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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The Dammerlichreiter Thurible is essentially "using one wind as a channel for another" which is very much fitting to the experimentation action.

The Pass Without Trace windherding might be somewhat more practical for this turn (with the -10) but I support the Thurible because it seems the more synergistic to the dhar-making experimentation we're planning on doing anyway.

I should probably search through the plans that don't involve knowingly making a bunch of dhar, and maybe make my own if none appeal.

[X]Plan: Jyn, AV and Spells and Little girl
[X] Plan New Foundations
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Tilean
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and our non-suspicious friend
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible
 
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going to be honest, I have a feeling that the Tongs experiment is either going to work (for a given meaning of 'work' if its impractical) or we are going to not be doing much magic for the next while we work off a very bad case of dhar poisoning.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
going to be honest, I have a feeling that the Tongs experiment is either going to work (for a given meaning of the work if its impractical) or we are going to not be doing much magic for the next while we work off a very bad case of dhar poisoning.
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We have the belt to prevent Dhar poisoning. We might poison the environment with Dhar if things go wrong, but not ourselves. And given the existence of Morrslieb it's unlikely to matter past the short-term chance of catastrophic miscasts.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
the belt works for outside dhar, not what we make ourselfs.
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Nope.
BoneyM said:
It means that you could juggle warpstone, hug a demon, and fling Dhar around and just have to deal with your robes getting singed as the corruption burns away rather than sinking into your soul.
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We've been told we could use Dhar directly, which isn't something that's happening even in the worst-case tongs scenario.

Also, like... how much Dhar do you expect to happen? Mathilde isn't crazy, she's not going to be starting her experiments with giant amounts of magic. Small quantities, get the theory down (if it is in fact possible to do at all), then scale up.
 
I think tongs should be put ahead of windherder research for the branch.
Because windherder is trait specific to us, and may or may not be transferable.
While tongs, if viable, can be lot easier starting point for research, and possibly helpful for later multi wind enchantment by making magisters more used to working with other winds.
 
picklepikkl said:
Also, like... how much Dhar do you expect to happen? Mathilde isn't crazy, she's not going to be starting her experiments with giant amounts of magic. Small quantities, get the theory down (if it is in fact possible to do at all), then scale up.
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The winds behave differently the more of them is in one place. An experiment that tells us we can use petty magic levels without their personalities interfering isn't all that meaningful. EDIT: I mean, it's not nothing, but it won't be the "tongs are possible" that people are hoping for. I suppose it might fail and get us the "tongs are impossible" - but given the Dammerlichtreiter Thurible I think it's clear that the use of wind-infused fog is possible, so Aqshy should be doable at least, we just probably won't be able to do anything with it.
Valmond said:
Because windherder is trait specific to us, and may or may not be transferable.
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Windherder is listed under Skills, not Traits. It's a (likely unique) skill we created, but it's a skill and can therefore be taught
 
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Valmond said:
Ok, skill, but still probably harder to transfer to others than just teaching early tongs (assuming tongs are viable).
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I'm doubtful of that, and even in the unlikely event that teaching people to manipulate one wind with another to produce at most petty magic effects (a useless party trick, but that's "early tongs") is easier - teaching a skill where you're guaranteed to make Dhar at first is going to be a lot riskier and more legally questionable than teaching a skill you can use with an existing practitioner and thereby avoid making any dhar. And a lot less useful than teaching them to produce synergistic multiwind effects by co-operating
 
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kingreaper said:
The winds behave differently the more of them is in one place. An experiment that tells us we can use petty magic levels without their personalities interfering isn't all that meaningful.
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I think I disagree? The impression I got is that even that much would be revolutionary:
Quest said:
@BoneyM can we use Ulgu to manipulate other singular winds rather than the mixed Dhar?
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BoneyM said:
What little you know on the subject suggests it may be possible, but logic also tells you if it was that simple it would already be a thing.
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But if we can't do it without making Dhar, oh well, sometimes experiments fail.

Also, I want to draw attention to Nerdasaurus's point here:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Do we want to do the windherder/thurible thing with a -10 overwork malus? I thought we were going to use branch collage actions to research it as well? Why do it now when we can do it with a dedicated research action next turn? Or am I misunderstanding something?
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Doing Windherding with a half-action seems much better than doing it with a full action.
 
picklepikkl said:
I think I disagree? The impression I got is that even that much would be revolutionary:
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It would be surprising, but it wouldn't be in any way useful nor indicative that there's any possible use for the technique.

Casting Light with Shyish controlled by Ulgu might be impressive - but you could have just cast Light with Ulgu.

And if Mathilde isn't willing to take chances, if we're not making any rolls, I doubt we'll even get close to that; more likely it'll be "I can get the Shyish to move North. But given as I can't actually touch it without making Dhar I can't get it to do anything."

picklepikkl said:
Doing Windherding with a half-action seems much better than doing it with a full action.
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There'll be plenty of things to do with that half-action. I don't consider it significantly less valuable than a full action - the branch is designed to make its half-action very versatile.
 
BoneyM said:
(sorry if this comes across harshly, but apparently something fundamental is not getting across here and I'm trying to make it as clear as possible)
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There's a set of people for whom the instinctive reaction to a course of action with an unknown result is "that cannot possibly be valuable."

Combine that with the fact that excellent QMs like you don't give shitty trap options in quests, and they promptly convince themselves that the result must, by definition, be knowable - and proceed to invent methodology for finding that knowledge.
 
Candesce said:
There's a set of people for whom the instinctive reaction to a course of action with an unknown result is "that cannot possibly be valuable."

Combine that with the fact that excellent QMs like you don't give shitty trap options in quests, and they promptly convince themselves that the result must, by definition, be knowable - and proceed to invent methodology for finding that knowledge.
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Which is kinda funny, because the method of finding that knowledge has been stated, repeatedly, by QM.
Try it, and find out. :V
 
Valmond said:
Which is kinda funny, because the method of finding that knowledge has been stated, repeatedly, by QM.
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Jenna Moran, creator of the roleplaying game Nobilis, writes a lot of fiction. (It's pretty good.) I used to fairly frequently see, when her writing came up, people talking about how it was impenetrably written - which I found fairly strange, as I'd always found it quite straightforward.

I eventually saw one of these complaints specify that the problem was her overuse of metaphor. Now, I didn't remember there being any metaphor at all in the particular story referenced, but it gave me a point to start comprehension from -

Jenna Moran writes about fantastic worlds where, say, getting set on fire makes you cold and wet. If someone comes into reading one of these stories confident they already know things about it - e. g., it must be describing a world where fire is hot - they will frequently decide that the text contradicting those assumptions must mean they've misunderstood the text somehow.

And so a straightforward, literal text must be a highly metaphorical and obscure piece because otherwise the reader would need to reevaluate their assumptions.

Sometimes there's no communicating with people.
 
BoneyM said:
Try it and find out. When I say that, it's not me saying 'fuck you'. It's me saying the only practical way to know what will happen when you do this thing is to actually do it. That is the case here. Pick any combination of spells, even at random if you have to, and Try It. In doing so, you will Find Out.
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Ok then. My attempts:

First idea:
Track's Tale Told: Helps to read tracks or follow a trail in the wild.
Shadowsteed: A mystical and supernaturally fast horse is summoned that will carry you or one you designate, until it is dismounted or until dawn the next day, whichever is first.

Enchantment Target: A saddle.
Use: Enables a tracker to be supernaturally fast and good at tracking when someone is running in the wild. The shadowhorse also ignores difficult terrain.
Item name: Shadowhunt Saddle.

Second idea:
Take No Heed: Makes you very easy to ignore - it would take an act of willpower to even notice you unless you draw attention to yourself, and those few that do notice you will have difficulty remembering anything about you. Lasts a few minutes.
Earth Blood: Heals yourself if standing on earth, more effective if you cast it for longer.

Enchantment Target: Boots, or a rod that can be planted in the soil, if the user wants to stay prone as well.
Use: Allows the user to heal in safety after breaking off combat/pursuit even while being hunted/near enemies. Being able to take a breath, and full/almost full heal with only two relatively simple spells is nice.

Item name: House of Fog.

So the vote would be:
[X] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell (specify what and which)
-[X] Work with Panoramia to try to place enchatments from multiple Winds into one item, both Relatively Simple spells.
--[X] Combine Shadowsteed(Grey) and Track's Tale Told(Jade), possibly on a saddle, to create an item for those who hunt, giving them a magic horse that ignores difficult terrain while helping them track.
---[X] Name it a "Shadowhunt Saddle", if it works.
--[X] Combine Take No Heed(Grey) and Earth Blood(Jade), to allow the Grey spell to cover for the Jade's weakness of staying put and channeling while healing.
---[X] Name it "House of Fog", if it works.
---[X] Name it "Ephemerial Sanctuary", if it works.

How about those, for attempts, @BoneyM ? Would those qualify for the trying and the finding out?
If they do, someone steal one of these and integrate them into a plan.
 
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Panoramia can't participate in Windherding because she's not an enchanter. None of the K8P wizards are, and both Mathilde and her collaborator needs to be able to enchant the Windherded item.

I do love the Shadowhunt Saddle, though. Two RS spells makes for a great proof-of-concept.
 
picklepikkl said:
Panoramia can't participate in Windherding because she's not an enchanter. None of the K8P wizards are, and both Mathilde and her collaborator needs to be able to enchant the Windherded item.

I do love the Shadowhunt Saddle, though. Two RS spells makes for a great proof-of-concept.
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From can see Max as willing to learn enchanting if we are footing the bill(ap) but that will be the big hurdle with are current focus. Windherder very much a enchanting skill for us right now....

we actually might need a light choir specialist if we want to multi wind spells with windherder going forward.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
From can see Max as willing to learn enchanting if we are footing the bill(ap) but that will be the big hurdle with are current focus. Windherder very much a enchanting skill for us right now....

we actually might need a light choir specialist if we want to multi wind spells with windherder going forward.
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It's a college favour cost - for a relatively simple spell it won't be too expensive, we could probably hire a journeyman aid with the right skills, at 2 college favour. Anything higher and we might be looking at 5 college favour for a magister.
 
kingreaper said:
It's a college favour cost - for a relatively simple spell it won't be too expensive, we could probably hire a journeyman aid with the right skills, at 2 college favour. Anything higher and we might be looking at 5 college favour for a magister.
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... or we could just full on scout and hire enchanters, choir masters etc etc. You know, make a branch college?

actually @BoneyM? Possibly a bit of a open ended question, but how many members would be In A 'healthy' branch college after, let's say, 10 years? Taking into account How specialised it is or is not.

I would not be surprised if the honchland college, as a large but stunted college, is around 50 members.

but maybe the very successful, but speciaised branch in Talabecland is around 20 members strong.

like obviously, if WEB-MAT is only Mathy and Max in 10 years, something is wrong. But 5-10? Members.
 
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