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Yeah, using stealth for initial advantage before eventually getting detected or not being able to get a killing blow in a surpise attack, and then having to engage in an open combat has been closer to Mathilde's standard operating procedure so far, not a failure state. Getting killed while in a said open combat would be a failure state, and Armor of Von Tarnus would go great ways in helping to prevent that.
 
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The reward is something that's technically supposed to advance our research.
The reward can be anything we want. And I don't want an airship. As soon as last turn, Mathilde had options to go to Ulthuan and Nehekhara - functionally speaking, she doesn't need an airship to go to far away places and have adventures or conduct research there. I'd rather get something else that I think will be more fun and more useful.
 
No, I just can't remember numbers I read for longer than five seconds.

With regard to your point about identifying options you don't want -- yeah, the thing is that we've had close votes in the past, but this is the first vote I can remember seeing where even the winning option has such a low percentage of the overall vote. It's common that stuff doesn't win with an outright majority in multiway votes, but usually it has at least 40%! The best anything is mustering this time is 37%; back in the end-of-last-arc vote, which was fairly tight and controversial, the winning option had 47% of the vote. I've been sitting here for the last few months kinda hoping that someone would drop the game-changer idea that makes everyone sit up and go YES, to avoid the outcomes where something wins and most of the thread is unhappy about it.

Am I the only one here who doesn't mind negative votes? :???:

Genuine question here, not trying to be snarky, but I figured with as many voters as this thread has most people had the same experience as I do, pairing down multiple vote options as far as necessary to get the best outcome possible by my own preferences. Structurally that is what multiple choice voting encourages which is (thread) democracy working as it should. Barring one vote where I got way too far into arguing against Tutor, my least favored, vs Waystones, my most favored, ( :oops: ) I've had a lot of fun voting, not just debating, actually working out what the voting treands are going to looks like, what arguments might work out for certain people tho sway them to a second or third choice
 
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[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Armor of von Tarnus
 
Am I the only one here who doesn't mind negative votes? :???:
I don't mind them, though I do wish we had a slam dunk choice for what to do with the boon. I'm personally very enthusiastic about the armor because it will turn us into a Jedi-Terminator, but a choice that just feels perfect would always be appreciated. Unfortunately, the colleges are too young and too weak to have stockpiled a large number of really big shinnies that we can't access without this boon.

So the biggest thing it has is either the armor and some of the storm of magic objects, or the magical manpower to work on a big project. Which are the two leading options and most of the options down the list. One of the ideas I've thought of in the months since this started was getting the colleges to create something which would allow us to shunt magic off into space - giving the waystone network another release valve- but I don't think it would be able to get anywhere near the popularity it would need to unseat the top contenders. That's basically true of most potential ideas at this point.
 
So after reading a really good blog that discusses history--particularly military history--of pre-modern times through the lens of media and popular culture, I thought I'd take a moment to give some brief analysis of Divided Loyalties on one of the recurring sets of subjects the blog covers: logistics, strategy, operations, and tactics.

Namely, do logistics get the major focus they deserve that serves as the backbone of any major military action? Do the strategies of the involved factions make sense for the given leadership of those factions? Do the operations they employ make sense (or even exist beyond being handwaved away)? And are the tactics plausible within the setting's defined rules?

And in contrast to many mainstream works these days, the answer to all of these questions in Divided Loyalties is pretty consistently "yes".

This is a very widespread failing, and it's one that I understand, to an extent. It is hard to make logistics compelling to read about. But I tried anyway, and what I found is that it's actually indirectly very possible because by thinking through the logistics, you find the pain points and those become plot points. Hungry soldiers isn't an adventure, but securing food can be. Walking along a road isn't an adventure, but scouting that road can be. Having good maps for this setting is absurdly helpful for this, because by drawing the path an army will take along an actual map you find the interesting problems a protagonist might face - a forest full of spiders, a volcano covered in Dragon Ogres, a lost Dwarfhold, Chaos Dwarves and Kurgans to be fought through or negotiated with.

While foraging for food--a required task for an army on the march if it isn't using supply caches laid out ahead of time--isn't really mentioned, the fact that Sylvania is populated decently with humans who grow food means that this task isn't impossible, either. The limited distances the army advances also makes it less of a problem.

When you're moving forces numbered in the tens of thousands around, if they rely on 'foraging' they end up doing so like a swarm of locusts. Hunting deer and picking berries can't sustain that sort of force, you need the caloric density of cultivated lands. Entire herds and harvests are fed into the maw, and even if you're nice about it and have gold or promissory notes distributed, there are people that are going to say no and then that no can't be accepted. It gets ugly in a way that will be remembered for a long time. If you expect the lands you're marching into to be paying taxes to you sometimes within your lifetime, better to rely on your own supply lines.

The wagon equation states that the further you have to use a wagon-based supply chain to an army, the less efficient that resupply gets because the horses/mules and cart drivers need to eat too, using up more and more of the supplies they're carrying in the first place. This is why making supply caches along the route you intend to advance or limiting your army's operation to a matter of days for lunges beyond your existing logistics is key--that, or having a resupply route by water, which is vastly more efficient.

When people speak of the Empire's blessings, too rarely do they bring up Grandfather Reik. If you exclude the Drakwald and the Forest of Shadows, shockingly little of the Empire is further than three days of wagon travel from navigable water:


The one criticism is that cavalry actually bring multiple horses with them on campaign--the warhorse (which is very expensive) is reserved for the actual battle, but you'd have a riding horse or two as well. For Demigryphs, this would be more challenging because of how it seems nigh-impossible for a demigryph to be tamed by a new rider if the previous one dies, and demigryphs would be even more expensive than a warhorse, so perhaps demigryphs are just so good that you don't even need a spare horse (or they use a riding horse outside of battle). The Winter Wolves might have a problem of giant wolves just not being so available that spares can be found, and perhaps they too use a riding horse outside of battle, but that seems unlikely given there is no mention of riding horses in the Karag Dum Expedition.

Wolves are one of the few animals that can keep pace with a human over long distances, so it makes sense to me that remounts would be unnecessary. Demigryphs have a lot more unknowns about their biology, but in the end genre conventions won out - these sorts of Knightly Orders are characterized as having incredibly close bonds with their steeds, and having them riding a regular ol' horse around most of the time and only getting on the pupper or kittybird for special occasions is just kind of lame. Though to make up for it, their appetites are immense and difficult.

Finally, the Battle for Shirokij Forest. Here is perhaps the most problematic showcase of logistical concerns, with things like "everyone but the women, children, and elderly are warriors ready to march for battle on very short notice" raising lots of questions about where some of these forces find the time to train for more than just basic combat, but it's within the realm of possibility to have at least a modestly-trained and equipped force like that ready to reinforce a professional army or more elite force. Likewise, the speed with which not just some forces with particular qualities, but practically all of the types of forces Kislev fields are assembled, marching, and prepared for battle in a couple of days at most, all converging at the same place, seems a little fantastical to me.

Kislev gonna Kislev. Their whole thing is that everyone outside the cities has been in a constant state of total military readiness since shortly after the Khan-Queen crossed the mountains. Whether that's at all possible, logistically and sociologically and psychologically, and how many sacrifices that would require and how much damage that would do to your society, is the sort of debate that inevitably spirals down into 'how the fuck does anyone live on this planet, actually'. But as questionable as it is, that's who Kislev is.

If you put a gun to my head, something something ancient widow the land empowers the people who live upon it to defend it. There might also be something in lightning needing no wind-back time to strike, and the bear's claws always being ready to strike, and the sunlight always being everywhere it needs to be.

Mathilde rides to Kislev City and back multiple times to ferry reinforcements to the battlefield (one of which is an army of infantry on foot) in the span of less than two days--the only way this seems plausible is if Kislev City is just really close to the relevant part of Shirokij Forest.

It's forty miles away from where the forces were mustering. Kislev City has the bizarre property of always being further south than than you remember it being.
 
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If the Ship wins I'd be very excited to throw an AP at it and see some high level enchanting. Do some Web-Mat stuff, see how the colleges operate when they break the bank. If one college could have gotten us a Skyship, what happens when all eight put in maximum effort?

And then it'd just be something to have. I'm not super into the proposed aesthetics, I don't see very much cool factor or awesomeness in just 'having a skyship.' All my future hopes for Mathilde arcs lie within the Empire or close nearby, so I'd feel a bit of dread that I'd either have to fight the people who want to use the Skyship or let it go to waste. And I'm kind of cringing at the idea of Mathilde trying to assure people of her subtlety and intrigue abilities after rocking up in a flying multicolored one of a kind battleship. Sotto Voice indeed!

If the Armor wins- well first off I'd feel really bad for the people who held a lead for months on end. But if the Armor wins I'd be excited about the flex, the aesthetics, the uniqueness. Mathilde is a Wizard-Knight! She has indelible associations with the Key of Secrets, with Greatswords! It works within the framework of who Mathilde is, rather than adding in something new. She'd be dripped out in legendary relics from head to toe! We'd get to wear Jedi Robes over Plate Armor! We'd have the ability to wade into hordes of orcs without worry! We-Silk can't do anything close to that. Ilthimar can't do anything close to that. You know all those people who are constantly worried about needing more protection? It's a cool thing to have that's always useful, rather than something you have to find use for.

If Pickles shotgun wins, then honestly I'd be very surprised. But Jubilant! All the turn plans I've enjoyed to see for the future gain a mile of leeway. We no longer have to spend AP rustling up coin, or more likely going to Lothern with little money. We no longer have to worry about spending AP on our Gyrocarriage- to the contrary, they'd put the same effort into it as building a fully furnished tower! We don't have to worry about actions on our spy networks, or even more actions on our library… to be honest I don't see another way we get involved enough with the Amethysts to find out what the fuck was up with Hexenwhatsit this has been bothering me for literal YEARS-

The way the quest was before this last update, all my wild hopes and plans and what I found most cool about this quest? All of that would get a major boost, boons out the wazoo. I find it difficult to overstate how appealing that is to me. Every option is cool in its own right, but ultimately it's vestigial to what I love about this quest, which this plan focuses on! It's amazing!

As I said a few weeks or months ago, if Pickles plan gets close enough to overtake the Armor, I'd drop my vote on the Armor. And I think some people might join me. So even if it's just editing in an approval vote, consider this me shilling just one more time.
 
The reward can be anything we want. And I don't want an airship. As soon as last turn, Mathilde had options to go to Ulthuan and Nehekhara - functionally speaking, she doesn't need an airship to go to far away places and have adventures or conduct research there. I'd rather get something else that I think will be more fun and more useful.
This. The Airship doesn't actually help us get anywhere new. It doesn't open up the map. In many ways it's more limited given the diplomatic implications of a private individual flying a warship over another country, or the difficulties of landing an entire ship, etc.

It's big, it's flashy, and it sounds cool- but it's the sort of reward that demands narrative screentime for how supposedly awesome it is rather than something that's just organically useful. People will want their set piece of flying cannonades, or some special field base (rather than just using the gyrocopter to operate out of the nearest settlement), or the ship being tossed about in a storm... when none of those really need to happen. The only genuine capability it has is theoretically deploying an elite strikeforce... we just don't have.

It's the sort of object that looks grand, and impressive, but the narrative needs to justify it being there. Compare that to a suit of armor that immediately comes into relevancy the next time we cross swords.
 
This. The Airship doesn't actually help us get anywhere new. It doesn't open up the map. In many ways it's more limited given the diplomatic implications of a private individual flying a warship over another country, or the difficulties of landing an entire ship, etc.

It's big, it's flashy, and it sounds cool- but it's the sort of reward that demands narrative screentime for how supposedly awesome it is rather than something that's just organically useful. People will want their set piece of flying cannonades, or some special field base (rather than just using the gyrocopter to operate out of the nearest settlement), or the ship being tossed about in a storm... when none of those really need to happen. The only genuine capability it has is theoretically deploying an elite strikeforce... we just don't have.

It's the sort of object that looks grand, and impressive, but the narrative needs to justify it being there. Compare that to a suit of armor that immediately comes into relevancy the next time we cross swords.

The Armor also requires narrative screentime to be relevant. If we do not get into dangerous fights, the kind of fights that might have been lethal without it the armor is pointless. If we get into those fights, but roll well enough not to need it anyway it's useful as a safety line but doesn't show up in the narrative.
 
  • I don't want a historical masterpiece made by the greatest enchanter in College history, I want a modern-day masterpiece made by the best current minds in the Colleges. I want a reward that actually has all the Colleges work together to create something that none of them could do entirely on their own, or at least not to the amazing extent that we know they can if they put their greatest minds together.
  • I don't want to imagine the other seven Colleges presenting the Brights with enough compensation that they'll let go of one of their best things ever, I want to make something that ideally future generations will speak of in the same breath as the Armor.
  • Part of me is still hoping that the Armor gets lent out to Mandred more extensively in the future, as he is more likely to be in the battlefield for longer periods of time and unlike us doesn't have Grey magic to let him avoid harm by being hard to find or see.
  • Airships are so cool, you guys.
Its interesting that we agree completely on the first point and it is exactly why I am voting against the airship.
Because its not an argument for why buying an airship would be great, its an argument for why the process of making the airship would be great.

If the colleges are making a modern-day masterpiece, I want to be part of that process, I don't just want it to happen off screen.
 
As I said a few weeks or months ago, if Pickles plan gets close enough to overtake the Armor, I'd drop my vote on the Armor. And I think some people might join me. So even if it's just editing in an approval vote, consider this me shilling just one more time.
...in case in fact there are a bunch of ship partisans who feel this way, I'm going to try something.

[x] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[] Armor of von Tarnus
[] Priority requisition access to Armor of von Tarnus
[x] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[x] Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions
[x] Support in dispatching Battle Wizards to one major conflict of Mathilde's choice
[X] Outsourcing Apparition hunting and storage to provide us with captured Apparitions for spell creation on request
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Plan: Mammoth Battle Altar Cavalry/Mammothry
[X] Cooperate with the dwarves on creating the plans for a flying ship type that can, in theory, be regularly produced - plus dibs on a prototype of a larger ship when such is built
 
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If the colleges are making a modern-day masterpiece, I want to be part of that process, I don't just want it to happen off screen.
Boney's confirmed that we can be a part of the process if we want to spend the AP for it.
@Boney

Would there be any possibility of Mathilde getting to actually spend some actions getting herself and/or WEBMAT involved in the creation of the airship, if we pick it as our boon? Actually getting to get our fingers dirty with the metaphorical steaming guts of reality being sliced open is a fair chunk of the appeal of WizardQuest, to me.

I like that idea. Yes.
 
The Armor also requires narrative screentime to be relevant. If we do not get into dangerous fights, the kind of fights that might have been lethal without it the armor is pointless. If we get into those fights, but roll well enough not to need it anyway it's useful as a safety line but doesn't show up in the narrative.
See, that's kinda reductive to the point of treating this as *just* a wargame or mechanical simulation as opposed to a story. Armor lets a fighter take more risks and engage with the opponent and their weapon in ways they couldn't without it. Moreover, we know Mathilde is liable to run into a serious opponent sooner than later, and it's explicitly in character for Mathilde to prepare for those sort of fights. It has been since she's wanted to get strong after running into a zombie, since she got training from the Greatswords, since the exploration of why Gazul wields a greatsword, and since she's got Branalhune- and a notable part of the motivation to go on the elfcation.

Whether it's deflecting a lethal blow, or Mathilde practicing to fight in platemail, or Mathilde altering her style given she can be more aggressive and proactive in a melee because her defenses are so much stronger- the armor will make itself felt then and there. It's not just a stack stick, it's an expansion and new chapter for the martial emphasis Mathilde has had since the absolute beginning of the quest. This is a story, there is a lot of story telling potential in a suit of armor way beyond 'you didn't die when you otherwise would have'.
 
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117 to 111 for Airship and Armor votes. And I saw Armor as few as four votes behind earlier. I don't think I've ever seen the vote be so close before.

Adhoc vote count started by Derpmind on Mar 26, 2025 at 4:46 PM, finished with 4388 posts and 316 votes.
 
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This. The Airship doesn't actually help us get anywhere new. It doesn't open up the map. In many ways it's more limited given the diplomatic implications of a private individual flying a warship over another country, or the difficulties of landing an entire ship, etc.

It's big, it's flashy, and it sounds cool- but it's the sort of reward that demands narrative screentime for how supposedly awesome it is rather than something that's just organically useful. People will want their set piece of flying cannonades, or some special field base (rather than just using the gyrocopter to operate out of the nearest settlement), or the ship being tossed about in a storm... when none of those really need to happen. The only genuine capability it has is theoretically deploying an elite strikeforce... we just don't have.
This is why I don't like the air ship, or wizard tower, or whatever other boondoggle chat gets excited over because it's massive and looks cool; those types of megaprojects always have infrastructural/deployment costs associated with their creation and usage beyond 'Some dude made it 5,000 years ago and we haven't been able to reproduce it until now', because otherwise people would have done their damndest to make a replacement, even if that replacement was worse in every way, and use that instead. Because they have.

After all, what is an airship or a flying wizard tower, if not a larger, slower gyrobomber? And so, building either adds no unique capabilities to our toolset and takes up a large amount of narrative space compared to 'really, really good magical armor' or 'swimming pools of money'.
 
See, that's kinda reductive to the point of treating this as *just* a wargame or mechanical simulation as opposed to a story. Armor lets a fighter take more risks and engage with the opponent and their weapon in ways they couldn't without it. Moreover, we know Mathilde is liable to run into a serious opponent sooner than later, and it's explicitly in character for Mathilde to prepare for those sort of fights. It has been since she's wanted to get strong after running into a zombie, since she got training from the Greatswords, since the exploration of why Gazul wields a greatsword, and since she's got Branalhune- and a notable part of the motivation to go on the elfcation.

Whether it's deflecting a lethal blow, or Mathilde practicing to fight in platemail, or Mathilde altering her style given she can be more aggressive and proactive in a melee because her defenses are so much stronger- the armor will make itself felt then and there. It's not just a stack stick, it's an expansion and new chapter for the martial emphasis Mathilde has had since the absolute beginning of the quest. This is a story, there is a lot of story telling potential in a suit of armor way beyond 'you didn't die when you otherwise would have'.

See you've just described a lot of things that can happen in combat, probably not the same combat encounter even if they do happen, the thing is we do not get into combat that often. It's a relatively small part of this quest by actions spent and vastly more so by words written. This doesn't feel like the kind of thing I want to sink the goodwill from Mathilde's Magnum Opus into.

An airship by contrast can be used in all sorts of actions, from research to diplomacy to yes also combat if in another way.
 
An airship by contrast can be used in all sorts of actions, from research to diplomacy to yes also combat if in another way.
...Except that it wouldn't, because it's massive, slow, and we already have a gyrobomber that does everything an airship can except force projection, which we don't need because we have the Empire and the Dwarfs to do that for us.

Mathilde doesn't need a strategic force projection asset, because we have access to dozens of them if we call in favors- from Steam Tanks to Gyrobombers, Knightly Orders to Ironclads- if we want a military expedition on call, we can get one.

The airship is a logistical tax and opportunity cost relative to its benefit- sure it'll be useful if and when we plan a military campaign around it, but you can't bring an airship to an assassination, and that's Mathilde's most powerful contribution to any campaign she's a part of.

An airship can't assassinate Drycha, an airship can't kill 6 Warbosses in K8P, an airship can't eradicate a Black College or go on an Elf-cation to Nagarythe- but Mathilde can, and in all those situations a better suit of armor on-hand is a lot more powerful than a thousand airships located over the horizon.
 
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This is why I don't like the air ship, or wizard tower, or whatever other boondoggle chat gets excited over because it's massive and looks cool; those types of megaprojects always have infrastructural/deployment costs associated with their creation and usage beyond 'Some dude made it 5,000 years ago and we haven't been able to reproduce it until now', because otherwise people would have done their damndest to make a replacement, even if that replacement was worse in every way, and use that instead. Because they have.

After all, what is an airship or a flying wizard tower, if not a larger, slower gyrobomber?
And so, building either adds no unique capabilities to our toolset and takes up a large amount of narrative space compared to 'really, really good magical armor' or 'swimming pools of money'.

This has been talked to death already, but here goes again: 'No it's not because dwarf engineers and their spare parts do not exist outside the Old World'.

As for your first point which people are you imagining building airships? The Colleges? They have existed for 180 years, counting the time they were briefly illegal and under siege. The Elves? Yes, they have in fact been building sky-cutters all this time

...Except that it wouldn't, because it's massive, slow, and we already have a gyrobomber that does everything an airship can except force projection, which we don't need because we have the Empire and the Dwarfs to do that for us.

No, see above.
 
See you've just described a lot of things that can happen in combat, probably not the same combat encounter even if they do happen, the thing is we do not get into combat that often. It's a relatively small part of this quest by actions spent and vastly more so by words written. This doesn't feel like the kind of thing I want to sink the goodwill from Mathilde's Magnum Opus into.

An airship by contrast can be used in all sorts of actions, from research to diplomacy to yes also combat if in another way.
So I give examples indicating that in any scenario where Mathilde is contemplating melee combat, the armor is relevant to her planning- and that naturally indicates it won't come up very often? Only an absolute idiot wouldn't factor in their armor in any fight, regardless of whether it gets hit or not. Whereas it's obvious the ship is a huge game changer for research and diplomacy... because it can what- bring experts and diplomats to where they need to go like our Gyrocarriage? Because it has profound diplomatic impact? That a gyrocarriage that last I checked we were planning on cramming enchantments and runes onto wouldn't?

I don't at all accept axiomatically that the ship will come up all the time for research and diplomacy- hell, I think it's downgrade over the gyrocarriage. It's slower, more visible, and it's not a fascinating fusion of Dwarf and Imperial methods that signals Mathilde is someone walking in two very different cultural worlds. It doesn't have a side character who committed to learning how to fly it just so she could help us on our adventures. You want to show up anywhere we need to with an elite strike team at our backs? We already did that and can do that when the situation requires- we did it to flex on Roswita.

If the Armor of Von Tarnus doesn't exist in a vacuum because 'we already have AA'- the ship certainly shouldn't be treated in a vacuum either given the gyrocarriage.
 
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