Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The Court Beneath, published in Hammer & Bolter magazine.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Mostly, I just think the EIC isn't a very good tool for our current storyline. If we had chosen to be the Margravine of Eastern Stirland, or stayed in Karak Eight Peaks as a Loremaster-at-Large, or even Mandred's tutor, we'd have lots of opportunity to use it for intel. But, like, look at this:
Those places are just nowhere near the places we care about (the one closest to being relevant is southern Middenland and Middenheim, which is a recent development over the last few years), so the EIC's usefulness for intel isn't high, so we end up using it for other things (like the magical bridge, which to be clear is awesome). This is why, as I've mentioned a few times, my goal is to get the library into a place where we feel comfortable handing off its day-to-day operations to someone else, then give up our two half-actions and go back to 6 personal AP. Organizations are really useful if and only if the two organizational actions are regularly "better" than the single personal AP would be, and once we run out of low-hanging fruit for KAU, I just don't think that'll be true anymore.
Yes, but those were explicitly tagged as "rumor mill" actions. We took those, and that stuff comes up, but it represents a burden on Boney because it means that additional stuff needs to have background development done in "real time," instead of finding out what's up with them when we spend AP to go and look.
which is why we now have actual agents being recruited and trained, because those can be much easier inserted everywhere then just merchants.
like i get your thinking process. it just doesn't hold up with what we changed about the organisation.
the biggest problem we have with the EIC actions is that people haven't used them for actual spying in ages for some reason. And then complain about not getting good intel
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
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- He/Him/His
I get that we are no longer dealing with just merchants, but rather with people who can be recruited to serve as agents. However, the impression that I, and I think the rest of the thread as well, has been under for quite some time is that even though we took the action to have Real Spies a billion years ago (T29, long before we took the actions to insert agents on T34 and T36), our ability to get intel is still predicated on where the EIC is. The action where we took the ability to have Real Spies had this description:
The implication is that the agents are still beholden to the support structure of the EIC. So while we can insert spies in places like Nordland (and have strongly considered it), we definitionally cannot recruit locals (because we have no local contacts), which means our agents face an uphill battle.
If our need for intel is high enough, then yeah, we can bite the bullet and deal with whatever hidden penalties there are to being away from our support network. But human (or humanoid) intelligence is always localized, especially in this era where casual travel just isn't a thing, and that means that I think the penalties to doing spy shit away from where the EIC has reach are going to be significant.
I do not think we will ever be at the point of not having use for the library. We are always going to be looking into obscure topics and we are always going to be short of cash or access to obscure tomes in it, that is pretty much the lot of being a wizard.
Looking at that quote, my way of interpreting this bit 'though on paper they'll retain their current title and they'll still manage enough regular work to keep up appearances'. Is that our agents can actually only be n places where they'd be doing regular work for the EIC. If we send agents into Nordland, those agents have to be doing the actual job of an EIC merchants at least part time so they can pretend to be one the rest of the time. That's much harder if there are no full time merchants in Norldand whose work they can leverage, as they would stand out if they're not part of an organisation that appears to be profit focused (and profitable over the medium term).
Yeah, but eventually we'll reach a point where it's more useful to let the library do its own thing and expand on its own than direct it personally.
Er... I can't really see it, given how many sources of books there are out there. Useful to us is very obscure stuff that no other librarian would think to grab, certainly not in good time.
I mean, we'll find useful stuff amongst all the copied libraries anyways. But really, I guess 'useful to us' has stopped being my main metric now that the library already has a ton of stuff that's useful to us? I'd really like for it to expand in a way that encourages more people to visit and use it.
The library will be useful to people far beyond Mathilde's lifespan. I see no reason to reduce the use she can get out of the institution during her lifetime. It is not like the stuff she does is trivial or only for some kind of personal gain. If we want books on the Old Ones say it is because we are looking for clues to save the world. Also just as a reader being able to direct purchases means more cool segments and like the reveal of the elementalist mystery. I do not want to give that up in the name of... library purity or something. People are using it and will use it, quantifying that precisely is beyond the scope of the quest.
This shows a shocking lack of belief in our immortality plans
I mean, it's also largely that there's a million personal actions I'd rather use that ap on instead of incremental mechanical bonuses from buying more books? AP hell is real.
Mathilde's current role within the library artificially constrains its growth. A dedicated person in charge of the organization would be able to spend multiple AP on it per turn. Mathilde routinely only spends a half AP on it. For the next several turns, she'll probably just be telling scribes which library to copy from next. As doing so directly improves the library, and makes it easier to make new agreements in the future.
Whereas the fun bit, and with her reputation is probably easier than whoever else we'd hire to taker her place, is sourcing access to new and exotic information.
Whereas the fun bit, and with her reputation is probably easier than whoever else we'd hire to taker her place, is sourcing access to new and exotic information.
This shows a shocking lack of belief in our immortality plans
I mean, it's also largely that there's a million personal actions I'd rather use that ap on instead of incremental mechanical bonuses from buying more books? AP hell is real.
But books are not just mechanical bonuses, sometimes it is getting answers about things we would not even think to look. We would have never gotten to the bottom of the elementalists with normal AP because it was utterly irrelevant to our projects.
It is literally our reward that we bought with a transcendent favor. I would rather get fun interactions out of it than feel virtuous over 'not constraining its growth' to fall into a black hole in the narrative. I want to find out how the We do as librarians, what the culture of the scribes will look like etc... all cool things that were we not librarian would be relegated to the bloodbowl arena that is social votes. Choose Five at best and most of the time more like Choose Three since important and time sensitive things are also happening
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- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There are libraries that would be more favorable to Head Librarian Mathilde than some other person.
The Karag Vlag archives (with the potential Fire Spire Books) and The Library of Mournings are 2 examples I can think of rn.
The Karag Vlag archives (with the potential Fire Spire Books) and The Library of Mournings are 2 examples I can think of rn.
So after some digging I've come to realize I remembered something wrong. I thought our giving the hochlander the sunken palace as his headquarters would let him recruit actual agents. Now after rereading the passage I don't quite know where I got that strong belief from.
I am still very much in favour of actually using our spy network to insert spies instead of saying "oh it's such a bad spy network just let it be." As some have proposed.
Otherwise we will have no way of actually getting info except by spending our own AP and that is hard enough to wrangle normally.
(Remember how long it took to find out the nature of the conflict between middenland and Nordland?)
I am still very much in favour of actually using our spy network to insert spies instead of saying "oh it's such a bad spy network just let it be." As some have proposed.
Otherwise we will have no way of actually getting info except by spending our own AP and that is hard enough to wrangle normally.
(Remember how long it took to find out the nature of the conflict between middenland and Nordland?)
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Personally, I saw KAU as a plot-hook generator. That function has been a bit sidelined by the Nuln boon proving so overwhelmingly powerful in getting multiple libraries on board at once, and possibly derailed entirely. I'd expected the pattern to be "Approach a library or collector about books => Receive and complete sidequest => More books in the library yay".
But with the copying of everything in Nuln, KAU is immediately a giant among libraries. It's now one of the largest collections in the Old World, or will be once we add Aquila and Minors to the Elementalists, University and our own material, with more added every purchase turn. Going forward expansion is, I'd expect, going to be a lot more "Approach a library or collector about books => 'Okay, so long as we get your stuff too' => More books in the library."
Maybe I'm wrong and librarians are still going to be ornery and demand additional compensation beyond a free doubling of their catalogue. There are definitely some specialist collections that won't care about our generalist material, like the Witch Hunter's library in the Grand Temple. Or maybe adventure plothooks will now be the realm of unique individual tomes like our copy of The Crawling Flesh. I guess we'll see - Nuln copying was literally just started.
But with the copying of everything in Nuln, KAU is immediately a giant among libraries. It's now one of the largest collections in the Old World, or will be once we add Aquila and Minors to the Elementalists, University and our own material, with more added every purchase turn. Going forward expansion is, I'd expect, going to be a lot more "Approach a library or collector about books => 'Okay, so long as we get your stuff too' => More books in the library."
Maybe I'm wrong and librarians are still going to be ornery and demand additional compensation beyond a free doubling of their catalogue. There are definitely some specialist collections that won't care about our generalist material, like the Witch Hunter's library in the Grand Temple. Or maybe adventure plothooks will now be the realm of unique individual tomes like our copy of The Crawling Flesh. I guess we'll see - Nuln copying was literally just started.
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My argument isn't so much that Mathilde should remove KAU from the list of organizations under her control. So much as that it might make sense to reduce her responsibilities within it.
E.g. have someone else in charge of the scribes and determine where they should copy books from next, but still keep her in charge of purchasing/creating new agreements/adventuring/expanding the library's remit, etc. So, we keep the half AP invested in it invested, but constrain the organization less.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
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- He/Him/His
Here's what we were told by Boney:
Presumably the Catcave manifests as background bonuses, but since we don't get to see the Hochlander's rolls, we don't get to see how it works. C'est la quest.
(I still really want to use an Eike Study action for him to give her a training montage at some point. I know it feels like we've had Eike forever, but it's only been three turns and her Eike Study actions have been studying Petty Spells twice and Enchanting class once.)
So that's where I got the believe about the training! Thanks actually!
But yeah I am fully for actually having some agents inserted in both middenheim and saltzemünde to keep eyes on those two... And probably in Altdorf for good measure.
As for eike, I am wholly for getting her ANY KIND OF SNEAKY TRAINING! ANY!
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
I'm wary of suggesting things that are trying to 'game the system', but this might be cool narratively:
Boney, If we spend an EIC action on something like contributing to the fog path enchantment, would the Hochlander be available to teach Eike intrigue stuff?
[I'm 100% on board with paying usual college fees for such lessons under the guise of 'supplies' or whatever sounds the slightest bit plausible to keep things mechanically equivalent with a regular 'Pay for Eike to learn more Intrigue from the College']
Personally if we want sneaky stuff I could totally see establishing an agent in middenheim and having eike tag along. Though it might not be extra super newly stuff but it would definitely include the basics.
Sending Eike to anonymously work at the EIC as a junior employee would be good for her in her role as it's major heiress anyway. Put her through whatever programme they have for young agents as presumably one of their sources of agents is juniors who want some extra money/influence.
Making contacts with other young up and coming EIC merchants would be useful for her as well.
Making contacts with other young up and coming EIC merchants would be useful for her as well.
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I sure hope that having the Hochlander train Eike in intrigue isn't considering gaming the system - it was my proposed Eike study action last turn! The 'Eike Study' action does explicitly allow for tutoring from employees so I think it's almost certainly fine:
Salzenmund is problematic because, as mentioned, there's zero EIC presence in Nordland. There are at least some EIC employees in Altdorf and Middenheim, so there's at least that.
Personally I would hold off on inserting agents in Middenheim until the fog path is completed. Partly because our next EIC action should probably be used on helping make the fog path, but also because I expect the EIC's presence in Middenheim to increase by quite a bit as soon as a major trade route from it to Tor Lithanel is established, and then we'll probably be in a better position to establish our intelligene network there.
Maybe have Eike and the Hochlander infiltrate Marienburg? Seeing as we hate them so much, it might be good to get some ears to the ground over there.