chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
A dual Leyline/Riverine transmission option is certainly a mark in the "Deals well with the unforeseen, or with deliberate sabotage" category, I think.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Yes, it would certainly be something if he came here expecting some quick and dirty hack, and 'Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)' wins, which in lots of ways seems to be an upgraded Golden Age Waystone, so would indeed be a masterpiece fit of Saphery's libraries.
It seems to be equal to the Golden Age Waystone in every way we can measure but with an extra feature.
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Amazing. Not once in the last few pages have you actually addressed what I was saying. Not once have I said that cost is of no object for Kislev and Stirland. Each time I have posted, I have mentioned that I believe that Kislev and Stirland are poor. Each time I have said that I objected to them being framed as outright impoverished. Are you going to drop this, or will you keep repeating something I already know and already said at me for the next few pages?
If they can make the Golden Age Waystones today then it shouldn't be difficult to reverse-engineer the storage enchantment. Boney has said that the difficulty of it will go down as we make more of them. Eltharion seemed to have implied that waystone-gold was one of the main hurtles in making them, if anything. Caledor doesn't like making it at all.
Besides, the current waystones have Runed components. I think that would be rather difficult to deploy in Ulthuan. We would need to design a different waystone to be deployed in Ulthuan.
Codex
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The High Elves made a new Waystone to replace one in Marienburg after the War, but I think it requires a pre-existing base to work off of, so it's probably limited. There's a reason Eltharion is so interested in what we have to offer.
You said this:
I am disputing that we know they can in fact simply afford the cost irrespective of what the cost could be, so we should consider it as an important factor. The whole thrust of your post is that cost isn't a major consideration because they aren't that poor.
And I had gone on to make general comments that it was challenging to know what poor means relative to the cost of the Waystones, whether they were likely to be something that they could easily afford or not at various price points.
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That was apparently an actual nexus which is probably why they needed an old one monolith for that.
pucflek
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I think the words said that they brought one from Ulthuan? Like, there is bunch of preexisting stones in storage presumably, but that stock is limited and shrinking every time they have to fix something.
Again, that was a nexus and needed a old one monolith for it's replacement. Whole different ballgame.
Even boney told us that we really shouldn't expect to be able to tackle nexuses.
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I strongly disagree. The fact that Eltharion was prepared to negotiate with the Karaz Ankor implies that Ulthuan is willing to deal with them. The price the Karaz Ankor charges the elves for Runed storage waystones might be dear ("asshole tax" is a beloved technique known to all business owners), but the elves can afford it. And if the Karaz Ankor is totally unwilling to sell to the Asur, we'll build a new Waystone model specifically optimized for deployment in Ulthuan. Just because Eltharion is here doesn't mean he's our top priority; Kislev and Sylvania still are, IMO.
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
Eltharion will be happy if he gets a payoff in 10 years, or hell, even a favourable progress report... Elf's think just on different timelines...
Tasoli
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That guy is right because if Kislev can't afford our waystones Empire can't either, infact nobody can. So your point becomes meaningless hair splitting.
Our waystones are unlikely to cost that much on the scale of countries. I think one of the most expensive options is river spirit method which we are hopefully are not going to use. Absent of that it is high mages and runesmiths and wizards getting paid which should be a more reasonable amount.
Yes, I said should be able to afford the costs. It is exceedingly unreasonable to read a comment that says "Kislev is poor" and interpret a statement saying that Kislev can afford the costs as saying that cost is of no concern to it.
How many pages am I going to have to repeat myself? I swear if you think you feel the need to ignore what I have been saying for the past two pages I'll just quote my initial explanation and keep on doing that until you drop this shit.
It's feasible for Ulthuan to buy the Dwarf clockwork. Ulthuan has a long history of buying Dwarf clockwork from Tilea, who buys it from the Karaz Ankor. That comes from the Engineering Guild. However, the Engineering Guild is one of the more radical sections of Dawi society.
The Karaz Ankor does not trade with Ulthuan. The Runesmiths are some of the most conservative fuckers on the planet. You can almost certainly get them to make runes for Bretonnia and Kislev, but Ulthuan? There is only so far that Thorgrim can push, or would even want to push. Getting the Runesmith's Guild to provide runic components for waystones in Ulthuan? Lmao good luck.
The implication of the Rune component is that it has to be done on sight too. I wish you even better luck getting a Runesmith to travel to Ulthuan. While you're at it, might as well buy a lottery ticket too.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
The River Spirit method actually lowers the difficulty and cost of the foundation component. It'll be weirder than we're expecting, but it's also the option where bargaining is possible, so if it's unreasonable then it simply won't be used.
If the cost is irrelevant, it doesn't seem likely that Boney would put it as one of the factors on each component choice. It could be the case, but it doesn't feel likely.
Looking at the options, it doesn't seem that the cost of the various people's time is a serious part of the cost. For example the reverse engineered storage that is a very difficult job for an archmage is low cost, but expensive runic storage which any runesmith can apparently make has a high cost.
The issue is whether cost is a significant constraint on Kislev deploying more expensive Waystones because they have other valuable things in competition for that money. It can be a much greater constraint on Kislev than the Empire, and so cheaper Waystones could be much more attractive to them than expensive ones.
Yeah, the concession to a river god or spirit could well be non-monetary or mainly symbolic, so the river spirit component could even have negative cost in some cases.
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I like the building a better future plan, because it is both the stretch goal that I really really want to see, and it is only trying to do one "very difficult" thing.
I also like the Simple and Functional, because of being a good more-likely to succeed option.
[x] Plan Building A Better Future
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
[x] Plan Simple and Functional
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower (simple)
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven (simple)
- [x] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed (simple)
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord (moderately difficult)
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline (simple)
I also like the Simple and Functional, because of being a good more-likely to succeed option.
[x] Plan Building A Better Future
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
[x] Plan Simple and Functional
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower (simple)
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven (simple)
- [x] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed (simple)
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord (moderately difficult)
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline (simple)
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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Re: Eltharion, I agree with the notion that he just wants more options than he currently has.
...Maybe if we no-life'd it and dedicated full turns to it, we could call it done-ish at a certain point, but that sounds like a great way to burn out. No, we're going to have to deal with the reality that we've thus far done two/three waystone actions per turn, and that it's gonna be a hard ask to do four or more such actions per turn, when there's so much to do that we may as well take it slowly and steady.
Personally I give the project somewhere around ten more turns: Enough time to investigate how to bypass certain problems (how to connect Caledor leylines to the KA network or the Widow network), make an X amount of more prototypes (I do not see ourselves being satisfied with just the one, regardless of how cheap or simple it is), have at least one dedicated Father turn with Bretonnia and the Forest of Shadows (I'm convinced by mathymancer's theory at this point), get in one or two mapping actions with Johann or Max on turns where we have WEB-MAT, maybe poke at Athel Loren and Nehekhara, try to reclaim a nexus or two, and still have enough time to spread tributaries across the provinces, Laurelorn, Kislev, Bretonnia, and maybe the Karaz Ankor. Maybe make one or two more tributaries if we feel confident they could benefit the Karaz Ankor appropriately, or cover more situations.
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On an unrelated note, with all this talk of how elves think on long timescales, now I want to do an omake of the Project from Queen Marrisith's point of view.
I wonder whether the dwarven tendency to price something at exactly what they think is fair would prevent that or not...
This may be the sort of project where it feels like past a certain point, we can end it when we feel like we've done enough (the goal is sharing knowledge and getting more coverage than there previously was, not perfect coverage for every single nation all at once), but I feel like four turns is too little. You need to take into account potential delays and new actions popping up every so often.
...Maybe if we no-life'd it and dedicated full turns to it, we could call it done-ish at a certain point, but that sounds like a great way to burn out. No, we're going to have to deal with the reality that we've thus far done two/three waystone actions per turn, and that it's gonna be a hard ask to do four or more such actions per turn, when there's so much to do that we may as well take it slowly and steady.
Personally I give the project somewhere around ten more turns: Enough time to investigate how to bypass certain problems (how to connect Caledor leylines to the KA network or the Widow network), make an X amount of more prototypes (I do not see ourselves being satisfied with just the one, regardless of how cheap or simple it is), have at least one dedicated Father turn with Bretonnia and the Forest of Shadows (I'm convinced by mathymancer's theory at this point), get in one or two mapping actions with Johann or Max on turns where we have WEB-MAT, maybe poke at Athel Loren and Nehekhara, try to reclaim a nexus or two, and still have enough time to spread tributaries across the provinces, Laurelorn, Kislev, Bretonnia, and maybe the Karaz Ankor. Maybe make one or two more tributaries if we feel confident they could benefit the Karaz Ankor appropriately, or cover more situations.
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On an unrelated note, with all this talk of how elves think on long timescales, now I want to do an omake of the Project from Queen Marrisith's point of view.
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Tasoli
Life is for Living
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Cost will determine the numbers that would be rolled out per years so more expensive stones might get longer to plug the gaps. But saying Kislev can't afford stones is misleading take considering how commited Boris is. So It is not wether they can afford or not but a matter of how many per year leading to how long until it is done.
Depends. Kislev might also want reliable stones because nomad population might not be able to keep watch on something fragile.
More to point I am uncomfortable with runic cap in Kislev. Sounds like invitation to chaos bands to steal and use them for some bad shit.
It is not going to be just symbolic because our residend Hag Witch said it would cost a lot and she would know.
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
I really want to push back on Reverse-engineered storage, in particular "Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)". I think it's a very appealing-seeming trap that will result in a bare trickle of waystones for a long, long time, when we could be deploying them by the dozen and score within a few turns. But even worse, if you really want Reverse-engineered storage it should not be paired with the Stone Flower -- you're going to want every single archmage there is focusing on churning out the storage and trying to refine it into something regular enchanters can make.
For that reason, "Plan: Mass leyline" is a better choice than "Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)". I don't think it's a good idea, but that's the closest you can get to making reverse engineered viable.
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
I really want to push back on Reverse-engineered storage, in particular "Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)". I think it's a very appealing-seeming trap that will result in a bare trickle of waystones for a long, long time, when we could be deploying them by the dozen and score within a few turns. But even worse, if you really want Reverse-engineered storage it should not be paired with the Stone Flower -- you're going to want every single archmage there is focusing on churning out the storage and trying to refine it into something regular enchanters can make.
For that reason, "Plan: Mass leyline" is a better choice than "Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)". I don't think it's a good idea, but that's the closest you can get to making reverse engineered viable.
Haha, on the Eonir timescale maybe Mathilde would be just about starting to get some invitations to the parties where people can get in touch with each other for future deal making.
Kislev has other costs. With an expensive Waystone it may not be able to afford a Waystone rollout at a decent pace without very undesirable opportunity costs. That's what not being able to afford expensive Waystones means.
The runic inductor isn't any more expensive than the other options. A more expensive Waystone is not necessarily more reliable.
Note, Baba Yaga did not say dealing with a river spirit would cost a lot:
It would either be expensive or annoying for an individual, which means that it might not even cost them something monetary, but either way it would be easy for a country. So it could be something that either doesn't cost any money, and is just annoying for some poor government employees, or is relatively cheap on the scale of a nation, possibly costing less than the cost reduction of the foundation.
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Tasoli
Life is for Living
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I am uncomfortable with excess dhar it produces and its flaw of turning dhar bomb if damaged in a specific way which Chaos is one of the few facions that can figure it out. We might loose a few runesmiths to Slayerhood if any of their rune caps used in a Chaos Ritual or something like that.
Cost is not the problem.
You were replying to a section about costs and you were the one that brought up the runic inductor which wasn't previously part of the thread of discussion?
I was saying there was no cost based reason to use the runic inductor there because there isn't a cost impact here.
Your reply here seems like a complete non-sequitur unless I'm really missing something.
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Runic cap is bad for Kislev because it produces extra dhar when there are a ton of Winds, and that far north the winds blow far more strongly and thickly.