Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
I resent that. The mk IV on it isn't by accident; I spent a ton of the moratorium putting it together and soliciting feedback from people, which I then incorporated because other folks had great ideas and criticisms. The reason I made it in the first place was that a bunch of people asked for a grab-bag option to vote for but didn't want to make it themselves because it turns out that thinking of eight moderately cool things is harder than thinking of one very cool thing! It wasn't even the thing I spent most of the vote campaigning for, but it's the thing I put the most work into because it took work. You've known me for long enough to know what I'm like when it comes to planmaking. I responded to all the feedback I got over the course of the long moratorium and then went to bed. I don't know what else I could have done other than "have better ideas during the moratorium".

Like. I understand the feeling of "ugh, just not that," when looking at the tally, because I felt that way while the airship was winning, and other people have posted at length about how they feel that way about the armor. It sucks. I don't have a solution to this. I know a lot of people felt that way about the library five years ago, because they said so and it was accordingly delayed until end-of-arc, but at least that time there was only one thing with any sort of momentum behind it, not three wildly different ones. I'm not exactly proud to have put together something that seems to have as its primary selling point "is least hated," but I'm not apologizing for it either, and I gave it all the baking that people could help me with before the vote went live.
I'm sorry. I was being thoughtless, it was wrong, and you didn't deserve that.

I took my frustration - and frustration with things completely unrelated to this quest - and let some of it spill onto you. I'll try to do better next time - for now I've struck that paragraph out from the original post.
But I'll be damned if I acknowledge knife fighting as a feature rather than a bug. Vote discussion should be about developing and comparing ideas, not fighting over the forum equivalent of Search Engine Optimization.
Since I got carried away with that post (It's 1:41 am oh my god), I forgot to mention one important thing:

I am not arguing for the vote to suddenly be closed. If there was a time for closing the vote to be a relief valve, that was weeks ago - as of right now...
'Stretched out in this limbo'. 'This cycle will repeat itself'.

There are 35 more votes in the tally now than there was three days ago.
...by another mysterious unspoken movement of players in the vein of a poll falling silent in favor of general thread talk, people are coming back to clarify and re-evaluate their positions.

And, well, on the whole of it I suppose that's a good thing. The more people who turn their eyes here and take notice, the more likely the result will be representative.

I maintain that knife fighting is a bug. But it is also a multidimensional and mostly unsolved problem, at least in the context of forum questing. Maybe we'll learn something about it from here, but while it's a common safeguard to have scheduled vote ends so no matter what the knives eventually get put down, it's not universal, and it has its own trade-offs.

I don't expect you to have all the answers, Boney. And I definitely didn't mean to try and make you feel bad. This isn't about blame.

But as the time of night and my first reply in this post should indicate, I'm clearly not in a good state of mind to articulate what it should be about, either.

It felt off. Best way I can put it, I guess.
 
What's the argument for the Armor of von Tarnus? I can see why people want the flying ship, or an assortment of vaguely interesting favours, but what does armor add to Mathilde?
Given this quest is purely following Mathilde, and will end if she dies, armor that adds a giant layer of Don't Fucking Die is of rather obvious utility and importance. :V
 
Last edited:
I'm not exactly proud to have put together something that seems to have as its primary selling point "is least hated," but I'm not apologizing for it either, and I gave it all the baking that people could help me with before the vote went live.

You should feel proud, that is how the system works, that is how compromise works. Least hated also means most liked, never forget that. Yes the people who are very passionate about one plan tend to dominate the conversation, but the ones who just drop in a vote from time to time also deserve to have their voice heard. I will one hundred times take the world where a compromise vote wins over one where everyone white-knuckles their first choice.
 
...You're taking what the part of "campaigning" I was talking about overbroadly, which, I guess is a little to be expected because there's not a lot of vocabulary that distinguishes each part of championing a vote in a forum quest.

The closest term I have for it is "knife fighting". It's not the brainstorming, it's not the research, it's not the Q&A, it's not the plan drafting or editing.

It's the raw, reflexive struggle to not let the other guy have the last word. The fight over the recency effect, to determine the framing of the choice for the next few hours, the grinding chore of making sure you are seen by people who don't have time to read the whole thread, the feeling that that vote swing that happened overnight when neither you nor anyone who is championing your thesis was awake and the only thing on the page was somebody speaking against it and now you have to make up for that.

It's advertisement disguised as discussion. Putting your plan and the reasoning behind it in front of as many eyes as possible, while everyone else is trying the same thing. And the mindset to do it is blinkered as all hell. I reiterate that moratoriums exist in part so that people can do all of the functions of quest gameplay that are productive without the specter of knife fighting distorting or distracting from it.

In any situation, if you have an alternative to knife fighting for doing what you're using knife fighting for, it is better to do that than knife fighting.

...

That continuous struggle to keep that information visible is one form of knife fighting. And that is not a core part of the gameplay of quests, it is a flaw that basic information about factual rules and voting positions can be distorted or buried if one side presses their case and the other does not long enough for a new page to turn over.

...

But I'll be damned if I acknowledge knife fighting as a feature rather than a bug. Vote discussion should be about developing and comparing ideas, not fighting over the forum equivalent of Search Engine Optimization.

I think if you don't like doing this knife-fighting, you shouldn't be doing it. I think if you like spreading information like with the FAQ, you should be doing exactly as much of that as you want to do. I think that whether and how much a given tactic contributes to the victory of the option you prefer should always be secondary to whether you want to be doing it in the first place. I think that if anyone feels obliged to engage in knife-fighting for the sake of their 'side', then they're going to ruin the enjoyment they get out of the quest.

(I snipped the FAQ stuff out of the quote not to minimize it, but because it's great and it needs no further discussion)

This is what I mean when I talk about it being about playing, rather than winning. Not that knife-fighting is the base unit of engagement, but that victory can't be. Like, you can want to win when you go onto a soccer field or whatever, but if you aren't getting enjoyment out of chasing and kicking the ball, if you need to be the one to get the most points to justify the time you spent on the field, you're not going to have a good relationship with the game.

I could go around and quote all the people who are demonstrating this exact dynamic, but that'd be kind of shitty because a sudden swing in fortune has a way of putting people off balance. But at least in the medium term, people do need to rediscover their peace with the idea that they might 'lose'. I mean, I'm kind of just assuming and hoping that everyone was at peace with that possibility before they started voting in the first place.

To whom it may concern: the bucket can only go down the sympathy well so many times before it bounces off dry rock, and it'd be a good idea for people to have stopped being catty by that point.
 
Given this quest is purely following Mathilde, and will end if she dies, armor that adds a giant layer of Don't Fucking Die is of rather obvious utility and importance. :V

And yet, I'm really interested in what stealthy clever tricks Mathilde can pull off to accomplish her goals anyway, without relying on super durable armor.
 
I don't super like posting another vote tally so soon after the first one, but it is useful to note that Prismatic Wanderer is actually making a comeback. If some people still want the airship over Pickle's plan (Though I do respect that plan, for the record), then they could un-approval vote to vote for just the Prismatic Wanderer and get it back up to first place. At least for as long as that keeps one of the two above the approval threshold. I will be, at least.
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
Adhoc vote count started by Execute/Dumbo on Mar 27, 2025 at 3:00 AM, finished with 4626 posts and 347 votes.
 
For what it's worth, Pickles plan is genuinely my favorite of the bunch. I might be alone in this, but the variant doesn't mesh with me because I'm not into cloudkill. I can think of half a dozen things I'd like to spend favor on, and doubling down on saving AP and getting stuff Mathilde and the thread wanted with no previous plan to get it is genuinely exciting.
 
Like. I understand the feeling of "ugh, just not that," when looking at the tally, because I felt that way while the airship was winning, and other people have posted at length about how they feel that way about the armor. It sucks. I don't have a solution to this. I know a lot of people felt that way about the library five years ago, because they said so and it was accordingly delayed until end-of-arc, but at least that time there was only one thing with any sort of momentum behind it, not three wildly different ones. I'm not exactly proud to have put together something that seems to have as its primary selling point "is least hated," but I'm not apologizing for it either, and I gave it all the baking that people could help me with before the vote went live.
I didn't really see it like that tbh. It is a good option, its just not extravagant. Which like, yes, least hateable sure, but its missing why its least polarizing.

Its just a very solid good investment. (I do specifically like the bit where we will learn what the fuck was up with Hexensohn, that shit has been bugging me for half a decade. Someone please tell me).
 
I don't super like posting another vote tally so soon after the first one, but it is useful to note that Prismatic Wanderer is actually making a comeback. If some people still want the airship over Pickle's plan (Though I do respect that plan, for the record), then they could un-approval vote to vote for just the Prismatic Wanderer and get it back up to first place. At least for as long as that keeps one of the two above the approval threshold. I will be, at least.
[X] Plan: The Prismatic Wanderer
Eh, I'd say keep approval votes for some of the plans farther down the list, give 'em a chance to become contenders.
I think if you don't like doing this knife-fighting, you shouldn't be doing it. I think if you like spreading information like with the FAQ, you should be doing exactly as much of that as you want to do. I think that whether and how much a given tactic contributes to the victory of the option you prefer should always be secondary to whether you want to be doing it in the first place. I think that if anyone feels obliged to engage in knife-fighting for the sake of their 'side', then they're going to ruin the enjoyment they get out of the quest.

(I snipped the FAQ stuff out of the quote not to minimize it, but because it's great and it needs no further discussion)

This is what I mean when I talk about it being about playing, rather than winning. Not that knife-fighting is the base unit of engagement, but that victory can't be. Like, you can want to win when you go onto a soccer field or whatever, but if you aren't getting enjoyment out of chasing and kicking the ball, if you need to be the one to get the most points to justify the time you spent on the field, you're not going to have a good relationship with the game.

I could go around and quote all the people who are demonstrating this exact dynamic, but that'd be kind of shitty because a sudden swing in fortune has a way of putting people off balance. But at least in the medium term, people do need to rediscover their peace with the idea that they might 'lose'. I mean, I'm kind of just assuming and hoping that everyone was at peace with that possibility before they started voting in the first place.

To whom it may concern: the bucket can only go down the sympathy well so many times before it bounces off dry rock, and it'd be a good idea for people to have stopped being catty by that point.
The irony is that I didn't even do any knife fighting for this vote. I looked at it and thought "yeah, air ship is cool, but I like eike better - oh, it's gaining no traction. Darn."

It's just so emblematic about what quest/vote anxiety can do to a person, and how pervasive that anxiety is, that it's impossible to leave out when explaining why a vote going on forever isn't necessarily a good thing - nor when explaining why some people might be worried about how easily they'll be able to take their mind off of future votes that seem to be settling down in the wake of a possible upset here.

And, well, "how could a vote going on longer be a bad thing" was the point of contention. Ergo, me trying to explain knife fighting and why tearing yourself away from doing it isn't actually easy.
 
Last edited:
I didn't really see it like that tbh. It is a good option, its just not extravagant. Which like, yes, least hateable sure, but its missing why its least polarizing.

Because it doesn't have to justify why all the trouble to get AV culminates in just one thing. If you like that one thing that is great, if you don't' like it (because you think the airship is a boondoggle or the armor disconnected from Mathilde's interests) then asking for many things, some of which match up with your interests becomes a good sell. At least that was my thought process when I approval voted it initially.
 
Last edited:
And yet, I'm really interested in what stealthy clever tricks Mathilde can pull off to accomplish her goals anyway, without relying on super durable armor.
And so am I, yet two of the closest encounters Mathilde has ever had to death came in the middle of attempts to solve things with stealthy clever tricks, and would have been massively safer with this armor.

The trapped in a cave surrounded by Orcs too close for Mathilde to cast clusterfuck? That came from an assassination attempt, and IIRC we broke ribs in that fight and could have died if "think of a way out" hadn't eaten all of our bad rolls.

And there's that time when we were assassinating our way through the College of Necromancy, and what do you know, it ends with combat, and involves Alkharad's claws ripping through Mathilde's liver with Aethyric Armour doing absolutely nothing.

Suffice to say, even if I agree with you and would rather not have to rely on super durable armor, Don't Fucking Die is really nice to have.
 
Last edited:
The trapped in a cave surrounded by Orks too close for Mathilde to cast clusterfuck? That came from an assassination attempt, and IIRC we broke ribs in that fight and could have died if "think of a way out" hadn't eaten all of our bad rolls.
The fun part is that with the Armour, Mathilde as she is right now (but not then, it would still be too much of a risk without our teleport cantrip and Branulhune) could probably straight up knock out the gates of that Karak and slaughter every greenskin there on her own.

EDIT:

The only way to deal with a combatant like that is either bring in magical weapons (which they did not have), Shaman (laughs in Waaaghbane), siege weapons (good luck leveraging that agains teleporter in a tunnel), or just disarm her and dearmour her (laughs in Branulhune and teleporting).

Mind you, i still probably would not want to roll those dice because yeah, what if you miscast smoke and mirrors due to constant casting, but it actually sounds feasible which is like... whew. How's Karak Drazh looking, by the way :V
 
Last edited:
The trapped in a cave surrounded by Orks too close for Mathilde to cast clusterfuck? That came from an assassination attempt, and IIRC we broke ribs in that fight and could have died if "think of a way out" hadn't eaten all of our bad rolls.

The orc thing is a solved problem, twice over in fact, orcs cannot see the invisible nor can they teleport. Not to say the armor is useless but there is a vast encounters of close encounters in the past that we would crush now armor or no armor.
 
Because it doesn't have to justify why all the trouble to get AV culminates in just one thing. If you like that one thing that is great, if you don't' like it (because you think the airship is a boondoggle or the armor disconnected from Mathilde's interests) then asking for many things, some of which match up with your interests becomes a good sell. At least that was my thought process when I approval voted it initially.
There is something to be said for giving everybody a bit of everything.

I just also want a bit of cataclysm apparition summoning! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

But alas, that variant is 90 votes in the hole.

(I snipped the FAQ stuff out of the quote not to minimize it, but because it's great and it needs no further discussion)
Also, having never actually touched base to see what you thought of my tally formatting shenanigans, I admit to having a bit of a smile on my face from reading this aside.

The trouble is just that the tally absolutely was not designed for that and the ensuing jank of forcing it to do FAQ links anyways makes pulling it off tricky. Not that it had a high bar to clear to be better than knife fighting, of course. :V
 
The fun part is that with the Armour, Mathilde as she is right now (but not then, it would still be too much of a risk without our teleport cantrip and Branulhune) could probably straight up knock out the gates of that Karak and slaughter every greenskin there on her own.
Tbf, as cathartic as that'd be that's something of a waste given that she does better work like, just about anywhere else. Putting aside my personal feelings it feels like the kind of thing people would laugh about but then still not do because they could be using that time to assassinate more warbosses or build more giant fuckoff doomsday towers, y'know.
 
Tbf, as cathartic as that'd be that's something of a waste given that she does better work like, just about anywhere else. Putting aside my personal feelings it feels like the kind of thing people would laugh about but then still not do because they could be using that time to assassinate more warbosses or build more giant fuckoff doomsday towers, y'know.
Oh yeah definitely. Imagine, thought.
 
The orc thing is a solved problem, twice over in fact, orcs cannot see the invisible nor can they teleport. Not to say the armor is useless but there is a vast encounters of close encounters in the past that we would crush now armor or no armor.
Oh absolutely, but the point remains that stealth or intrigue or assassination missions can very quickly become combat encounters, where in death is a possibility, and armor of Don't Fucking Die becomes quite nice to have.
 
>Silver Road Wars 2 begins
>Branulhune - check
>Our array of magic - check
>Armour of do not die - check

Eike cue Sounds, max volume "The only thing they fear is you" on broadcast.

EDIT: Can i just say how cool it is that one of our traits is Waaaghbane. Metal as fuck.

(Its Pirates of Carribean soundtrack if we pick Prismatic Wanderer and then broadside into their flank).
 
Last edited:
Oh absolutely, but the point remains that stealth or intrigue or assassination missions can very quickly become combat encounters, where in death is a possibility, and armor of Don't Fucking Die becomes quite nice to have.

Oh certainly, from a tactical PoV the value of the armor might be infinite, if it saves Mathilde's life. Personally though I would rather not take this moment to vote for maximum mechanical advantage. I can entirely understand other people having other priorities.
 
As someone who voted for Pickle Requests mk IV early on, I'm quite surprised at it's comeback. Pleasantly surprised.
Like, I actually really like it? It gets us a lot of things, and doesn't leave questions over if/how much we will use a specific thing.

Sure it doesn't give us the best possible airship. But it upgrades our gyrocarriage.
Sure it doesn't get the best possible armor. But it still gets us really good armor, and saves us an action. (Also We silk! We didn't wait so long for it not to use it!)
And it also gets us 6 more things which are great too.

I just wasn't terribly excited about the airship. Too big and expensive with not enough concrete uses.
 
If Armor of von Tarnus wins, we will have the maximum possible human-wizard-attainable levels of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed. If Pickle Requests wins, we will have a better-than-current level of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed. If neither wins, @Deathbybunnies posted a suggestion of using our Transcendent Boon from Vlag to ask for a trophy set of ithilmar armor they still have kicking around which we can then enchant or rune, which will probably give us a level of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed somewhere between the two, though closer to the robes because sadly mundane armor doesn't stack with AA unless you're literally von Tarnus or the elf equivalent.

(Also, because these are not my normal hours and given the current thread climate someone might justifiably be concerned -- I swear that the thing that woke me up after three hours due to anxiety is my actual job, not DL. Which may be worse in the abstract, but the point is that it isn't something anyone in this thread should feel personally bad about!)
 
If Armor of von Tarnus wins, we will have the maximum possible human-wizard-attainable levels of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed. If Pickle Requests wins, we will have a better-than-current level of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed. If neither wins, @Deathbybunnies posted a suggestion of using our Transcendent Boon from Vlag to ask for a trophy set of ithilmar armor they still have kicking around which we can then enchant or rune, which will probably give us a level of Don't Fucking Die To Getting Stabbed somewhere between the two, though closer to the robes because sadly mundane armor doesn't stack with AA unless you're literally von Tarnus or the elf equivalent.
I've tried to ask before, but does Ithilmar armour actually permit casting?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top