- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Does it cost anything at all?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
There's no pattern that Mathilde has been able to identify, and for what I hope are obvious reasons she's erred on the side of dispel-and-flense instead of letting it happen to gather data. She checks them every day or so.
If this was a thing that could happen, Frederick van Hal would have done it with Morr, or the Cult of Sigmar would have done it at some point in the centuries they've been sitting on a copy of the Liber Mortis, or the Priest Kings of Nehekhara would have done it at some point in their long conflict with Nagash.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
First, I'm like 99% sure before Nagash ganked their connection to the gods the Nehekharans had an afterlife. Second, the first Ushabti, prior to Nagash, were just god-blessed heroes. Sort of like really pious Templar Knights of the Empire, but even more of them. There is currently conflicting canon on whether Nehekharan constructs including post-broken covenant Ushabti are animated by the souls of the dead or by non-Lizardmen geomancy. Third the Mortuary Priests never actually bound their souls to their bodies, what they become is essentially just 'Sufficiently Advanced Shysh Contamination' that stops them from dying of old age and leaves them husks - living husks, but husks none the less.
Finally bringing back all the Tomb Kings and binding them to their bodies is all Nagash. He deserves credit for that, but he got ganked before he could finish the ritual and enslave them.
EDIT: Timeline of events is 'Nagash breaks Covenant with gods of Nehekhara, everyone gets booted out of the afterlife to wander the wastes as wailing spirits eternally' -> 'Nagash binds them to their mummified bodies and forces them to rise again'.
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The whole reason that the Mortuary Cult existed is because the Nehekharans learned what they believed was the true fate of mortal souls, to either disintegrate from the shock of death, or, if strong enough, to be devoured by daemons or other Aethyric entities. That's they were obsessed with material immortality, because they didn't believe there was an afterlife that was worth living.
The Ushabti were not ever simply god blessed heroes. They were stone statues with the souls of dead heroes that the gods found worthy bound to them.
The Liche Priests literally did bind their souls to their living but eternally aging bodies. That's how the fifth generation of the Mortuary Cult's priests learned how to transform themselves into liches.
Nagash did not bind the souls of the Tomb Kings to their bodies. The Mortuary Cult did that. Nagash's spell merely animated them.
This is all described in great detail in Liber Necris, which is most likely to be a reliable source on this kind of ancient history, being based on the indepth research of an expert in the field, rather than legends told thousands of years later by unknown authors.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Without weighing in on the current bout of thread madness per se, I will point out that the vampire skulls in our possession are a valid object for research and have been listed as such for some time. How much can we learn from actually doing so? Well, to steal Boney's favorite line, we possess the capability to perform a practical evaluation of the matter and gain understanding thereby.
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- They/Them
...What? I think we're talking about entirely different sets of canon here, because the Mortuary Cult existed solely because Settra wanted to live forever. Also they literally had a god of the dead. What was his job supposed to be if they thought souls just disappeared.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
It outright stated that Mathilde's goal would be to "overcome the final enemy of life", AKA death, and it was also made by me, so it was definitely 'go full necromancy'. Possibly with some godhood on the side because if you don't go God then you don't go full Nagash.
But that brings me to what I really want to talk about.
This is a refrain that pops up pretty often (that Mathilde resisted the urge to use necromancy to bring back Abel and that she therefore wouldn't go for it unless things got worse than that), and while it definitely isn't wrong I don't think it's quite true either.
Because following the theory that the thread influences Mathilde's state of mind, the Sylvania campaign isn't actually when she was most tempted by Dhar. That would be between Turn 17.5 and Turn 18, the collegiate interlude. When Mathilde was not in mortal danger surrounded by Dhar, but instead surrounded by likeminded collegues and able to calmly consider what she wanted to do with her life, that's the moment when the largest amount of voters -both percentage-wise and in absolute numbers- went for necromancy. And while yes, the option to go full Nagash only got 8 votes, it's worth remembering that this was in the pre-hiatus days, where 8 votes represent a much larger part of the total score. Going with Belegar into the Karak-8-Peaks (the option that seeking Necromancy lost to) only got 37 votes. And a difference of just 29 votes would be considered a pretty close vote by modern standards, all things considered.
So what does that imply for Mathilde? Well first off, it wasn't an irrational heat-of-the-moment kind of thought that really got to her. Yes, dark thoughts in a Dhar-emblazened place did affect her, but that was not what drove her closest to actually going through with it. Hell, Abel was dead and buried at this point, and conventional wisdom stated that he'd be now safely stored in Morr's garden away from necromancy's grasp (we did later find evidence indicating that this isn't neccesarily the case, but that took literal years to appear and so isn't relevant for this discussion), so despite my constant whining that can't have been her motivation either. Instead, it was the first time in the Quest that Mathilde was allowed to truly decide for herself what she wanted to do that the idea of what exactly a wizard of her caliber could do with power like that crept into her mind. And much like the thread that guides her actions, it is largely these possibilities that tempt her.
Because yes, Mathilde is, honest to Gods, tempted by the usage of Dhar. It is a small, but consistent thread that pops up in her mind on occasion. She listed the Liber Mortis as one of her not-yet-ready apocalypse weapons, separate from the Second Secret. Just a few updates ago, Mathilde couldn't make herself claim that her initial temptation for Dhar was entirely due to environment (and I'll remind you that Mathilde is a regular champion at the "I
On the list of great rulers who did great things at great costs, she lists Frederick. You know, the guy who's more or less singlehandedly responsible for Eastern Stirland's Dhar problem. She considers that sacrifice worth it, that collossal amount of damage -both material and to his own legacy- to be worth it. And that's not a thought you have unless you have seriously considered if you would do something similar and come to terms with it.
And I do think that Mathilde is aware of this, at least subconsciously.
Think about it: The moment when Mathilde took her magister exam is actually the point in the Quest's history where her loyalties were the least divided. Abel was dead, she had been fired from Stirland and the shadowy conspiracy had been wiped out. All that's left is her duties as a member of the college, and she was literally asked in what manner she wanted to fulfill said duties. This was Mathilde with the most professional freedom, and what did she choose? To almost immediately divide her loyalties yet again and seek service under a new lord.
Which does ask the question of why would she do that? Well, obviously part of the reason is that the Dawi did her a solid during the Sylvania campaign and she wanted to pay them back, but the vote does kinda reveal a different possibility. The most popular goal aside from working with dwarves was to seek knowledge by studying the magical phenomena of Sylvania, and we know Mathilde would love to do this. She loves to poke at ancient mysteries that no one can figure out and then watch their faces as she reveals how she managed to solve the puzzle. She loves this so much Belegar essentially invented a new court position for her to do it. So I think, when Mathilde actively chose not to pursue this path in Sylvania, part of the reason is that she deep down doesn't trust herself to stay on the right path. She recognizes that she could do great and terrible things if she delved into Dhar, and she couldn't say for certain that if she studied Dhar-shaped manifestations in what is basically Dhar central she wouldn't fall prey to the temptation to try and use it. And hence she made sure to work under someone else again, to have that added reason to keep herself from going full Dark Lady.
It is also worth noting that during this Post-Abel Pre-Belegar period is arguably when Mathilde was the most alone since being picked up by the Grey College. A large part of her support structure had just died, she had just been told her services were no longer required for what she felt were bullshit reasons and the scar of Sigmar's abandonment was still fresh and throbbing at this point. The systems of the Empire had, to put it mildly, failed her at this point. Which is probably one of the reasons why her immediate actions was to leave the place. And if you want to keep Mathilde from practising necromancy, that's also where I'd place my focus.
Yes, you have to keep her loved ones from dying.
Yes, you have to keep the threats to Order from growing so cataclysmal that she has to break out the big guns.
But more importantly, you have to keep Mathilde's ties to other people. You have to keep her loyalties divided enough that she metaphysically can't turn to Dhar without grieviously hurting the people she loves. Because historically speaking, that seems like the time when she's most inclined to consider the Dark Arts.
Sorry if this came off as too rambly. I had a doctor's appointment in the middle of writing this post, so if it comes off as a bit disjointed that's probably why.
The Mortuary Cult was founded because Settra wanted to live forever. That doesn't explain why it became such a cultural obsession, or why people carried on caring so much after he was dead.
You can have a god of the dead without needing him to be in charge of an extra-dimensional afterlife, just as you can have a god of agriculture without all the food being grown in some separate farming dimension.
They also didn't think souls disappeared. Their research appeared to show that they disintegrated or were eaten unless the Mortuary Cult intervened to protect them. Just as the farms that a god of agriculture might have in its portfolio wouldn't exist without human effort to create and preserve them, neither would the material afterlife that the Mortuary Cult were building. Of course a God of the dead would be important, because they'd need a patron of their efforts to protect and preserve the dead. They didn't think it just happened naturally and for free like the modern Empire, they believed that safeguarding the dead required expensive and elaborate rituals performed by the Mortuary Cult (who probably worshipped said god of the dead and used His divine magic to perform those rituals to create an afterlife in the material world).
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
If you're getting all of this from Liber Necris then I'm not sure what set of canon that's supposed to be, needless to say extradimensional afterlives are a thing in Warhammer - and what cannot be denied is that the gods of Nehekhara invested more in their followers than any others did, so why wouldn't they have an afterlife? Everything I've seen elsewhere seems to contradict you, so what exactly puts this one source above the rest?
Extradimensional afterlives are a thing that some characters in Warhammer believe exist, and other characters who should be acknowledged experts in the field are absolutely adamant doesn't*, and can cite personal experience from having the senses to perceive what happens to souls when people die and the fact that Necromancy exists and functions as described in support of their assertions.
Whether Morr's Garden is real or a comforting lie people in the Old World tell themselves is (usually) left deliberately ambiguous, which appears to have been a deliberate choice for much of the existence of the line. Now, it's pretty certain that an extra-dimensional afterlife exists for Chaos Champions that achieve daemon princehood, but that's not really what we're talking about.
* Well, they claim that any extra dimensional afterlife is nasty, brutish, and short, rather than non-existent.
The Nehekharan God of the Dead granting his priests miracles to allow them to build an afterlife in the physical world is a very substantial investment, so I don't see why it's contradictory. The Nehekharan physical afterlife the Mortuary Cult built/were building and Nagash defiled is one of the few we can verify, as the Tomb Kings are living it.
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Look you're running on such a different conception and canon of the setting to me that this won't be productive and it's 12am, I'm out.
Wow, who would of thought that of all the chaos gods, it's Nurgle that Mathilde is most vulnerable to.
Because what you described there is that depression, loss and isolation are the biggest factors in Mathilde considering necromancy, all of which are well within Nurgle's Domain.
It's not Tzeentch's promise of secrets, or Slaanesh's promise of desire that tempts her, because Matihlde is self-actualised in both of those areas, but Nurgle's promise of "why not—the worst has already happened" that could draw Mathilde down the path of darkness.
Truly, the Lord of Despair deserves his status as eldest of the four.
I'm pretty sure Nurgle would hate the thought of necromancer Mathilde as much as any of his Brothers. The Dark Gods really hate Necromancy, arguably more than the Order Gods do.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
For what it's worth, @Nurgle did rate my post Insightful.
I meant playing IRL with actual minis. Which with official GW minis & a horde army is ruinous.
Tabletop Simulator costs just the game on Steam.
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I feel like necromancy is a horrible abomination against life and death cycle. At least when you die in my service you go to a afterlife in a garden and get to spend eternity knowing that your god love you.
I wasn't aware the Chaos Gods had beef with necromancy in general. I knew they didn't like vampires, because vampires are unchanging, but I didn't expect that to extend to the entirety of undeath. Which, uh, kind of makes sense now that I say it outloud.
Still, my point still kind of stands, because necromancy is only the most convenient dark lore available to Mathilde right now. If she had access to another dark lore, I'm sure she'd just be as tempted by that as she currently is by necromancy.
Hmm, maybe we should obtain grimoires on other dark lores.
You know, just in case.
- Location
- USA
What are the other dark lores? Chaos (which gets a big NO from literally everyone in the thread), Druchii Dark Magic, Skaven Lores of Ruin/Plague (which are semi-divine iic), and Lore of Stealth?
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Going by precedence, Mathilde should study the Lore of Mork.
She chose adventure? To go and be useful somewhere, and to help out a good cause?
She chose to get away from Stirland/Sylvania and the Empire, and go do something adventurous and dangerous, and also something new and where her magic abilities might find a unique niche and stuff.
It wasn't until after the end of the expedition that she really/fully chose to serve under Belegar, as somebody serving a new lord. Until then, she was more like a mercenary or ally from the Empire, coming to help out their ancestral allies.
Her loyalties may not have been divided, but her desires/goals/ambitions might have been. That is: she was a bit aimless.
I didn't see that as a choice based around "I'll subordinate my loyalty again!" but rather "I feel like I need something to do." "This is something, and it's good." "Let's do this, then." Wanting purpose or excitement or interest or to help do somebody a solid.
Hrmm... That's certainly one pov, I guess. On temptation or corruption or intrusive thoughts or etc.
Mine would be something like: "Do I want to go back to Sylvania?" "Mrgh." "It has bad and tragic memories, it's full of dark magic, and there'd be tensions or uncertainties or whatever with the new Elector Countess." "On the other hand, it does have my friends though." "And it was where I did my Journeying, and accomplished a lot of stuff." "On the other other hand, the ending kind of sucked." Stirland and Sylvania were pain and familiarity and triumph and loss all in one pile.
It's like... Yeah, somebody might be worried about sticking around and studying magic in Sylvania, and potentially running afoul of Dhar or corruption. Yes.
That is not an unreasonable or unusual position for a person to take. It doesn't necessarily require insecurities or deep fears. Or, heck, you could have insecurities or fears about yourself and just... be wrong about that. ((Sort of like, well, like the way if you handed somebody a sword or a gun and they then started fretting and worrying as they pictured themselves accidentally stabbing somebody or shooting somebody. Does that mean they don't trust themselves with a weapon, or does it mean that they fear they have a core of violence inside them somewhere? No. Not necessarily, anyway. It's literally... well... just 'intrusive thoughts', as GrimTheMad said.)) Not trusting yourself to be able to function in Sylvania, or perhaps merely not wanting to be in Sylvania, is not that strange.
Another possibility though, is... fear and respect of a corruptive power. i.e. Respecting the ability of Dhar or Chaos to tempt people, and thinking to yourself that "'I'd never fall for it!' is probably exactly how some amount of people thought, before falling for it." It's a paranoid's or suspicious person's mindset.
A measure of respect for a threat.But finally though, there's one other big thing to think about, too... Namely that -- it's been 7 years. 7 years in-game, and almost 3 years IRL. Mathilde has changed. Or perhaps just... solidified or settled. She's different from who or what she was like, in Stirland, shortly post-Stirland becoming a fresh Magister.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Is that a dark lore? I suppose there's only really 'lore lores' and 'dark lores' and not many people would appreciate slotting Divine Orkish lores into the 'order' side of things, but Dark Lores usually imply some level of Dhar, right?
Unless you're just suggesting other lores in general, which, technically speaking, becoming an out and out priest of ranald and channeling his divine power has exactly the same key points as the Lore of Mork, and she started working with Ranald far earlier!
...wait, no, if this is defined by 'whose energy has been used on her first', then it'd have to be *Morr*, from her dooming. Damnit, we're gonna have to respec so much!
Lore of the deep might or might not be thing.
It's a total war invention, but a cool one.
Necromancy is a complicated subject, and the more specific you get the more tangled a knot it really is. For instance, there are extant tomb kings who would arguably have been better to live under than a good number of the claimants to the throne of the Empire throughout the era of three emperors. There are many tomb kings and vampires who could be described as 'literally worse than Hitler', and precious few that might be considered ethical rulers - but one thread of commonality is that almost none of them benefit from Chaos making gains.
From a metaphysical standpoint, there's a reason that the use of necromancy by the forces of Chaos is an outlier at most.
Depends how you define them really. Off the top of my head...
Undeath/Nehekara, Vampires, Great Maw, Little and Big Waaagh, and the Wild (beastmen).
Lore of the Serpent may also apply depending on your lizardmen interpretation, and more specifically, your view on Sotek.