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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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ctulhuslp said:
For old times' sake. It'll be the last job she can do for him, I am perfectly willing to 'waste' an action, if you will, for sentimentality's sake here.
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Valmond said:
Sure, Belegar might not care, but many of us do.
And having a pre existing map will make the next Loremasters job so much easier.
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This has all the sentimental weight of, wait, no, it doesn't. At all. I'd love to spend an AP on a gift or something that materially helps Belegar, but this just ain't it. If we don't even expect Belegar himself to appreciate the effort, then how is it supposed to by symbolic of... anything?
 
Changing vote

[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley
[X] [KAU] In Karag Zilfin, just below Cython's territory
 
Derpmind said:
This has all the sentimental weight of, wait, no, it doesn't. At all. I'd love to spend an AP on a gift or something that materially helps Belegar, but this just ain't it. If we don't even expect Belegar himself to appreciate the effort, then how is it supposed to by symbolic of... anything?
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Mathilde has always been an over acchiever, it's what got her where she is now.
Might as well keep at it to the end.
 
[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms
[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley
[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril

Man, if Egrimm is a traitor after all this guessing it's gonna be real embarrassing, although maybe less damaging then leaving him so near the heart of Imperial power.
 
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Valmond said:
Sure, Belegar might not care, but many of us do.
And having a pre existing map will make the next Loremasters job so much easier.
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But the only reason to care would be if Belegar cared, surely?

Also, we'd be saving the next Loremaster exactly 1 AP to do exactly the same thing. I don't really care about someone we've never met's AP efficiency.
 
[X] Plan Shrooming Shadow
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords

I think my personal preference would be to write more papers rather than work on Swording or Mark Control, but these will do.

I honestly couldn't give a fig about scouting Lhune Depths. Waste of an AP IMO.

[x] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
[x] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley

Edit: approval voting
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and fiddly tongy things
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and Eike bonding time
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and EIC stuff
 
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[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril

I know I keep hammering this point, but it's because I don't think I've ever seen somebody voting for Kvinn-Wyr actually respond to this: Karak Eight Peaks is at very real risk of having its outer defenses breached, even with everything the Okral did for us on that front. The total dwarven population of K8P is more like what would be considered sufficient to defend one Karag, and the human population doesn't fill that out all that much (and even if that grows I'm skeptical the dwarves would be okay with ceding more than one mountain to them from a cultural standpoint, anyway). K8P has, as the name suggests, eight of them. If a sizable enemy force makes it inside, it is extremely plausible that the defenders could be forced into a position where they would need to consolidate their defenses around the locations that must be kept.

Seriously, I think the thread overestimates how secure K8P as a whole is due to how decisively the very strong Waaagh Birdmuncha was defeated. But the only reason that was possible was because they didn't know about the Eye of Gazul, and they put more than half their force in position to be wiped out with a single firing of it. That's not going to happen again, because the Eye of Gazul's cover has been well and truly blown. If we had had to defend K8P conventionally against that Waaagh, it would have been very likely that all the new peaks we just reclaimed would have filled back up with greenskins and we would have more-or-less returned to the status quo ante of having a few inhabited mountains resisting a siege. The Okral helped make K8P as a whole much more defensible than it was before, but that's a very relative statement. Overall, K8P is still in an alarmingly precarious strategic position vis-a-vis being able to hold onto every Karag against a serious large-scale attack. Being able to hold their "core" Karags that hold the bulk of their defenders/settlers even against such an attack is much more likely, though.

So. If in the future it comes to that, which do you think a responsible King of K8P will prioritize consolidating their defenses around: the citizens of K8P, or the books of a big library? If there's time to evacuate the contents of the library I'm sure they would, but depending on how severely/quickly things are going south that may or may not be entirely feasible. If we want to guarantee the library will be defended to the last even in the case of a breach of K8P, we really really should put it somewhere that's already filled with defenders/inhabitants. Like, say, atop Karagril in the very cool Silver Tower, just saying. As I've said before, if our goal is to build an archive that will stand the test of millennia, it behooves us to put it somewhere that we know will be at the top of the priority list for defending. Incidentally, AFAICT from eyeballing it on the map, the Silver Tower is in position to be covered against overland attack by the Eye of Gazul. So there's that as a security factor as well.

I think the thread is also overestimating how quickly the other mountains are going to develop populations of their own. Again, K8P doesn't have the population to actually fill Karag Lhune by itself, and dwarven population growth is nearly an oxymoron in this Age. If they move people into additional mountains, it will be a case of knowingly spreading themselves thin so that they can say they're technically reinhabiting the homes of their ancestors (because dwarves). That shouldn't be expected to hold up against a major invasion; those thinly-populated Karags would be evacuated to the "core" Karags.

Incidentally (and maybe somebody can check the relevant portions of the quest to confirm), AFAICT from just checking the map of K8P Kvinn-Wyr is close to the East Valley but doesn't actually border it. So holding it wouldn't be necessary for keeping the farmland there secured against casual raids.

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
-[X] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Karnos, Talabecland)
-[X] Suggest Eike spend a few weeks in Karak Eight Peaks, so she can grow familiar with Dwarves and their ways.
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
-[X] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
--[X] COIN: Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
-[X] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Karnos, Talabecland)
-[X] Suggest Eike spend a few weeks in Karak Eight Peaks, so she can grow familiar with Dwarves and their ways.
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic.
-[X] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
-[X] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
--[X] COIN: Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold

I like these plans a lot. I'm going to skim some of the others to see if there's something I want to approval vote, but these are by far the best collection of stuff I actually care about.

Approval voting so far:
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and fiddly tongy things
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and Eike bonding time
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and EIC stuff
[X] Plan Papers, papers, and our non-suspicious friend
[X] Plan Slacking with Shrooms
 
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[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae

[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
 
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril

I think it's okay if for one turn we don't take any action related to our job.
 
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I guess I just don't agree that we should be planning our library location around "what if the worst-case scenario of the Karak being breached happens" as opposed to "what if someone wants to go to the library from the places where the people are."

I'd rather optimize for the usual case than hedge against the worst case. And if we actually want to hedge against the worst case, the place we should be using is the Hall of Reckonings, which is the place that was defended to the last in the original fall of Karak Eight Peaks.
 
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picklepikkl said:
I guess I just don't agree that we should be planning our library location around "what if the worst-case scenario of the Karak being breached happens" as opposed to "what if someone wants to go to the library from the places where the people are."

I'd rather optimize for the usual case than hedge against the worst case. And if we actually want to hedge against the worst case, the place we should be using is the Hall of Reckonings, which is the place that was defended to the last in the original fall of Karak Eight Peaks.
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First, while I'm sure there was no malintent, I'd prefer we not use "people" as synonymous with "humans and halflings" when it comes to K8P. There are plenty of dwarves in Karagril, and culturally dwarves tend to regard something being less convenient as morally improving rather than an imposition.

Second, as far as the non-dwarven population goes, I think you're misestimating what the "usual case" will be. As I've touched on previously, the percentage of the human/halfling population that's literate at all is very low, and the percentage of that literate population that's likely to be interested in scholarly endeavors will be even lower. As such, I think it is not just plausible but likely that most of the non-dwarven users of this library will be travellers from elsewhere in the Old World (highly motivated travellers at that, given how remote K8P is). If we want to make things convenient for our typical users, we should use our authority as Head Librarian to build some nice inns into the ground floor of the Silver Tower, so that the people who are here to make dedicated use of the library can have a comfy space to live that's literally inside the library that they want to use. There'd be nothing stopping long-term inhabitants of K8P from taking rooms there for a few nights when they have a project that will require consulting the library, for that matter. A reference library like this one is not aimed towards a population of casual users. If somebody is using this library, it is very likely that they are somebody who really wants to use this library, and intends to spend a significant amount of time doing so.

Third, maybe I'm misremembering, but isn't the Hall of Reckoning very nearby the original breach where the Skaven broke into K8P en masse? And regardless, I'd really rather not overwrite a very important dwarven cultural site (even if they'd be okay with it) when there is a very secure location available that doesn't involve such a tradeoff.
 
Fayhem said:
First, while I'm sure there was no malintent, I'd prefer we not use "people" as synonymous with "humans and halflings" when it comes to K8P. There are plenty of dwarves in Karagril, and culturally dwarves tend to regard something being less convenient as morally improving rather than an imposition.
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I wasn't. The center of dwarf population is in the south, in Rhyn and Mhonar.
BoneyM said:
Following the ore tunnels takes you to the most recently refounded Karags. Karag Rhyn and Karag Mhonar lie at the southern edge of the Karak and are the twin peaks of the titular eight, as the two are connected at their base instead of being spaced out like the others. It is into them that the Okral poured most of their effort and into them that most of the Karak's Clans have now moved.
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And here's a map of Karak Eight Peaks from the Waaagh era but which captures the salient point:

Dwarves in the south, concentrated in Rhyn and Mhonar. Humans in Nar. Halflings in the East Valley. Kvinn-Wyr is the location most convenient to where the people live (EDIT: and, for that matter, the most convenient to travelers coming to visit, since the East Gate is way safer a way to come into the Karak than the West Gate). Karagril is convenient to way fewer people, and all of them are dwarves (unless it turns out the We are comfortable climbing stairs into a tower, but I wouldn't super bet on that).
 
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Fayhem said:
I know I keep hammering this point, but it's because I don't think I've ever seen somebody voting for Kvinn-Wyr actually respond to this: Karak Eight Peaks is at very real risk of having its outer defenses breached, even with everything the Okral did for us on that front. The total dwarven population of K8P is more like what would be considered sufficient to defend one Karag, and the human population doesn't fill that out all that much (and even if that grows I'm skeptical the dwarves would be okay with ceding more than one mountain to them from a cultural standpoint, anyway). K8P has, as the name suggests, eight of them. If a sizable enemy force makes it inside, it is extremely plausible that the defenders could be forced into a position where they would need to consolidate their defenses around the locations that must be kept.

Seriously, I think the thread overestimates how secure K8P as a whole is due to how decisively the very strong Waaagh Birdmuncha was defeated. But the only reason that was possible was because they didn't know about the Eye of Gazul, and they put more than half their force in position to be wiped out with a single firing of it. That's not going to happen again, because the Eye of Gazul's cover has been well and truly blown. If we had had to defend K8P conventionally against that Waaagh, it would have been very likely that all the new peaks we just reclaimed would have filled back up with greenskins and we would have more-or-less returned to the status quo ante of having a few inhabited mountains resisting a siege. The Okral helped make K8P as a whole much more defensible than it was before, but that's a very relative statement. Overall, K8P is still in an alarmingly precarious strategic position vis-a-vis being able to hold onto every Karag against a serious large-scale attack. Being able to hold their "core" Karags that hold the bulk of their defenders/settlers even against such an attack is much more likely, though.
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Where do you expect this external breach to come from? The only active front right now is from the Underway below Karagril leading to Black Crag, which is the same mountain you are voting to put the library in. If any place is most vulnerable right now, it is there in the north. Kvinn-Wyr is both next to the most secure entrance (the East Gate, covered by the Eye of Gazul) and the farthest from an active front. If we suddenly had the West Gate fall, which was the route that Birdmuncha took, Kvinn-Wyr isn't lost until we reach the third line of defence:

BoneyM said:
[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
Let enough forces through the Western Gates before unveiling the Eye of Gazul that they can't practically disengage. This will likely mean that large numbers will be shielded by the eastern edge of the Caldera, and Karagril, Karag Mhonar, and the Citadel will have to hold with conventional siege weapons.
[ ] FIRST LINE: Western Gates
Give any force foolish enough to enter the Western Gates the full power of the Eye of Gazul. This makes it almost certain they will seek entry elsewhere, most likely via the Wyvern Caves, which will have to be defended the normal way - if a defensive position kilometers above the ground can be considered 'normal'.

How should the forces of Eight Peaks react to intrusions to the Karags?
[ ] SECOND LINE: Hold
Build strong fortifications along the lines the greenskins are expected to approach from, and if they seek a way in use a wall of lead to keep them out. These points will only be abandoned if they become overwhelmed.
[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
Set up a fighting retreat through a dozen or more defensive positions through each mountain, making them bleed for each step without significantly endangering any friendly forces.

What should be the final line of defence, which will be held to the bitter end?
[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley
Give up Kvinn-Wyr and the Sentinels, and allow the southern half of the Eastern Valley to become the final battlefield.
[ ] THIRD LINE: Underway
Hold the line at the Underway between Lhune and Karagril, and between Kvinn-Wyr and Mhonar.
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Fayhem said:
[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril

I know I keep hammering this point, but it's because I don't think I've ever seen somebody voting for Kvinn-Wyr actually respond to this: Karak Eight Peaks is at very real risk of having its outer defenses breached, even with everything the Okral did for us on that front. The total dwarven population of K8P is more like what would be considered sufficient to defend one Karag, and the human population doesn't fill that out all that much (and even if that grows I'm skeptical the dwarves would be okay with ceding more than one mountain to them from a cultural standpoint, anyway). K8P has, as the name suggests, eight of them. If a sizable enemy force makes it inside, it is extremely plausible that the defenders could be forced into a position where they would need to consolidate their defenses around the locations that must be kept.

Seriously, I think the thread overestimates how secure K8P as a whole is due to how decisively the very strong Waaagh Birdmuncha was defeated. But the only reason that was possible was because they didn't know about the Eye of Gazul, and they put more than half their force in position to be wiped out with a single firing of it. That's not going to happen again, because the Eye of Gazul's cover has been well and truly blown. If we had had to defend K8P conventionally against that Waaagh, it would have been very likely that all the new peaks we just reclaimed would have filled back up with greenskins and we would have more-or-less returned to the status quo ante of having a few inhabited mountains resisting a siege. The Okral helped make K8P as a whole much more defensible than it was before, but that's a very relative statement. Overall, K8P is still in an alarmingly precarious strategic position vis-a-vis being able to hold onto every Karag against a serious large-scale attack. Being able to hold their "core" Karags that hold the bulk of their defenders/settlers even against such an attack is much more likely, though.

So. If in the future it comes to that, which do you think a responsible King of K8P will prioritize consolidating their defenses around: the citizens of K8P, or the books of a big library? If there's time to evacuate the contents of the library I'm sure they would, but depending on how severely/quickly things are going south that may or may not be entirely feasible. If we want to guarantee the library will be defended to the last even in the case of a breach of K8P, we really really should put it somewhere that's already filled with defenders/inhabitants. Like, say, atop Karagril in the very cool Silver Tower, just saying. As I've said before, if our goal is to build an archive that will stand the test of millennia, it behooves us to put it somewhere that we know will be at the top of the priority list for defending. Incidentally, AFAICT from eyeballing it on the map, the Silver Tower is in position to be covered against overland attack by the Eye of Gazul. So there's that as a security factor as well.

I think the thread is also overestimating how quickly the other mountains are going to develop populations of their own. Again, K8P doesn't have the population to actually fill Karag Lhune by itself, and dwarven population growth is nearly an oxymoron in this Age. If they move people into additional mountains, it will be a case of knowingly spreading themselves thin so that they can say they're technically reinhabiting the homes of their ancestors (because dwarves). That shouldn't be expected to hold up against a major invasion; those thinly-populated Karags would be evacuated to the "core" Karags.

Incidentally (and maybe somebody can check the relevant portions of the quest to confirm), AFAICT from just checking the map of K8P Kvinn-Wyr is close to the East Valley but doesn't actually border it. So holding it wouldn't be necessary for keeping the farmland there secured against casual raids.
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Karak Eight Peaks has a lot of enemies, all of whom behave differently. Karagril is not inherently safer because it is heavily defended.

For the Orcs, Karagril is a bullseye. It's heavily defended, so that's where a propa scrap can be had. They've already occupied and destroyed the Silver Tower before.

The Underway connection beneath it can starting shooting Orcs like a firehose any time Karak Drazh gets overpopulated. It's the most likely location in the entire Karak for a defensive breach. Building a library atop an active warzone simply because there are soldiers there does not render it automatically safe. Those soldiers have more important concerns than defending books, because they are on the front line.

The Silver Tower is also notably not-defensible against air attacks, because it is a tower. Having a big solid mountain overhead protects against Wyverns and rampaging Dragons much more effectively.

(EDIT: Ninja'd :oops:)
 
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[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms
[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley
[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril

I may prefer the white Lady for the reasons I posted plus the protector connection, but giant silver tower is still cool AF.
 
Derpmind said:
This has all the sentimental weight of, wait, no, it doesn't. At all. I'd love to spend an AP on a gift or something that materially helps Belegar, but this just ain't it. If we don't even expect Belegar himself to appreciate the effort, then how is it supposed to by symbolic of... anything?
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Bolded is extremely just your opinion.

He'll probably appreciate value of her working as a Loremaster while she is one. And Mathilde herself probably will too; he says it's optional but I am sure he will appreciate the gesture.
 
Andres110 said:
No windherder again huh.

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
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Two good reasons not to this turn: -10 penalty and being low on College Favour with which to hire a collaborator.

Hopefully we'll jam a bunch of Favour from the paper this turn and be able to use Max next turn for a bunch more, which will make spending some on hiring someone much safer. We've also got penalty-free overwork available next turn.
 
Andres110 said:
No windherder again huh.
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picklepikkl said:
Two good reasons not to this turn: -10 penalty and being low on College Favour with which to hire a collaborator.

Hopefully we'll jam a bunch of Favour from the paper this turn and be able to use Max next turn for a bunch more, which will make spending some on hiring someone much safer. We've also got penalty-free overwork available next turn.
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Hmm? I thought Tongs were a form of windherder, and most of the leading plans include it.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
Nudalit nudaled annudalit, Ekumgrik Roswita. Dawrik, ordohdrengi a Dawrik Belegar Angrund a Vala-Azril-Ungol.

@BoneyM, translation question:

My best stab at this is something along the lines of "(I hope you're having a) Good now, good recent past and good immediate future, Pain-in-the-neck-of-those-who descend-underground Roswita (Maybe a reference to her Sylvania campaign?). I'm a messenger (lit., 'stupidity-slayer'?) Of King Belegar, etc.

Somehow I don't think that's quite it though.

How close was I?
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You pretty much got it. As best I recall, I was using 'Ekumgrik' as a sort of 'enemy of my enemy' salutation, something like 'I am explicitly putting you in a separate category to those that annoy me'.
 
Now that we have Polyglot, we could learn another language using a single action. I think we should learn Tilean, because the benefits are great. It lets us read not only Tilean books, but Estalian ones as well, expanding the library bonuses we can get greatly and have access to a broader base of knowledge, which combos marvellously with the Great Library. The sooner we learn Tilean, the better.

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Tilean
-[X] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Karnos, Talabecland)
-[X] Suggest Eike spend a few weeks in Karak Eight Peaks, so she can grow familiar with Dwarves and their ways.
-[X] Hire a trainer to come to Eight Peaks and teach you: Tilean
-[X] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
-[X] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
--[X] COIN: Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold

Approval vote:
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords

ReImagined said:
Hmm? I thought Tongs were a form of windherder, and most of the leading plans include it.
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Tongs are not windherder. Tongs are derived from necromancy, not windherder.
 
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