life miserable for him/her in various ways or even replace them with a new noble.
The nobles are leaders themselves, so they also want to gain power and keep it. This has led to them being unhappy with Marea for increasing the federal government's power, because it decreases their own. They also want to gain and keep large amounts of personal wealth, which is why they don't like giving up their slaves.

You know what? This is a terrible explanation, so just ignore it. If you want background for the rest of my post that actually makes sense, please watch Rules For Rulers on YouTube (now linked at the bottom of this post because I don't know how to just put a video in).

The point of the rambling in the spoiler above is that we don't necessarily need to remove Queen Marea. It's the nobles that we need to remove. The nobles have a lot of the power in Maretonia. Through a campaign of intrigue actions, we may be able to assassinate, bribe, and otherwise remove a large percentage of Maretonian nobles, then replace them with successors who are aligned with the abolitionist cause. Once there are enough abolitionist nobles, they can offer to pledge their full support for Queen Marea in exchange for her outlawing slavery and purging the slaveholder nobles to replace them with abolitionists. This benefits Queen Marea because it lets her choose nobles who are strongly in support of her (since she gets to pick as long as they are abolitionist). Gryphus, Neighpon, and Canterbury can sweeten the deal by promising to open up trade with Maretonia once slavery is abolished (its necessary for slavery to be fully abolished before the trade starts though, so she can't cheat).


Edit:
Overall, this plan gets a lot of nobles killed, but mostly spares the common pony, and does not require military intervention unless Maretonia detects our Intrigue actions and goes to war. On the other hand, it will be very hard, and takes a long time.

Rules For Rulers
this is more or less what i hope we manage to do. If we remove (or help Mareia remove) the worst of the noble slavers, and possibly have a few of the abolitionists raised to that rank, we can hopefully avoid a war.

We already had two wars in less than 20 years, and while the one against Brochard was relatively quick and painless (and brought us a united empire), the one against Sombra was not and brought quite a bit of extra expenses, damage and death. Every action we dedicated to dealing with Sombra and his blizzards are actions we could not use to strenghten our economy after all.

We DID gain a protectorate and a race with interesting crystal-related powers (plus the crystal heart and the manuscript), and it DID indirectly make contact and relationship with Neighpon easier, but we'll really see the advantages these bring in the long term.

Right now the crystal protectorate is still sucking funds and actions for relatively little gain (though this will probably change in the next 2-3 years, as tax revenue goes up and the university starts our studies of magic)

tl;dr: War is bad, it sucks actions that we could use to become even stronger/richer. We'll fight if we need to, but other solutions would be preferable, EVEN if it takes longer. Enough people have died against Sombra, and even the baby booms we should have had after the birth of the empire and the defeat of Sombra (and our improved agriculture) will take time to actually give us a base from which to expand our army and work force significantly.

Also i know that video and i love it. It raises very good points about why every leader ever doesn't simply do the "obvious things" to solve the "important problems", It's simply not that simple.
Possible, but getting NOBLES who are aligned with the abolitionist movement beyond lip service is going to be tough.
well, a possible way to get some more abolitionist-aligned nobles could be to give them access to our markets. If we don't trade with slavers and have Ravenburg check the people we trade with are actually not slavers, this could be a good incentive. Extend this to possibly Neighpon and Canterbury...

So, basically economical/diplomatic pressure. It wouldn't be enough, but it's a start. And in the meantime we help the abolitionists changing things on the inside and make life hell for the slavers, or at least for the worst/most abusive of them

Overall a pretty good analysis and Rules for rulers is a great video. However in regards to Maretonia you are forgetting the big unknown: Pegasi. Unicorns are clearly the top of the social ladder and we do know that Queen Mareia does not enjoy total noble support, even her first selected envoy was doing things counter to her orders. The big question in regards to Maretonia isn't rising merchant middle class, or keeping the earth ponies under hoof... it's the Pegasi. The Pegasi are clearly in that country primarily focused on the military, much like Ancient Cloudsdale we see in the show. But we do know that Mareia must have their support on some level or the whole system upon which the Maretonia Monarchy rests will fall apart. To use that video as an example. Mareia divvies out the treasure, some of the nobles and some of the Pegasi are the primary recipients. The "treasure" could very well not be traditional mountains of money, it could me something more mundane like food, which Pegasi towns in clouds need (if they exist)

Ultimately I think Queen Mareia, and the Monarchy of Maretonia is in a fragile state and likely has been since her ascension to power. The nobility is, ornery nobles unhappy with her rulership, pegasi forces are a major part although where precisely they fit in Maretonia's tribalism system is not quite known. The largest issue that's affected Maretonia in recent years is that for several years there was a power hungry evil umbrella pony North, and Knights that would kick their teeth to the west, Pirates to the East. The fact that Queen Mareia is taking the initiative speaks well for us, but it makes me wonder just how close to a tribalist war Maretonia could soon find itself in. The nobles have wealth and influence, but not the numbers...and they are increasingly finding that they are being ostracized from the wider world.

The largest variable is the pegasi of Maretonia... Which might be the bulk of Maretonia's military is going to go. Will they support the Queen? Or will they support abolition. One thing I do know... Queen Mareia is likely aware of this and trying to thread the line to make sure that whatever the fallout... She is the one on the throne. Of course the Pegasi could just be just as fragmented as Fethrisian League was... or and united under the rule res hip of some general like Brochard... We just don't know. Part of me wants to go on a state visit to Maretonia after this turn just to get a more personal take on the power structure

Good analysis. I'll add that, no matter how we decide to deal with Maretonia's problem, if we want any change we make to actually STICK we need at least some support from the inside. The abolitionists are a good starting point, and hopefully we can strenghten them enough to matter, but any change simply imposed from the outside, from the "foreign villain empire", would be hated by nearly everyone. We COULD gain their trust slowly by showing good rulership and not being a horrible tyrant, but it would take time and would come with many rebellions, if not immediately then in the future.
 
Part of me wants to go on a state visit to Maretonia after this turn just to get a more personal take on the power structure
Very good analysis and good catch there.

I personally suspect pegasi are military, couriers, and similar jobs. As such, they would likely fall into a military caste likely sitting somewhere between the wealthy merchants and the direct nobility (though some might have been enobled due to their military service though if so they will be in the lower to lower mid tier).

Also if we take our cues from the romans who also used slavery (albeit a much more benign form) then we can assume they will likely have at least one or two personal slaves, possibly provided by the military after reaching a certian rank.

While their low number of slaves makes them less opposed than the wealthy merchants, major farm owners, and almost all of the nobility they will still be opposed to it to some degree.

Now, most likely these slaves will be pleasure slaves or something similar and, depending on their treatment (military would possibly have more freedom and less biasses on slave treatment due to either paranioa as they would know the power of a knive in the chest in the dark from a resentful slave or out if the shere practicality of the fact a content slave is more enthusiastic) we may have to worry about stockholme syndrome or even some heavy indoctrination for those who were born into the role and raised into it.

These will likely present major rehabilitation problems going forward and, unlike the crystal ponies, they still have some measure of control over their actions and that can be translated to give an illusion of freedom to those who have never known anything else.

well, a possible way to get some more abolitionist-aligned nobles could be to give them access to our markets. If we don't trade with slavers and have Ravenburg check the people we trade with are actually not slavers, this could be a good incentive. Extend this to possibly Neighpon and Canterbury...

First off, i doubt they will see a good reception from either nation much less our own.

Second, that actually offers quite a few weak points into our nation and security. A few spies slipped into the merchants, a few missing griffon chicks, diamond dog pups, and cystal ponies might cause a small panic but if they move on soon afterwards they wont be caught unless they do it for more than one town per trade run.

This leads to them gaining slaves this way and it has been done historically by some nations in africa.

Third see below

So, basically economical/diplomatic pressure.

We have no major diplomatic ties we can use to pressure them, we lack investments in their markets or trade routes with them we can threaten to block off.

Outside of a full blockade and closing of all neighboring borders and possible closing off those we do not directly neighbor i dont see how that would work.

EDIT: And blockades are EXPENSIVE to maintain and will encourage smuggling which we will have to be on the lookout for.

All in all, economic and political pressure might work in a different situation but as things are military pressure and possibly inciting a revolt or at least stirring up the populous against the nobility and government still seems to be the most viable chance we have.


EDIT 2: Ideally i hope to pull the initial start to the french revolution before we cut in before it can devolve into a second reign of terror.

The start of the French revolution was actually pretty well done. They killed the worst of the nobility, set forth a standardized measurment system still used across most of the world, fixed a ton of tax laws, and more. It was only when a man took advantage of all the change to cheat his way into power that things took a turn for the worse.
 
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