Enthusiast#117
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I would acknowledge even a one fifth efficiency mundane stone as having value in the scenario of mass mundane production; stones in high magic situations simply operate at their best capacity rather than being damaged, traditionally. One mundane stone might not be quite the bulwark of its elders, but with how cheap they are for not needing a wizard at all the Elector Counts can simply have them made in units of five without much extra expenditure.
But, actually I expect them to be pretty reliable. Like, way more than 'a mundane version of something a wizard can do' probably feels like it should be.
A carved glyph on the waystone cap is the only place where a purely mundane effort is the weakest option; Storage (Material) is an option that can go all the way to Expensive, so where people really want to fortify a place against Storms of Magic they can certainly do that without necessarily involving a wizard.
You can also just talk to spirits. They're right there. Them being available to talk to is sort of the trouble with them, when there's trouble, but in this case it is a bonus. I don't think you need to be a wizard to speak Magic Elf for the normal leylines, either, but even if that's so having a wizard or a priest come by and bless the efforts afterwards is the least onerous it can get -- any actual enchanting is miles more complex in comparison.
The biggest problem I see is the titan metal, that still needs to be sourced from the ogres and cathay, and that will be expensive as all heck. And we do not know how much of it is still available even. Maybe cathay has used it for something funky, or the ogres have made many shiny weapons, or hell Maybe the highelfs bought the bulk the first time around.
Until we can recreate it it's a gamble I feel.
Also, I don't think we know whether the titan-metal/gold alloy can be made using purely non-magical means. Although the end result is non-magical the process of getting there could require magic. For example, it could require mico-crystalline structures that would never form naturally but a wizard who knows what they're doing can interfere with the process of crystallisation to ensure they form.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Titan metal manufacturing is the big wall in the road, yeah.
It's worth doing, though, even if the process of getting that manufacturing knowledge takes a long time and a lot of work. Being able to put Waystones on an Elector Count's budget is just too big a win not to at least dream about.
Putting up ten of the Good Stones in Praag would make Boris a very happy guy.
That place has been cursed for over a century, so it'd be a major political coup for everyone to hear about, and it's in a controlled city in the grip of Kislev's power so it's safe for the sake of not having to worry about them being torn down.
It would also really legitimize his rule to the skeptics. He's only been Tzar for a little while, so an undeniable win would give him a great place to stand on.
I think that is the one where we should start. Mordheim is abandoned as is most of Mousillion. Sylvania has enough armed men around to deal with the low lever necromancy going around.
But normal people still live in praag.
If we can return it to a normal state that would a) be an enormous boost for Boris and b) show everyone else in the old world that the project has found an answer.
I want to remind everyone that Eltherion admitted that Ulthuan knows how to and can make Golden Age Waystones right now - it's just not worth the opportunity cost. He joined explicitly for the purpose of getting cheaper Waystones. The Reverse-Engineered Storage that people want would be a giant slap in the face for him, because it requires Archmages. Y'know, those guys in Saphery that haven't been able to fix Yvresse due to the cost even though it's right next to them that have the refined storage version already known. I don't think they're suddenly going to be more available for setting up Waystones across the Old World with a clunkier, more difficult version of what they can already do.
I will point out the the other plan has runed storage... And he's probably even less likely to get that then from saphery...
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Just because he said so doesn´t mean its true.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
It has been less than one year. Creation of any mundane cap would allow the creation of entirely mundane waystones. Skymetal is the best mundane capstone and therefore the ideal, but it's not a space we've explored sufficiently because 'any' waystone was our goal at the time.
If there's one thing Elves are good for (project management edition), it's understanding when a few more years is a reasonable amount of time to ask for.
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What reason has he to lie about it?
Completely random thought, but do Waystones inherently need to be static?
Not for now, but for a later development, but could we make a Waystone built in a boat?
I can see this being really useful for settlements in the Border Princes, or Kislev, or even Mordheim. It would probably require cutting a deal with a river spirit so you can dump the Dhar directly into the flowing water, but a Waystone boat has the advantage that if a band of nasties rolls into town the boat with the valuable Waystone in can simply sail away downriver.
This might be particularly useful for Ungol nomads, as those it means that for some of their seasonal migrations the Waystone-boat might be able to move with them.
Depending on how effective the Waystone is at sucking up Dhar, it might also allow you to stretch a certain number of Waystones more thinly, by having the boats go up and down river, sucking up Dhar from the land around the banks and sending it away. In places where building fixed infrastructure is hard or is vulnerable, if this is possible it could be a very valuable option.
In the Empire, if the local river spirits/gods could per persuaded, you might also be able to do things like surge a dozen Waystone boats up to Mordheim and its surroundings to accompany an army during campaigning season, before withdrawing with the army, gradually chipping away at the Dhar.
Not for now, but for a later development, but could we make a Waystone built in a boat?
I can see this being really useful for settlements in the Border Princes, or Kislev, or even Mordheim. It would probably require cutting a deal with a river spirit so you can dump the Dhar directly into the flowing water, but a Waystone boat has the advantage that if a band of nasties rolls into town the boat with the valuable Waystone in can simply sail away downriver.
This might be particularly useful for Ungol nomads, as those it means that for some of their seasonal migrations the Waystone-boat might be able to move with them.
Depending on how effective the Waystone is at sucking up Dhar, it might also allow you to stretch a certain number of Waystones more thinly, by having the boats go up and down river, sucking up Dhar from the land around the banks and sending it away. In places where building fixed infrastructure is hard or is vulnerable, if this is possible it could be a very valuable option.
In the Empire, if the local river spirits/gods could per persuaded, you might also be able to do things like surge a dozen Waystone boats up to Mordheim and its surroundings to accompany an army during campaigning season, before withdrawing with the army, gradually chipping away at the Dhar.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
You think someone would do that? Just lie or embelish truths greatly to people for the purpose of making waystones? Perish the thought, such a thing surely could not possibly happen.
EDIT:
I also wonder where have we heard of someone saying that something is possible but is getting stonewalled for reasons, so please translate these for me Qresh.
Anyway, there are many reasons, chief of them pride, but also not wanting to look incompetent or divulge important strategic secrets. Or just looking important enough to warrant greater consideration. I am not saying he is lying, necessarily, i am just saying that its possible.
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The ones connected to leylines I think yes, the ones only for rivers? Maybe? The hedgewise and jade methods wouldn't work but maybe a river spirit could be more flexible
On the other hand, the runesmiths may refuse to allow the sale of any Waystone containing a dwarven rune to Ulthuan. Even a runesmith carved Elvish rune could be really pushing it, but an actual sacred mystery of Thungni being sold to the Asur?
Of course, Thorek hasn't brought this up as an issue so it may not be one.
Yeah, agreed, I mentioned a bit further down that it may require making a deal with a river spirit, and you're right it would probably prevent a leyline connection. Means it probably wouldn't need storage either.
Could still be very desirable for Boris though. A quick and dirty version could look like this:
Capstone: Stone Flower
Rune: Wizard
Storage: None
Foundation: Clockwork
Transmission (Riverine): Spirit
Designed to be ask quick and cheap for Boris to make and replace as possible, and reduce dependence on others as much as possible - this just needs dwarf made runic inductors. The Runic Inductor is a problem, but there's a fair amount of Dhar floating around up there anyway. The Clockwork mechanism is manageable because the Waystone would be on a ship where it would be protected from the elements and it can sail down river to have the clockwork repaired. Spirit transmission because it may well be needed.
If the Foundation was switched to Collegiate it would be of negligible cost, but that would increase dependence on others.
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How would lying about Ulthuan being able to make waystones in any way make other people make waystones? I don't see where that nets any benefit for Eltherion. We were making waystones either way.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
How would lying to Laurelorn Elves about being able to activate waystones make other people make waystones?
I think its pretty clear that he may be lying for the exact same reason Mathilde did. To increase the value of his bargaining chips in eye of the thread/Mathilde, letting him get more concessions for less price etc.
Its all very nice, making waystones, but he can´t see inside our head. Possibly admitting to Mathilde that her project may have world monopoly on creating waystones would let her increase the price for letting him in, because noone else could provide that service.
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Voting for the Kislev options and approval voting reverse engineering because if we go all in we can as well go really all in.
[x] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
[x] Plan: The FEMA Model
[x] Plan The Hinterlander
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [Rune] Carved
- [x] [STORAGE] None
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
[x] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
[x] Plan: The FEMA Model
[x] Plan The Hinterlander
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [Rune] Carved
- [x] [STORAGE] None
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I'd like to shill
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
A little harder.
From a political angle, It incorporates talents from most project members, and I think it also pairs well with the explicit intent of taking this option more times: It doesn't stand as a "one size fits all" solution its own, but it also isn't meant to.
More than that, I think it's something that every polity involved in the project can make use of: it's something that will be placed on the Black Water, Mordheim and the rivers of Sylvania, Praag, and a dozen other places. More than that, there's also the implicit promise that it can be either left in place, or possibly even eventually dug back up to install somewhere else once a permanent solution installed in its stead. It's something that would, quite literally, have it's place in a military arsenal as Eltharion desired.
Lastly, from I think there's a case to be made for a model that isn't all that ambitious. It's at once something that will have a dedicated place in the long term, and also a good tool for learning how to fit things together.
That said I also think I should add a second version for the collegiate addition. Both for the generally lower difficulty of the involved rolls and because I feel like there's a chance the Light Wizard designed foundation, given their notable connections to Nehekara and it's old network miiiight play well with a riparian waystone.
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model (Collegiate Foundation Edition)
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] None
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
And I'll also add in
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
Just to keep the vote for it in play.
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
A little harder.
From a political angle, It incorporates talents from most project members, and I think it also pairs well with the explicit intent of taking this option more times: It doesn't stand as a "one size fits all" solution its own, but it also isn't meant to.
More than that, I think it's something that every polity involved in the project can make use of: it's something that will be placed on the Black Water, Mordheim and the rivers of Sylvania, Praag, and a dozen other places. More than that, there's also the implicit promise that it can be either left in place, or possibly even eventually dug back up to install somewhere else once a permanent solution installed in its stead. It's something that would, quite literally, have it's place in a military arsenal as Eltharion desired.
Lastly, from I think there's a case to be made for a model that isn't all that ambitious. It's at once something that will have a dedicated place in the long term, and also a good tool for learning how to fit things together.
That said I also think I should add a second version for the collegiate addition. Both for the generally lower difficulty of the involved rolls and because I feel like there's a chance the Light Wizard designed foundation, given their notable connections to Nehekara and it's old network miiiight play well with a riparian waystone.
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model (Collegiate Foundation Edition)
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] None
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
And I'll also add in
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
Just to keep the vote for it in play.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Ultimately Eltharion is an emissary of foreign power with goals to pursue and further. I am not saying "this dude cannot be trusted, horrible liar", i am saying that he has an agenda thats different from our own.
He is ultimately here to help Ulthuan in general and Yvresse in particular for the least amount of cost to either. Thats not an evil thing to do, it doesn´t make him our enemy but it does mean that he will prioritize his goals over our goals, and justifiably so. A little bit of embellishing is in like with that and completely normal in any sort of negotation, whetever its between nations or companies or whatever.
He is ultimately here to help Ulthuan in general and Yvresse in particular for the least amount of cost to either. Thats not an evil thing to do, it doesn´t make him our enemy but it does mean that he will prioritize his goals over our goals, and justifiably so. A little bit of embellishing is in like with that and completely normal in any sort of negotation, whetever its between nations or companies or whatever.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
If we make more, this keeps Empire Wizards in the loop.
If we make more, this keeps Empire Wizards in the loop.
What he said was:
That's quite different to saying Saphery can make them. After all, some time is quicker and easier than never.