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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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So. Murderbeast has a lead of 40 votes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
Adhoc vote count started by Derpmind on Sep 9, 2019 at 7:46 AM, finished with 293 posts and 99 votes.
  • [X] Plan Murderbeast Distraction
    -[X] Sabotage the defences...
    -- [X] By unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    -[X] Slip out...
    -- [X] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    ... and 19 more.
    [X] Plan Fire Is Distracting
    -[X] Sabotage the defences...
    --[X] By setting the wooden floors aflame.
    ---[X] Closer to the siege engines if you can manage that.
    -[X] Slip out...
    - [x] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    [X] Plan Murderbeast Distraction Mk2
    -[X] Sabotage the defences...
    - [X] By unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    ---[X] When you pass by the bolt throwers on your way out, fire them using Move.
    -[X] Slip out...
    - [x] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    [X] Plan Pain Train
    -[X] Sabotage the defences...
    -- [X] By using Substance of Shadow to walk silently and safely across the wooden floor and pulling the triggers on every bolt thrower you can.
    -- [X] By unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    -- [X] By setting the wooden floors aflame.
    -[X] Who needs stealth? There's an army coming up those stairs. Smash your way through the Goblins and have them chase you into the teeth of the approaching Throng.
    [X] Plan Sneaky Git
    -[X] Doppelganger and Take no Heed to walk around and collect some torches from side tunnels.
    -[X] Sneak about the edges of the room until you are level with the bolt throwers.
    -[X] Fling the torches to the middle of the stage, and use Move to pull the triggers on as many bolt throwers as you can.
    -[X] Sneak out of the gates during the ensuing confusion.
    [X] Sabotage the defences...
    - [X] By unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    [X]Plan No Wizard Here
    [X] Plan: Leeroy Jenkins Was a Great Example
    -[X] Sabotage The Defenses
    --[X] By using Substance of Shadow to walk silently and safely across the wooden floor and pulling the triggers on every bolt thrower you can.
    - [X] By unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    -[X] Just start fighting. If there's any Goblins left when the Throng arrives, they can join in.
    --[X] Before anything though, see if there are any Goblin Spellcasters and mark them for elimination after the defenses are sabotaged.
    [X] Plan Fire and Sabotage
    -[X] Sabotage the defences...
    -- [X] By using Substance of Shadow to walk silently and safely across the wooden floor and sabotaging every bolt thrower you can
    ---[X] Only sabotage the the bolt throwers that can be done safely
    -- [X] By setting the wooden floors aflame.
    -[X] Slip out...
    -- [X] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    [X] Plan Come and Get Me
    -[X] Skywalk over the trapped floor and use Move to trigger the goblin siege weapons.
    --[X] Lure the goblins over their own trapped floor.
    -[X] Just start fighting. If there's any Goblins left when the Throng arrives, they can join in.
    --[X] Target goblins with ranged weapons first.
    [X] Plan Pointy Sticks
    [X] Plan Smoke and Mirrors
    [X] Other (write in): Use doppelganger and raise the alarm with "We're being attacked by rat boys. They're attacking from behind us. They're with the Stunties." before the dwarves attack then slip out in the confusion.
    [X] Slip out...
    - [x] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    [X] Sabotage the defences...
    - [x] By crushing the wooden floor with substance-of-shadow boulders and unleashing whatever is under this floor upon the greenskins above it.
    [x] Plan Crush the Floor
    [X] Slip out...
    - [X] By casting Pall of Shadow on the gates themselves and streaking through the patch of impenetrable darkness.
    [X] Plan Everything is Melting!
    - [X] Other (write in)
    - [X] Cast Burning Shadows on each of the two bonfires, excluding yourself from the effect. The shadows of the goblins will melt other goblins, causing pandemonium, and also melt the bolt throwers, the shadows of the bolt throwers will melt the wooden floor, and as that gets holes in will start to melt the monsters, which should psiss them off and cause them to jump out and add to the havoc.
    - [x] By walking out while they're otherwise distracted. (note: ensure your plan includes an otherwise distraction)
    - [X] By casting Doppelganger and Take No Heed, and just walking out. Goblin crowd is thick enough to probably require some shoving.
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A shame the lead is so big and the time to reverse it so short, as I really think this is the ideal situation to go to town with Burning Shadows. We could get a kill count into the several hundreds with my proposal here.

It could be that shaven tower assault all over again but with more goblins running around screaming 'I'm melting!'.
 
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Alratan said:
A shame the lead is so big and the time to reverse it so short, as I really think this is the ideal situation to go to town with Burning Shadows. We could get a kill count into the several hundreds with my proposal here.

It could be that shaven tower assault all over again but with more goblins running around screaming 'I'm melting!'.
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Maybe. Or maybe, starting a fight in the middle of a goblin army with no easy way to get back to the dwarves gt us killed.
 
Pempelune said:
Maybe. Or maybe, starting a fight in the middle of a goblin army with no easy way to get back to the dwarves gt us killed.
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It's not starting a fight. The goblins would have no idea at all what was happening, and the burning shadows are completely autonomous once started, so whilst the goblins are busy melting Mathilde can simply walk out.

Note that the plan does include a section on how to exfiltrate.

Note as well that Mathilde could cast Burning Shadows on the bonfires when she'd already sneaked to be standing right next to the exit, which I'll edit in.
 
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Alratan said:
It's not starting a fight. The goblins would have no idea at all what was happening, and the burning shadows are completely autonomous once started, so whilst the goblins are busy melting Mathilde can simply walk out.

Note that the plan does include a section on how to exfiltrate.
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I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure casting major spells (and that's spells, as you want to cast it on many items) get us noticed even with Take No Heed. Not to mention the QM warned us about mass-casting a spell.
The goblins aren't dumb, they will notice that the shadows burning isn't exactly natural, and they will see us casting. Then they swarm us, and then we're dead.
 
Pempelune said:
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure casting major spells (and that's spells, as you want to cast it on many items) get us noticed even with Take No Heed. Not to mention the QM warned us about mass-casting a spell.
The goblins aren't dumb, they will notice that the shadows burning isn't exactly natural, and they will see us casting. Then they swarm us, and then we're dead.
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In order. Mathilde is hidden in the shadows. They can't see her cast because they can't see her. If they could, they'd already be attacking.

Also, from what I can tell, you cast Burning Shadows on the light source. There are two bonfires, so Mathilde would cast it twice. There's no mass casting or anything resembling it. There's a reason the spell is called Burning Shadows not Burning Shadow.

For massive lulz, Mathilde could actually walk into the massive bonfires (looking like a goblin that had fallen or something similar) and cast the spell from there, hidden inside the flames, as she's immune to fire, before ducking out the other side.
 
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BoneyM said:
and you've got eight bullets and one sword and three charges of the Seed of Regrowth and you really don't like those numbers,
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Shouldn't this be four charges instead of three? Mathilde used a charge in the Karak Eight Peaks: Victory at the East Gates update, but she also used a dying orc to recharge the seed right after.
BoneyM said:
Tendrils of shadow stab downward, but they are arrested by an effort of will. Instead, you dismount and mutter a second mnemonic, and roots burst from your offhand to plunge into the orc's still-writhing body, feeding on his life energies to replenish the magic that healed you.
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Alratan said:
In order. Mathilde is hidden in the shadows. They can't see her cast because they can't see her. If they could, they'd already be attacking.

Also, you cast Burning Shadows on the light source. There are two bonfires, so Mathilde would cast it twice. There's no mass casting or anything resembling it. There's a reason the spell is called Burning Shadows not Burning Shadow.
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We are also under a Take No Heed which will fail. Your plan could work, if we can coordinate with the Dwarves so that they attack when the shadows are burning. Otherwise, if the Dwarves take too long to come, the goblins will come our way and will see us. You cannot count on one spell killing every goblins.
I don't see us getting out of this when every goblins know they are under attack. Take No Heed will not work, we will be trapped.
 
Alratan said:
In order. Mathilde is hidden in the shadows. They can't see her cast because they can't see her. If they could, they'd already be attacking.

Also, from what I can tell, you cast Burning Shadows on the light source. There are two bonfires, so Mathilde would cast it twice. There's no mass casting or anything resembling it. There's a reason the spell is called Burning Shadows not Burning Shadow.

For massive lulz, Mathilde could actually walk into the massive bonfires (looking like a goblin that had fallen or something similar) and cast the spell from there, hidden inside the flames, as she's immune to fire, before ducking out the other side.
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We make Burning Shadows with our own shadow.
 
Alratan said:
In order. Mathilde is hidden in the shadows. They can't see her cast because they can't see her. If they could, they'd already be attacking.

Also, from what I can tell, you cast Burning Shadows on the light source. There are two bonfires, so Mathilde would cast it twice. There's no mass casting or anything resembling it. There's a reason the spell is called Burning Shadows not Burning Shadow.

For massive lulz, Mathilde could actually walk into the massive bonfires (looking like a goblin that had fallen or something similar) and cast the spell from there, hidden inside the flames, as she's immune to fire, before ducking out the other side.
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That's not how any of that works.
From the spellbook:
"K / Burning Shadows: Causes any shadows cast by a source as bright as a torch or brighter to burn like acid. You can specify who this will and will not effect.
- Can effect inanimate objects, but acid is a lot less effective on inanimate objects than it is on living flesh.
- Must specifically be a cast shadow, not merely being in darkness. Think shadow puppets."

Huh. I was sure it was in there. Guess not. @BoneyM Please update the description of Burning Shadows to inculde it only works on Mathilda's own shadows. She can cast it on any light source, but it only effects the shadow she personally casts, from that light source.

EDIT: You'd think "Thing shadow puppets" would be clear enough, as well as reading the quest so far, but I guess not.
 
Pempelune said:
We are also under a Take No Heed which will fail. Your plan could work, if we can coordinate with the Dwarves so that they attack when the shadows are burning. Otherwise, if the Dwarves take too long to come, the goblins will come our way and will see us. You cannot count on one spell killing every goblins.
I don't see us getting out of this when every goblins know they are under attack. Take No Heed will not work, we will be trapped.
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It doesn't need to kill ever goblin. The goblins would have no way of knowing who cast the spell, or even that it was a spell rather than gas or something like that.

The idea is to start them melting and then walk out, leaving the spell still running as they run around in chaos melting each other with their shadows.
Mopman43 said:
We make Burning Shadows with our own shadow.
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That's not what the spell says at all, in fact, the text directly contradicts your claim:

Causes any shadows cast by a source as bright as a torch or brighter to burn like acid. You can specify who this will and will not effect.​

It says it effects any shadows (multiple) cast be a source, with qualifications for that source. It never makes any reference to the caster's own shadow. It's Burning Shadows, not Burning Shadow.

With it effecting a single source it would literally be impossible for the caster to have multiple shadows cast from it as the spell references. Also, when it say 'any' shadows that makes it clear that it's not just the caster's own shadow.

The shadow puppets reference mentions it being a qualification of not being in complete darkness. The shadows cast by goblins in front of a bonfire would be true shadows, with edges and definition, just as a shadow puppet would.
 
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@Alratan Let's table that discussion. I've tagged the QM, he'll rap my teeth in if I'm wrong. But I'm damn certain there was a whole discusion about Burrning Shadows when we first got it, or started using it, or were considering which spell to learn. I'm pretty damn certain it has to be our own shadow, and if I'm wrong, WOG will strike me down. So chill.
 
Derpmind said:
Shouldn't this be four charges instead of three? Mathilde used a charge in the Karak Eight Peaks: Victory at the East Gates update, but she also used a dying orc to recharge the seed right after.
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We spent a charge in the scouting part 5 to heal a shoulder wound and didn't recharge it yet.
Taking the wound:
"taking a jab from a spear to the shoulder from a second, who quickly regrets it as the Rune of Rancour's response splits his torso open. "
Healing it:
"and a moment's concentration has roots shifting below your flesh and the wound in your shoulder closing. You take a moment to consider your next goal"
 
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primemountain said:
@Alratan Let's table that discussion. I've tagged the QM, he'll rap my teeth in if I'm wrong. But I'm damn certain there was a whole discusion about Burrning Shadows when we first got it, or started using it, or were considering which spell to learn. I'm pretty damn certain it has to be our own shadow, and if I'm wrong, WOG will strike me down. So chill.
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It could be, fair enough, but I hope you can see why I didn't read 'any shadows' to mean 'the caster's own shadow'.

Mathilde has previously limited it to only effect her own shadow, as the spell allows, but that could be because it otherwise becomes a rather indiscriminate and uncontrollable rather than the precision tool she needed, and restricting it to her own shadow allows.

It's just a shame that if I am right we'd miss a legendarily good time to make use of Burning Shadows that's unlikely to reapeat so beautifully.
 
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primemountain said:
@Alratan Let's table that discussion. I've tagged the QM, he'll rap my teeth in if I'm wrong. But I'm damn certain there was a whole discusion about Burrning Shadows when we first got it, or started using it, or were considering which spell to learn. I'm pretty damn certain it has to be our own shadow, and if I'm wrong, WOG will strike me down. So chill.
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Alratan said:
It could be, fair enough, but I hope you can see why I didn't read 'any shadows' to mean 'the caster's own shadow'.

Mathilde has previously limited it to only effect her own shadow, as they spell allows, but that could be because it otherwise becomes a rather indiscriminate and uncontrollable rather than the precision tool she needed, and restricting it to her own shadow allows.

It's just a shame that if I am right we'd miss a legendarily good time to make use of Burning Shadows that's unlikely to reapeat so beautifully.
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Unless it was changed specifically for the quest, it is any shadows in the (not very large) area (not only yours and not even from a single light source), since that is how it works in the Realms of Sorcery, which is the source of the majority of our spells. RoS even specifically clarifies that no, insides of a building is not "in shadow" from the roof for the purposes of this spell.
 
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Alratan said:
It could be, fair enough, but I hope you can see why I didn't read 'any shadows' to mean 'the caster's own shadow'.

Mathilde has previously limited it to only effect her own shadow, as they spell allows, but that could be because it otherwise becomes a rather indiscriminate and uncontrollable rather than the precision tool she needed, and restricting it to her own shadow allows.

It's just a shame that if I am right we'd miss a legendarily good time to make use of Burning Shadows that's unlikely to reapeat so beautifully.
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Yeah, I can see how you might think that from the info threadmark alone. I'm not sure it ever got brought up in story, that she can only use her own shadow. I think it did, but I can't remember off the top of my head where.

I was so sure it was in there, I went and copied the spell description from the info threadmark only to double take upon re-reading. Like, what? That's not in there? What?

But hey, at least this will help avoid any further confusion on the subject. It could be that it was in there, before the most recent expansion for spell description, and got lost in editing. I don't know. Maybe it never was there, and everyone just knew after in thread conversations with the QM.

If I have extra time, I'll see about finding that WOG.
 
This post of BoneyM's discusses Burning Shadows, it mentions that the shadow of a tree or a building could trigger it, which I think makes clear that it's not just the caster's own shadow.
 
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Yeah, the spellbook is pretty clear about the effects, and Alratan has the right of it; it is indeed a spell that you cast on light sources, so the bonfires are fair game.
BoneyM said:
K / Burning Shadows: Causes any shadows cast by a source as bright as a torch or brighter to burn like acid. You can specify who this will and will not effect.
- Can effect inanimate objects, but acid is a lot less effective on inanimate objects than it is on living flesh.
- Must specifically be a cast shadow, not merely being in darkness. Think shadow puppets.
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Specifically, any source as bright as a torch or brighter, which the bonfires definitely are.

Also, the shadows cast by goblins on other goblins are fair game, because they're definitely shadows and not a general darkness; the room as a whole is semi-reasonably illuminated from the bonfires.

Edit: Perhaps I, too, am fencing at shadows? If so, sorry.
BoneyM said:
There's nothing special about a staff's shape. You can work the effects of one into any reasonably-sized object.
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Also, I found this post, which clears up a thing I'd been thinking of, that we'd need to somehow learn how to wield our greatsword one-handed in order to also get that boost from the cool magic staves. Of course, I don't know how well this would mesh with us also wanting to enchant our greatsword in other ways, but if we had to settle for one or the other an external +1 Magic boost would be really hard to pass up.
 
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If Burning Shadows works like it does in Realm of Sorcery, then it wouldn't work as I suggest, as it's an instantaneous area effect centred on the caster with pretty short range. I'm not sure that's how we've seen it manifest previously, but as said, it's unknowable.

I'm not trying for an exploit here, if this isn't the intended use of the spell. This just seemed like one of those unusual niche circumstances where a spell is particularly effective that would be a shame to miss out on, but I could easily be wrong.

chocolote12 said:
Also, I found this post, which clears up a thing I'd been thinking of, that we'd need to somehow learn how to wield our greatsword one-handed in order to also get that boost from the cool magic staves. Of course, I don't know how well this would mesh with us also wanting to enchant our greatsword in other ways, but if we had to settle for one or the other an external +1 Magic boost would be really hard to pass up.
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Or perhaps something like a thin breastplate that doesn't count as actual armour, if that wouldn't interfere with spellcasting.
 
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Slamu said:
Closest I can think the Skaven have are poisonwind globes, which...I doubt we're going to want to use. What number of grenades were you thinking we'd want to carry? I was thinking more 'keep a few on us for situations like this' than 'all grenades, all the time'.
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A reasonable working quantity worth training the ability to light/arm and throw correctly would be no less than three.
The issue is that I just don't see any grenade she could use weighing less than 5-8 pounds in this era.
Andres110 said:
What about if we hit the floor with our greatsword?
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Then we get a blunt greatsword. Cutting through wood requires some chopping, and wood designed to support multiple 40 kilo goblins in full kit is going to take quite a few hits even with an axe.
Dark as Silver said:
Only if we step into void space thats lit along the way.
So another room or corridor.
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It depends on whether we know the other side. Otherwise its a leap of faith.
Alratan said:
Thinking of how to do Murderbeast Distraction, Mathilde could slip into the pit below under Substance of Shadow, then use her shadow chisel and greatsword to shave off pieces of the wooden floorboards and supports in such a way as to weaken the tie downs and its ability to resist the monster jumping through it.
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...keep in mind the gribbly down below isn't going to ignore Mathilde showing up down there.

Naw, what you want to do is probably make a hole on a weak bit of the flooring and then chuck a torch down(preferably shoving it at a distance with Move rather than by hand). Given the environment the bottom of the pit should be full of trash, especially wood bits from greenskin construction, straw, food waste, and fermenting critter poop. Once the bottom of the supports are on fire, they'd take the floor down and theres no way to put it out without the beasts helping
 
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chocolote12 said:
Also, I found this post, which clears up a thing I'd been thinking of, that we'd need to somehow learn how to wield our greatsword one-handed in order to also get that boost from the cool magic staves. Of course, I don't know how well this would mesh with us also wanting to enchant our greatsword in other ways, but if we had to settle for one or the other an external +1 Magic boost would be really hard to pass up.
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Or perhaps something like a breastplate, if that wouldn't interfere with spellcasting.
veekie said:
...keep in mind the gribbly down below isn't going to ignore Mathilde showing up down there.
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If she has Substance of Shadow active, and was invisible, insubstantial and silent, how would it know she was there? I can't see, smell, echolocate, hear, or touch her. Even if it somehow could, what would it be able to do about it?
 
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Alratan said:
If she has Substance of Shadow active, and was invisible, insubstantial and silent, how would it know she was there? I can't see, smell, echolocate, hear, or touch her. Even if it somehow could, what would it be able to do about it?
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The floor is goblin construction. Its not going to be all dark like it should be. Expect streaks of firelight leaking through pretty much all over
 
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