Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[NexusEye]

Gain more information how exactly?

This is stupid and pointless.

Who cares?

The job is done, lets go home and get back to our girlfriend and our attempts to obtain ultimate cosmic power.

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Talk to the local Kurgan, it's that simple, they've been fighting Cor-Dum for decades at least, they have to know something. As for who cares, the thread cares and the Empire and Karaz Ankor will care if we can prove or refute that what's going on is threat to the rest of the world.

 

[Boney]

So at the very least the mountain looks like a regular lonely mountain jutting out of a natural looking but very unnaturally located forest.

Any chance of very very rough estimates of mountain height? Or comparison to real life mountains you've witnessed?

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Fairly big, as all Karaks are. It's not just an aesthetic thing, there needs to be enough rock on top for it to sufficiently shield the inhabitants from Storms of Chaos, and a big part of why Uzkulak fell is because the mountain was insufficient.

Considering the name, let's go with Mount Ngauruhoe as the reference mountain.

 

[Akasha]

An utter kaleidoscope. Everything is saturated here.

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A Wizard with a very advanced form of visual Magesight looks at Corn Dam and sees a kaleidoscope of colors, but very small amounts of Dhar?

Why, that sounds to me like some turbo-advanced form of magic or runes, using vast amounts of Winds to create something vastly complex. All without a hint of Chaos, as Chaos is inherently chaotic and corruptive, and wouldn't give a damn about avoiding Dhar.

The evidence grows, like murderous vines in Panoramia's gardens, after a fresh delivery of fertilizer from Karak Drazh.

Considering the name, let's go with Mount Ngauruhoe as the reference

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We're all a bit stressed here, but mounting hoes ain't a workable solution in the Lockdown.

 

[CornyBones]

Okay. So lets assume the best case scenario. The Dwarves have gone vigilante rorschach on the Chaos wastes. Great, what's the problem?

A. The grasp on The Corruptor is tenuous, and by extension the Beastman horde. Perhaps he is constantly generating Dhar that can only be removed by the unique runic environment of the Waystone. Perhaps the Karak's location, *within* the Chaos Wastes, and the constant threat of ambient Dhar corruption, prevents them from leveraging anything outside the limited runic borders. The Geographic isolation hasn't changed.

B. I don't know much about Dwarves in Warhammer Fantasy, but I suspect the idea of using slaves/ consorting with Chaos in this fashion (regardless of the outcome) is frowned upon. We don't know what the Beastmen are like, or how they've been changed by the mountain environment, but I doubt it is *entirely* without problems.

C. How much of the Karak's duty was to simply die in noble battle? How much is the identity of Dwarves embedded on the idea that the old ways *the best* and deviation of any kind is frowned upon, much less the kind of deviation that leads to using sacred Runes to wield *Chaos Champions*

 

[Ericwinter]

Gain more information how exactly?

This is stupid and pointless.

Who cares?

The job is done, lets go home and get back to our girlfriend and our attempts to obtain ultimate cosmic power.

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Apparently a great deal of the thread cares. You don't have to, but others can if they want.

Especially since it's Battle Magic and none of them know we have something that mitigates the risk, they must think we're either absurdly powerful, extremely brave, or utterly crazy.

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I think Hubert might know, but for the others... yeah. It's even worse that we're in the Chaos wastes and have to pull an entire stream of Ulgu from the sky above us to get it working. Then there was the visual description of how the fog came out of us...

he's doing the thing we did with Alcazar where we don't call Alcatraz by his desired name, except doing it to Canned Doom

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Maybe. I just wasn't sure given that Calamity Dum sounds like a reference to Breath of the Wild, and figured Collin might be a reference too...

 

[SoHowAreYou]

So whats the deal here guys. I skimmed the discussion but the most recent theory I saw that was Garlaks I believe seems to have a flaw. Why the fuck is Borek so ashamed of the idea of a giant Rune of Valaya. Thats honestly my main concern with all of these ideas that Morghur is not the one out there. Even if it's not Morghur why are the dwarves cosplaying as beastmen? Whatever's going on in Karak Dum is not good. And honestly while it might be worth it to gather some information I don't think getting any closer is good. If anyone should approach it should be another dwarf since that's probably what this defense relies on. Also I don't think we can infiltrate, like Mathilde is good but Dum has been under siege for a long time now, the dwarfs are probably better at this point. Finding out what's going on from other tribes in the area might work, but beyond that we should not under any circumstance approach that forest.

[x] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.
[x] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[x] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
[x] [THEORY]: There are no dwarves to save. Either the "Cor-Dum" we saw is somehow fake, in which case the dwarves hold the place, and need no help holding it; Cor-Dum is real and allied somehow with the dwarves, in which case the dwarves are not worth our trouble as they have allied with chaos; or Cor-Dum is real and conquered Karag Dum, in which case there are no dwarves left to save.
[x] [ACTION]: Turn back.

 

[Dalmity]

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: Through either Pact, Binding or some other venue the dwarfs of Karag Dum have installed Morghur as some form of defensive guardian, supported by the fact that Morghur is treating the mountain as a giant herdstone while to my vision it is not. The confounding factor here is that the energy flowing out of Karag Dum is uncorrupted. Morghur himself would almost certainly be using it for his own ends, so it means the occupants of the hold either don't know how to use it, don't care to use it or still consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor enough that they let the energy flow uninterrupted.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.

 

[Garlak]

If the mountain is using massive runes to passivly blow away all the ambiet Dhar. Then it would explain why the Local Tribe lost favor, and why assaulting the mountain grant favor.

The mountain created an anti-chaos zone in the the middle of chaos word.

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... This deserves more focus (I'm haphazardly reading stuff).

Maybe the reason the Yasuk lost favor with the Chaos Gods because they screwed up and allowed the creation of a giant anti-Dhar mountain-rune/waystone at the gates of hell.

Or maybe because... they were the tribe in charge in the area, and Cor-Dum was purified/captured/converted by Karag Dum on their watch.

So the Chaos Gods are pissed because: "What do you mean you lost a demi-god to the forces of Order?!"

Maybe Cor-Dum was in Karag Dum all along, and the Yasuk were ordered to break into Karag Dum and get him out. Maybe the Dum Dwarfs were doing a Working to purify him and any Dhar in the vicinity and the Yasuk were ordered to stop it and failed. Maybe Cor-Dum was born to the Yasuk, and charged Karag Dum, and got captured by the Dum Runemasters and purified/captured/converted/whatever, and the Yasuk lost favor.


But the overall point here is a very important and key one. I think this should go on the list of factors and evidence, when we're laying our our theories to the Councillors and should probably be a reminder in the update's list of facts/points or something:

*The Yasuk have lost the favor of the Chaos Gods

This is important/relevant or a hint somehow. We may not be understanding everything that is going on, but I think it's important to keep in mind.

EDIT:

So whats the deal here guys. I skimmed the discussion but the most recent theory I saw that was Garlaks I believe seems to have a flaw. Why the fuck is Borek so ashamed of the idea of a giant Rune of Valaya. Thats honestly my main concern with all of these ideas that Morghur is not the one out there.

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What? No. He's not ashamed of a giant Rune of Valaya.

He's ashamed that it's being used to purify a freaking Beastmen boogeyman.

Runes are a divine and holy art. They're not supposed to be given out to just anybody. Mathilde had to get Dwarf rep to get some, and being an Imperial human (an ancestral ally of the Karaz Ankor) helped.

Using an unorthodox, radical and possibly arguably heretical, method of runes to purify a Beastmen demigod and hope that he'll be grateful to you? It's insanity, by Dwarf standards.

That's why Borek is resigned.

Because using Runes like these is... radical and extreme and What-The-Fuck-y.

Even if to somebody like Mathilde, if it were all explained and assured, might go "Oh, makes sense... albeit it IS terrifying."

Culturally and psychologically, this is way way out of the Dwarf comfort zone.

Hence: shame in doing things other than the way your Ancestors did. Shame in using the Runes in such an experimental and risky gamble, and relying on a Beastman's sanity or generosity or whatever.

 

[ninjafish]

Talk to the local Kurgan, it's that simple, they've been fighting Cor-Dum for decades at least, they have to know something. As for who cares, the thread cares and the Empire and Karaz Ankor will care if we can prove or refute that what's going on is threat to the rest of the world.

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Thr Kurgan don't know shit about what happened to the dwarves and will probably just tell us that morghur killed them all ages ago if anything.

Even if that isn't the case, The kurgan have no reason to believe otherwise.

Our job here was to ascertain Karag Dum's fate, its still there, it's messing around with shit it shouldn't be. We are in no position to do anything about it if they actually are a threat.

Job's done, smashing successm, we even saved a different noncorrupt Karak along the way!

We've gone above and beyond, lets turn around, fulfill our end of the deal with the ice witch, and go home to do actually interesting stuff.

I wanna see the whole "Now legally a dwarf" thing! Damnit!

 

[SMDVogrin]

I apologize if this has come up before, but I've been skimming the thread and mostly trying to concentrate on Boney's posts...

A couple of thoughts that struck me:
1. "Cor-Dum" cannot be pure Khazalid. Boney has stated they don't even have a C. Obviously Dum is of Dawi origin, but where's the "Cor" come from?
2. We know Karag Dum has waystone knowledge, possibly even knowledge lost to the rest of their race, if Borek's implications are correct.
3. The waystone network was a collaboration between the Elves and the Dwarves back in the golden age.

@BoneyM - Does the word "Cor" mean anything particularly interesting in Eltharin?

 

[Boney]

Gain more information how exactly?

This is stupid and pointless.

Who cares?

The job is done, lets go home and get back to our girlfriend and our attempts to obtain ultimate cosmic power.

Instead of continuing to risk a pointless death in this hell hole.

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Thr Kurgan don't know shit about what happened to the dwarves and will probably just tell us that morghur killed them all ages ago if anything.

Even if that isn't the case, The kurgan have no reason to believe otherwise.

Our job here was to ascertain Karag Dum's fate, its still there, it's messing around with shit it shouldn't be. We are in no position to do anything about it if they actually are a threat.

Job's done, smashing successm, we even saved a different noncorrupt Karak along the way!

We've gone above and beyond, lets turn around, fulfill our end of the deal with the ice witch, and go home to do actually interesting stuff.

I wanna see the whole "Now legally a dwarf" thing! Damnit!

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You really need to accept the possibility that people can find something interesting even if you do not.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

how do we feel about a relic mountain?

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Not how those work. Relic Blades are created when Chaos screws up creating a Chaos Weapon, usually through the use of reagents that were too metaphysically pure for it to corrupt.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

RE: 6, the praying thing is what I meant. It just naively seem impossible to get a Runesmith or Runelord to do it -- it's like a slaaneshi slayer, but somehow worse, and you have to get a magical Priest (as all Runesmiths are priests of Thungni) to do it.

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The whole deal with Karak Dum is that they were considered Radical Runesmiths before they were pushed to extreme measures. The entire way here, the ongoing theme has been "I hope they haven't done anything too extreme to survive". I also question if this is more extreme than enslaving the forces of Chaos whilst working with Elgi? I don't think it is.

RE: 2 & 3: My preferred theory [ELGI] assumes that Dum basically carved out a bubble (semi-Vlag style) and the Hold is basically somewhere else. This explains the disappearance of the mountain range, where the forest came from, and the crater (assuming the effect is spherical). The problem with the Runesmith in disguise theory, here, is that it doesn't provide a way that the Runesmiths actually could do any of that.

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They could have just achieved the same thing with radical runes? We don't know what they can do.

 

[Rafin]

Anyway. Voting. That's a thing, right?

[X] THEORY: I. Don't. Know. What. The. Fuck. Is. Going. On.

[X] ACTION: I am not leaving until I do know What The Fuck Is Going On.

Edit:

[X] ACTION: Ride after Borek before you lose him in the forest, Cor-Dum be damned. Jus use stealth magic and don't antagonize any furry people.

[x] ACTION: Convert to Chaos, go back to the Dolgan and ask to be educated in their ways.

And approving basically any and all "stay" votes. Because I don't care how suicidal, I am pulling an Omegahugger. Except replace "Necromancy is the answer to everything" with "I must know, even if it costs me my soul".

[x] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
[x] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] ACTION: The cure for confusion is curiosity, and there are two other fronts attacking Dum. The rest of the Expedition should pull clear for now, though. You can catch up.
[x] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
[x] [Action] Scout the other fronts, ask other expedition members for what they might have happened, check with the other wizards what their expertise tell them about the magical and natural environments.
[x] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[x] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[x] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[x] ACTION: either feign retreat while we secretly return to scout out the situation, or fort up while we scout out the situation. Scout to determine whether there are actually dwarves on the inside, whether they've gone over to chaos, and whether they would actually want to leave.
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] ACTION: Very careful scouting. Both by the knights, dwarves and Mathilde. Starting with inanimate matter and other disposable stuff(like the cows) to determine where the edges-borders of the effect are and just what the hell the effect is without entering it, while the convoy digs in and readies itself to attack, from behind or from the Karag. If that doesn't lead to some clarity, more aggressive scouting may be needed. Either way, Karag Dum is still a part of the Karak Ankor, and there are ways that link them could be used by demons to hurt the whole realm, especially now that Vlag is back and the links reestablished. So while a part of me might prefer as the wise option to turn back, we cannot leave such a threat without establishing its exact nature, if only so I can bring back news of what to do to about it to King Belegar and the High King.
[x] ACTION: First, before any council shout at Borek that he owes us some anwsers before he leaves and that we are ready to hear him despite whatever is happening here. If it doesn't work. Send a volunteer to try and enter the forest as Borek did : 1. If the volunter is attacked or mutates turn back. 2. If the volunter is denied access but doesn't mutate or get attacked, try to ask an audience somehow : ask to the beastmen, scream to the forest, creative solutions. If no anwser, turn back. 3. If the volunter is let though unharmed, have him come back do go investigate ourselves.
[x] ACTION: Mathilde will infiltrate the hold and look for more answers. In the mean time the convoy should circle the Steam-Wagons and avoid provoking a fight they can't win. If she has not returned within 24 hours they should turn back and attempt to make their way back to civilisation to inform the Karaz Ankor, Empire and Kislev what they found.

 

[Siual]

3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."

... Huh.

Is this... The Rune of Valaya in action?


Belt of the Unshackled Mountain: A protective runic talisman made for you in repayment for your actions during the Sieges of the Drakenhofs.
Spellburner Rune: The first rune is a variation on the Spelleater Rune. When a hostile spell is targeted against you, it will not only counter it but also burn - literally burn - the knowledge of it from the mind of the caster. It will be dormant for twelve hours after each use.
Rune of Rancour: The second is based on the Master Rune of Spite, but somehow combined with the Rune of Fortitude. It will grant you the strength to withstand wounds, while returning twofold any strike against whoever dealt it to you.
Rune of Valaya's Vengeance: The third, the largest and most intricate of the three incorporates elements of both the Rune of the Furnace and the Rune that Valaya gave to the dwarves that allowed them to weather the coming of Chaos. It will grant you such resistance to flame that you could wade through lava, and burn off any taint of chaos before it could even touch you.

Holy fuck.

Did they tune some huge Karak-Rune of Valaya to "burn off all the taint from Morghur"?

Is that what the fucking did?

Holy shit. Is that why it's so hot here, and why there is so little comparative Dhar in here?

They tuned a Karak-Rune to purify Morghur's corruption.

Oh my god.

Is THAT what they did? O_O

I haven't read through the discussion at all (aha, 60 pages to catch up on? Well'p) so I don't know if anybody else has said this before (I only just copied the "point 3" from some poster, barely read their post, so I don't know if they even say this) but...

Fuuuuuuuuck. If that's what is happening, then, holy shit.

So the Dawi are using their art to purify Beastmen.

While culturally believing that the arts of the Ancients are supposed to be used to protect a Dwarf from Chaos and the Winds of Magic.

But instead, they turned their art to burning away corruption, so that they could get a friendly(?) sane(?) maybe Dum-born maybe Dum-captured Morghur to defend them.

Holy SHIT.


... Okay.

I am... Now more optimistic about what is going on at Karag Dum.

And, in fact, the idea of them using the Runes of Valaya to burn away corruption and use the results/consequences of what-were-once-corrupted beings to defend themselves... It fits. It would suck and weigh at the Dawi soul and spirit. But it's not necessarily horrible Chaos Dwarf tier shit. Just... things that nobody had thought of or figured out how to judge.

Wow.

On the bright side, this makes me more willing to believe that "just walk into Karag Dum and start talking" might actually not be suicidal.

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[] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

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It's not implausible, but ultimately doesn't in of itself answer 'where did the forest come from' nor 'why is the dwarf treating Borek like family' (as others have already remarked).

The great Karak-rune of Valaya could be actively burning away the environmental Dhar while another (Dawi or Dawi+Elgi) method allowed Morghur to retain his sanity and turn down his omnicorruption aura. The Rites of Valaya performed at birth (perhaps as part of a more complex process) still seems like the most likely culprit for this, if we're going by information we currently have.

It is, however, a great theory to suggest to the council. It presents a plausible scenario where Karag Dum is not lost to chaos and the conclusion of the expedition is not "There are no more Dawi in Karag Dum, we turn back." Alternative variations on "They enthralled a chaos demigod", even though we might find them on the side of acceptable, are less likely to be considered good reasons for sticking around for the specifics.

Therefore switching my theory vote to;

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.

 

[CornyBones]

Borek better come back with answers swear to gazul.

 

[HungryHamadryad]

Seems compatible with Omegahugger and the idea of Beastmen being used as auxiliaries, and might neatly explain why he's not mutating everyone around him, and how he was socialized. I'm willing to put it forward, though my only hole to poke at is... where's the flame? Maybe it's just a far more refined effect so the 'burning' of the Dhar is occurring at a level imperceptible to us, but there's no obvious source of the heat around. One would think we'd be able to see the streams of Dhar overhead bursting into flaming clouds as they entered the range of the effect, or something.

[x] Omegahugger
[x] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

 

[Boney]

@BoneyM - Does the word "Cor" mean anything particularly interesting in Eltharin?

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No, the closest would be 'Tor' for 'city' or 'settlement'.

 

[ninjafish]

You really need to accept the possibility that people can find something interesting even if you do not.

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Or maybe everyone else just needs to accept that I am always right?

no but seriously, it's very unlikely were gonna get anything out of this, dwarves keep their secrets locked up tight.

If borek wasn't willing to explain then I doubt were getting answers about any of this anytime soon.

But go ahead I guess.

Throw yourselves at the mountain and forest full Beastmen(?) and risk the end of the quest for merely sating curiousity..

but know that there is no reason to stick around, it doesn't get us anything.

 

[Boney]

Or maybe everyone else just needs to accept that I am always right?

no but seriously, it's very unlikely were gonna get anything out of this, dwarves keep their secrets locked up tight.

If borek wasn't willing then I doubt were getting answer about any of this anytime soon.

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Then lead with that, instead of calling other people wrong for being interested in what I've written.

 

[CornyBones]

You know, as someone who built a huge Doom Tower that blew up a massive army, we may have a lot in common with the Dwarves of Karak Dum.

 

[NuclearConsensus]

Fuck me I finally caught up. That was quite the exhausting journey, and I'm still just as confused before.

Some replies.

Morghurs full title is Morghur the Shadowgave. The Gave is important there: it refers to the human practice of giving up mutated babies to live among beastmen, instead of killing them.
But if a child that would have been a gave was instead raised by dwarves, under valayan wards and stone...

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Hey, maybe that's why the Yusak are out of favor? They gave the would-be Morghur to Dum?

My theory is that the moment Morghur was bound, the moment he was tamed, he stopped being of Ghur and started being of Ghyran

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Probably not? I doubt the beastmen would be following him in that case, plus we'd have to start calling him Morghyran instead and that's not as snappy.

All I can say is: a Grudge on Borek for not explaining anything.

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Hey, Mathilde's a dwaef now (legally anyway.) She could totally put a grudge on Borek for this.

 

[Rafin]

Considering the name, let's go with Mount Ngauruhoe as the reference mountain.

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Thanks!

A two kilometer high mountain.

And is the crater more of the really wide or really steep variety?

 

[Boney]

Thanks!

A two kilometer high mountain.

And is the crater more of the really wide or really steep variety?

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Wide. The sand means the descent from the lip is relatively gentle.

 

[HungryHamadryad]

You know, as someone who built a huge Doom Tower that blew up a massive army, we may have a lot in common with the Dwarves of Karak Dum.

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Oh and, y'know, have the Liber Mortis in our bookshelf next to our reading skull throne. Totally not a heretical wizard btw.