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Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

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Having difficulty putting it in words so I guess I"ll just say that I like the no piety/religion actions. What with Discord and the various monsters(and those that become monsters ex.Sombra) that exist it's kind of hard to believe in higher power.
 
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Gamefreak1ed said:
Having difficulty putting it in words so I guess I"ll just say that I like the no piety/religion actions. What with Discord and the various monsters(and those that become monsters ex.Sombra) that exist it's kind of hard to believe in higher power.
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I mean, Discord kind of is a higher power. Or was, anyway. Just not the good kind.

Regardless, I too like how the quest just kind of doesn't talk about religion. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't, fine to speculate, but no need to mention in story.
 
Gamefreak1ed said:
Having difficulty putting it in words so I guess I"ll just say that I like the no piety/religion actions. What with Discord and the various monsters(and those that become monsters ex.Sombra) that exist it's kind of hard to believe in higher power.
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That seems wholly backwards. Particularly with, say, ponies. Each individual has a unique calling in life that they are extremely talented in and which is impressed subconsciously upon the parents at birth (hence the naming) and upon the individual's flank when they figure out what it is. How can one not believe in fate and a higher power?

There's also the fact that Discord was a terrible being with godlike powers that plagued the land and mysteriously disappeared, reasserting order to the world, which might lead to an obvious conclusion that he was defeated by some sort of Order-based entity. And lo and behold, King Garrick reforms the Empire in record time, as if with divine help. The myths basically write themselves.

At any rate, it bugs me that it's a CK2-style quest but we're completely disregarding an important part of both such quests and the time period; and also that the mentality of people seems entirely human in every way, except religion just doesn't seem important for them for no discrernible reason, and that difference is never explored or explained. And also that one of the largest reasons for cultural differences between peoples irl is nonexistent.
 
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tapkomet said:
That seems wholly backwards. Particularly with, say, ponies. Each individual has a unique calling in life that they are extremely talented in and which is impressed subconsciously upon the parents at birth (hence the naming) and upon the individual's flank when they figure out what it is. How can one not believe in fate and a higher power?

There's also the fact that Discord was a terrible being with godlike powers that plagued the land and mysteriously disappeared, reasserting order to the world, which might lead to an obvious conclusion that he was defeated by some sort of Order-based entity. And lo and behold, King Garrick reforms the Empire in record time, as if with divine help. The myths basically write themselves.

At any rate, it bugs me that it's a CK2-style quest but we're completely disregarding an important part of both such quests and the time period; and also that the mentality of people seems entirely human in every way, except religion just doesn't seem important for them for no discrernible reason, and that difference is never explored or explained. And also that one of the largest reasons for cultural differences between peoples irl is nonexistent.
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Or our population is pretty religious but the griffons just have had a long and strong tradition of separation of church and state
 
tapkomet said:
That seems wholly backwards. Particularly with, say, ponies. Each individual has a unique calling in life that they are extremely talented in and which is impressed subconsciously upon the parents at birth (hence the naming) and upon the individual's flank when they figure out what it is. How can one not believe in fate and a higher power?

There's also the fact that Discord was a terrible being with godlike powers that plagued the land and mysteriously disappeared, reasserting order to the world, which might lead to an obvious conclusion that he was defeated by some sort of Order-based entity. And lo and behold, King Garrick reforms the Empire in record time, as if with divine help. The myths basically write themselves.

At any rate, it bugs me that it's a CK2-style quest but we're completely disregarding an important part of both such quests and the time period; and also that the mentality of people seems entirely human in every way, except religion just doesn't seem important for them for no discrernible reason, and that difference is never explored or explained. And also that one of the largest reasons for cultural differences between peoples irl is nonexistent.
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Well, it's a bit of a complex issue. Some just dont want to deal with religion and what that entails, given faith tends to also be another vector for conflict. Another being, as an MLP quest, it's not really as important as other quests in a similar vein. God-like entities exist, and there is veneration for them, but at the same time they dont hold ultimate power, since they still work and do things like diplomacy, although that might be celestia just not wanting to be a God-empress.

Really though, magic seems to be the great equalizer. Something happens you cant explain? Rather than the work of a God, it's just magic. Some entities have more magic than others. Thus, there is a rationalization that beings like celestia arent on some seperate plane of existence that is unable to be breached.

As for it being a CKII inspired quest, I simply assume it's a CKII quest in the style of a nation builder and expander, rather than something that takes wholesale from CKII.

In terms of things like religion, I personally am more interesting in the tradition aspect over the worship aspect. The "going to temples on new year's to ring a bell for good luck" kind of thing, rather than the 'bless this thing in hopes something might happen' because they have legit magic to do that for them instead.
 
Neroj said:
Or our population is pretty religious but the griffons just have had a long and strong tradition of separation of church and state
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Why would they have such a tradition though, and why would apparently Crystal Ponies and Maretonians have the same? And apparenty Diamond Dogs have no beliefs on note either, despite not having a state of their own to start. If there is such tradition, then it ought to be covered in the story as well, though it sounds... unlikely considering all we know of historical cultures. Separation of church and state is a fairly new thing irl.

Lisain said:
Well, it's a bit of a complex issue. Some just dont want to deal with religion and what that entails, given faith tends to also be another vector for conflict. Another being, as an MLP quest, it's not really as important as other quests in a similar vein. God-like entities exist, and there is veneration for them, but at the same time they dont hold ultimate power, since they still work and do things like diplomacy, although that might be celestia just not wanting to be a God-empress.

Really though, magic seems to be the great equalizer. Something happens you cant explain? Rather than the work of a God, it's just magic. Some entities have more magic than others. Thus, there is a rationalization that beings like celestia arent on some seperate plane of existence that is unable to be breached.

As for it being a CKII inspired quest, I simply assume it's a CKII quest in the style of a nation builder and expander, rather than something that takes wholesale from CKII.

In terms of things like religion, I personally am more interesting in the tradition aspect over the worship aspect. The "going to temples on new year's to ring a bell for good luck" kind of thing, rather than the 'bless this thing in hopes something might happen' because they have legit magic to do that for them instead.
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Religion being another vector for conflict (and influence) is the improtant bit for a CK2-style quest. While it can be interesting to hear the QM's ideas on why various religions might have appeared in MLP world, the important part is how they affect our nation building/expansion/diplomacy. Which, currently, they don't at all. I feel it's an obvious missed opportunity.
 
tapkomet said:
Why would they have such a tradition though, and why would apparently Crystal Ponies and Maretonians have the same? And apparenty Diamond Dogs have no beliefs on note either, despite not having a state of their own to start. If there is such tradition, then it ought to be covered in the story as well, though it sounds... unlikely considering all we know of historical cultures. Separation of church and state is a fairly new thing irl.
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I can make the same argument. If there was a strong tradition of religion in government, it should be covered in story. It hasn't, so there probably isn't. Hamfisting in religion as a major thing at this point would just be awkward.
 
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Neroj said:
I can make the same argument. If there was a strong tradition of religion in government, it should be covered in story. It hasn't, so there probably isn't. Hamfisting in religion as a major thing at this point would just be awkward.
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Right, saying at this point that there has been strong religious influence all along would be awkward. Even though for a medieval/early modern society that should really be the default state of things.

Though it could still be introduced reasonably with strong religious influences in other countries, as we already know it's a thing in Neighpon, and we know very little for the Yaks (who we do know have shamans though) and Maretonians. Crystal Ponies might have something as well. It could be an interesting contrast between seemingly secular-minded griffons and religious others. Do we let in missionaries from Maretonia, for instance? Do we invite less missionary-minded but friendlier Neighponese to counter them? Do we start up a state religion of our own? Do none of those things? These could present interesting challenges for us moving forward that aren't war-based... at the QM's discretion, obviously.
 
tapkomet said:
Why would they have such a tradition though, and why would apparently Crystal Ponies and Maretonians have the same? And apparenty Diamond Dogs have no beliefs on note either, despite not having a state of their own to start. If there is such tradition, then it ought to be covered in the story as well, though it sounds... unlikely considering all we know of historical cultures. Separation of church and state is a fairly new thing irl.


Religion being another vector for conflict (and influence) is the improtant bit for a CK2-style quest. While it can be interesting to hear the QM's ideas on why various religions might have appeared in MLP world, the important part is how they affect our nation building/expansion/diplomacy. Which, currently, they don't at all. I feel it's an obvious missed opportunity.
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Like, really, going to the roots of religion, itd be about guidance and answers. When most answers can be boiled down to 'magic' for the unexplained and guidance can be done for ponies in the form of Mark's, future sight for yaks, the dragons for the qilin, and the emperors for the griffons, religion as we know it probably wouldnt form. Schools of thought on what is right and what is wrong, I can see. Thoughts on the afterlife being different? Possibly. Actual things like gods? Probably not, since they know really strong magic users like celestia and discord exist. Thus, tradition would work more in the way of guidelines or things they know actually work. As an example with neighpon, I'd suspect going to temples and praying to kami may actually work in that, kami may exist and actually listen, so it's not a thing based on faith, but something you do because you would know it works. I mean, that's just guesses, because we dont know exactly what's going on there, but that's just as an example. Thus, I suspect 'religion' may be closer to things like confucianism rather than christianity here.

Gaius Tyrannus said:
Why @Lisain? Why do you do this to me? Now I have to write another omake about worship in the Empire. Curse you. Agh.
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Woops~~
 
tapkomet said:
The idea that they'd be too desperate to be religious seems wholly backwards.
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I was not trying to imply that they were desperate.

There might be religious stuff, but I don't think anything as big as other species would have.

I was mostly very sleepy when I was typing last night and was not liking the idea of copying the human mentality from both warhammers, as gryphons have a good mindset for their situation.

I am not against it or religion though, but this is not and will never be Earth.

Lisain said:
Like, really, going to the roots of religion, itd be about guidance and answers. When most answers can be boiled down to 'magic' for the unexplained and guidance can be done for ponies in the form of Mark's, future sight for yaks, the dragons for the qilin, and the emperors for the griffons, religion as we know it probably wouldnt form. Schools of thought on what is right and what is wrong, I can see. Thoughts on the afterlife being different? Possibly. Actual things like gods? Probably not, since they know really strong magic users like celestia and discord exist. Thus, tradition would work more in the way of guidelines or things they know actually work. As an example with neighpon, I'd suspect going to temples and praying to kami may actually work in that, kami may exist and actually listen, so it's not a thing based on faith, but something you do because you would know it works. I mean, that's just guesses, because we dont know exactly what's going on there, but that's just as an example. Thus, I suspect 'religion' may be closer to things like confucianism rather than christianity here.
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That is a lot closer to what I wanted to say.

Lisain said:
Ah, of the 'would betray humanity for a jetpack' disposition, are you?
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I would prefer to be a robodragon over just having a jetpack.
 
Red_Faux said:
Careful, wanting to not bring religion in so that it doesn't cause debate may just cause a derailing debate.


/\ This right here. Still religion, but different to what where used to
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Mhm. Rather than treating garrick like a god, it could wind up more in the belief in him and his principles, which could get passed down. "people are free" "Pay your dues" "Stand not for evil" "Talk when you can." "everyone has a right to learn." "Right and correct are not the same, and the choice may be difficult to choose sometimes." Stuff like that. With ancestor stuff, its more on not wanting to dissapoint their memory and living up to their legacies. Add in a bit of Neighpon's values with honor meshing well with ours, the yaks and neighponese with their spirits, and a sprinkle of some other bits and peices, and you basically have... I dunno what to call it, garrickism? right there.
 
I'm actually about to said strangle someone unless someone can tell me how to get back the draft that just got lost. Please.
 
Lisain said:
Mhm. Rather than treating garrick like a god, it could wind up more in the belief in him and his principles, which could get passed down. "people are free" "Pay your dues" "Stand not for evil" "Talk when you can." "everyone has a right to learn." "Right and correct are not the same, and the choice may be difficult to choose sometimes." Stuff like that. With ancestor stuff, its more on not wanting to dissapoint their memory and living up to their legacies. Add in a bit of Neighpon's values with honor meshing well with ours, the yaks and neighponese with their spirits, and a sprinkle of some other bits and peices, and you basically have... I dunno what to call it, garrickism? right there.
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Oh, take the After the End mod for CK2 for instance: it has a religion called "Ceticism" which came from the word Ascetic. Basically it was made by a bunch of different small beliefs following different "gurus" each having their own teachings, or "ways" in fields such as peace, war, intrigue, and knowledge. Yes, people from Buddha, Hubbard, Jesus, and Mohammad are all such gurus whose teachings are congregated into separate paths for each person to follow. (Each person follows only one path, so some conflict between different ways are present) Sort of like a mixing of multiple faiths, into one big faith.
Then they had it be the faith of the Californian Empire (Three Kingdoms/Sengoku expy) led by the Celestial Emperor/Empress through his/her own writings/contributions on the faith since the Emperor is the head of the religion regardless of temporal power.

I can understand and respect not hamfisting religion into this quest, though, since it wasn't even mentioned in the main story. I'm not even religious myself so don't want to keep this going if it's not gonna get an answer. Like the discussion though, very civil so far!

Gaius Tyrannus said:
I saved it on here. I typed it on a phone. Pls help I accidentally clicked the T with an x.
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Damn, I know that feeling too :(I realized that if you let the text box you type in rest for a few seconds it saves.
On mobile, it should be a little floppy disk symbol in the top right side of the text box, where the formatting buttons are? Yeah, best to save your stories on a separate place like Word.

Unless you like tempting fate. I know I did when I wrote my omake directly on the site typer. *dice roll away*
 
I don't see the problem with religion.

If I remember right it has been said in the beginning that gryphons venerate their ancestors, isn't that enough?

I still wonder if Discord counts as a god, a demi-god, a chtulhu-like figure, or he's simply a powerful spirit/creature/spellcaster.
 
Pittauro said:
I don't see the problem with religion.

If I remember right it has been said in the beginning that gryphons venerate their ancestors, isn't that enough?

I still wonder if Discord counts as a god, a demi-god, a chtulhu-like figure, or he's simply a powerful spirit/creature/spellcaster.
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Discord was described as a God of Chaos, not merely a Spirit of Chaos like in the show, so I suppose it's a reflection of peoples' fear for him? Especially since we chose the period right after his defeat.
Which makes me think: where would Equestria be, if the Crystal Empire is to our South? I hope we learn of this after our encounter with the Lake Lady.
 
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