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So... yes, but doesn't answer the question.

Liminal membrane being an ulgu thing as opposed to a thing all winds can do is sort of assumed in that explanation- which I don't think we've got any evidence for? And if liminal membrane isn't just ulgu, then there real is no 'ulgu' characteristics associated with either the pit or the pendulum.
Liminal membrane seems very clearly to be an Ulgu thing because of Ulgu's association with doorways, thresholds, dawn and dusk, and liminal spaces in general. Even if you can create a liminal realm using other winds, literally weaponizing the boundary to attack people is pretty clearly an ulgu thing.

Speaking of liminal spaces, do you think Ulgu would gather in airports?
 
Or train stations, but neither of those exist right now. One could maybe make an argument for inns, but that's less transitional and it'd get all muddled up by the different emotions people in the area are feeling and the other Winds that'd attract.
 
get her an actual sword with the rune of the Unknown on it as a mastery gift
I don't think Runesmith favour is transferable; we can't use it to equip anyone else, especially someone not yet counted as Dawongr in their own right. We can pass down our items as an inheritance, but otherwise she has to earn her own Runes. Which, in fairness, she certainly will given how much she hangs around dwarves with us.
 
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Should we teach Eike our toolless enchantment cantrips if she doesn't learn it in class? I mean, on one hand, she's an heiress and can definitely easily afford a set of regular equipment, but on the other, sometimes you just get caught without your stuff while needing to do things on the go or don't want to risk damaging your expensive tools on adventures.
That lense trick has served us very well often.
 
Liminal membrane seems very clearly to be an Ulgu thing because of Ulgu's association with doorways, thresholds, dawn and dusk, and liminal spaces in general. Even if you can create a liminal realm using other winds, literally weaponizing the boundary to attack people is pretty clearly an ulgu thing.

Alternatively:

Purple wind dominates the threshold between life and death, and the edge that separates the two. The gate between is and is not. And it governs those trapped in the liminal between life and death. Even one of the grey LMs named the liminal realm they were in as adjacent to Morr's.

So pendulum is pretty obviously a shysh spell, for making that boundary actual instead of metaphorical.


The thing with ulgu's associations- doorways, thresholds, dawn and dusk- is that they are all crossed. Twisting a threshold into an actual barrier that kills the people trying to cross it really undercuts it's ability to claim it is actually a threshold and not a wall.
 
I don't think Runesmith favour is transferable; we can't use it to equip anyone else, especially someone not yet counted as Dawongr in their own right. We can pass down our items as an inheritance, but otherwise she has to earn her own Runes. Which, in fairness, she certainly will given how much she hangs around dwarves with us.
We do have that moderate boon from the Runesmith's Guild. Not saying we should use it, I'm all for Eike earning her own Dwarven bling, but I don't think they'd say no if that's what we used it for.
 
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Alternatively:

Purple wind dominates the threshold between life and death, and the edge that separates the two. The gate between is and is not. And it governs those trapped in the liminal between life and death. Even one of the grey LMs named the liminal realm they were in as adjacent to Morr's.

So pendulum is pretty obviously a shysh spell, for making that boundary actual instead of metaphorical.


The thing with ulgu's associations- doorways, thresholds, dawn and dusk- is that they are all crossed. Twisting a threshold into an actual barrier that kills the people trying to cross it really undercuts it's ability to claim it is actually a threshold and not a wall.
Okay but like...Pendulum is an Ulgu spell, actually. Yes, there's obviously flexibility to the metaphor and you can present an alternative interpretation that holds together just as well, but when presented with that kind of uncertainty I don't think it's unreasonable to favor the interpretation that aligns with observed reality.

(more generally, AFAICT Boney's general approach has been to interpret or where necessary wholesale create explanations for those bits of canonical weirdness that make it into the quest, rather than just shrugging and going "yeah there's no IC justification for this" - so expecting that trend to continue likewise seems reasonable)
 
Purple Wind doesn't dominate the threshold of life and death, it yeets everything it can into the dead territory.

Necromancy, on the other hand, is all about straddling that threshold as hard as you can.
 
What I'm trying to point out is that there is a missing peice. Doyalist is knowing the story 'The Pit and the Pendulum' and seeing why those two spells are ulgu, but there's a gap on the watsonian side.

To put it another way, I'm looking to see if there's something new or overlooked that could close the gap, not to be persuaded that there is no gap, because 'oh what's bothering you doesn't actually exist so let it go' has worked on like no one, ever.

It's not obvious at all, actually.

I see you got my point.
 
What I'm trying to point out is that there is a missing peice. Doyalist is knowing the story 'The Pit and the Pendulum' and seeing why those two spells are ulgu, but there's a gap on the watsonian side.
I mean maybe what you're trying to do is point out that there's a missing piece but it feels what you've actually done is instead point at somewhere else where there's a dozen missing pieces and go "don't these seem basically the same?"

And well, no, they don't feel basically the same, and in fact your comparison has made me feel even less like there's a missing piece. I'm not trying to convince you to Trust Me Over Your Lying Eyes if that's what you see but well, if you're trying to convince people, that might be why it's not particularly convincing.
 
Doyalist is knowing the story 'The Pit and the Pendulum' and seeing why those two spells are ulgu
Are you absolutely certain that's the only possible reason those spells exist?

The Grey spell list has included a Pit spell since all the way back in 4th edition in the early 90s (Pit of Tarnus in 4th and 5th, Pit of Shades in the following editions), while the Penumbral Pendulum was only added in 8th.
 
*The association of Ulgu with swords seems like it might have roots in setting prehistory and the process by which the Winds came into being, see the Sword of Tlanxla.
There's a parsimonious feeling for why the Sword of Tlanxla works. It's an effect/concept/spell/artifact that's centered around cutting apart and forming divisions within the fundamental energies of the warp. It imposes division on otherwise unitary spectra of churning chaos, dividing the aethyr into eight winds, with uglu being the implement that did it by way of insulating them from each other at every other area of the spectrum.

(This post is brought to you by the oxycodone I'm on to deal with the pain from having had four teeth removed yesterday morning.)
 
Am I sure about the connection between pit spells being grey and the famous story about a guy trapped in a dark room with a pit that his captors are waiting for him to fall into which he only avoids because he trips over something he can't see?

Yes.

That being strapped down underneath a razor sharp pendulum slowly descending as it swung back and forth was the thing the dude woke up to after discovering the pit and staying still- that definitely seems like how one would connect a metal device that kills you as a long-forseen inevitably to the wind of confusion and shadows.


It imposes division on otherwise unitary spectra of churning chaos, dividing the aethyr into eight winds, with uglu being the implement that did it by way of insulating them from each other at every other area of the spectrum.

This makes more sense to me, although the idea of the cut that is left behind being the same thing as the sword used to cut is a little iffy.

It seems like another way to describe this would be that the areas where things were like eachother were identified and separated, and the areas where it wasn't clear were all bundled into the same thing, which was called ulgu?

I bet you could lean on this to produce a zero-friction lubricant that engineers would kill for.
 
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This makes more sense to me, although the idea of the cut that is left behind being the same thing as the sword used to cut is a little iffy.
It's not different things. Ulgu is the "substance" of the division, it is the blade stuck in the wound keeping it divided. Or even if they are different "things", it's aethyr logic, not Standard Model Physics.
 
I'm willing to bet that not muddling your metaphors matters as much to strong magic as it does to clear communication.
 
Purple wind dominates the threshold between life and death, and the edge that separates the two. The gate between is and is not. And it governs those trapped in the liminal between life and death. Even one of the grey LMs named the liminal realm they were in as adjacent to Morr's.

So pendulum is pretty obviously a shysh spell, for making that boundary actual instead of metaphorical.
I mean...

Elemental/Mystic/Cardinal
A commonly-used magical theory in the Colleges divides each Wind into three aspects: Elemental, Mystic, and Cardinal. Elemental refers to things that align literally with specific Winds: light for the Light Magic, fog for Grey Magic, fire for Fire Magic, and so on. Mystic refers to concepts that metaphorically align with a Wind, like enlightenment for Light Magic, confusion for Grey Magic, and anger for Fire Magic. Cardinal is when you don't look at the Winds individually, but as a whole, as Elven Mages do - for example, a Light Wizard, a Bright Wizard, and a Gold Wizard would all be able to use their magic to interact with a candleflame to some degree, and thus would consider it either Elementally or Mystically aligned with their Wind, but a High Wizard would use Bright Magic as it is the most appropriate Wind, and consider it to be Cardinally aligned with Bright Magic. It is rarely used by the Colleges, as each Order prefers to casts as wide a net as possible for their Wind.
Shyish being aligned with boundaries in some way doesn't stop Ulgu from being aligned with boundaries more, or any of the Ulgu spells from belonging where they do.

And Shyish is the Wind of endings, so you can make a "sword because it kills", but not a "sword because it has an edge".
 
But shysh blades are usually scythes, right? Because reaping and death are tied more than war and death, despite the same overlap. Time and natural causes take more than war.

If we look for a blade associated with ulgu concepts, we get a dagger. And the thing is, we've already GOT a perfect dagger. Our modified shadow-chisel with ignore armor; Mathilde prefers to use it for quiet kills. We even have training in na fighting style that specializes in going from 0 to 100 with no warning and uses daggers or stakes.

Honestly if we want to leave a martial style legacy in the grey college, shadow dagger plus Sylvanian dagger training is not a bad one.
 
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But shysh blades are usually scythes, right? Because reaping and death are tied more than war and death, despite the same overlap. Time and natural causes take more than war.
Is that a hard rule or do most Imperial Magisters just associate scythes so heavily with death because of Morr? Cause from what I can tell from the wiki, Shyish is as attracted to battlefields as it is graveyards, which makes sense; sure, time and natural causes ultimately kill more, but war still has a heavy association with death, and lots of it.

Now, I know very, very little about WHF outside of this quest, so feel free to point out where I'm wrong, but I see little reason to believe Shyish can't manifest other types of weapons of war.
 
But shysh blades are usually scythes, right? Because reaping and death are tied more than war and death, despite the same overlap. Time and natural causes take more than war.

If we look for a blade associated with ulgu concepts, we get a dagger. And the thing is, we've already GOT a perfect dagger. Our modified shadow-chisel with ignore armor; Mathilde prefers to use it for quiet kills. We even have training in na fighting style that specializes in going from 0 to 100 with no warning and uses daggers or stakes.

Honestly if we want to leave a martial style legacy in the grey college, shadow dagger plus Sylvanian dagger training is not a bad one.
To be honest, I've lost track of your argument at this point.

Ulgu is the Wind of boundaries, which is why it's linked to liminal realms in a way that other Winds are not. It's tied to cutting things via imposing those boundaries. It's tied to swords twice over, as it's a cutting tool and also because swords themselves are directly associated with Ulgu, via the Sword of Tlanxla.

That no one's made an Ulgu sword spell before does not mean that swords won't work with Ulgu. We don't have to try and pass on some bargain-bin daggery version of our sword style, that we invented for use with a sword, when we can just have them use a sword.
 
At this point I don't have a point, I'm just thinking out loud in response to points. You heard mine and responded, I moved on to new?

Edited.
 
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Is that a hard rule or do most Imperial Magisters just associate scythes so heavily with death because of Morr? Cause from what I can tell from the wiki, Shyish is as attracted to battlefields as it is graveyards, which makes sense; sure, time and natural causes ultimately kill more, but war still has a heavy association with death, and lots of it.

Now, I know very, very little about WHF outside of this quest, so feel free to point out where I'm wrong, but I see little reason to believe Shyish can't manifest other types of weapons of war.
I wonder what a Nehekharan would summon?

Usirian is never depicted directly (it was considered sacrilege), and his main symbols seem to be a set of scales (as seen with the Hierotitan) and beetles (as seen with Tomb Swarms and Apophas). Not exactly any weapon associated with him.
 
But shysh blades are usually scythes, right? Because reaping and death are tied more than war and death, despite the same overlap. Time and natural causes take more than war.

If we look for a blade associated with ulgu concepts, we get a dagger. And the thing is, we've already GOT a perfect dagger. Our modified shadow-chisel with ignore armor; Mathilde prefers to use it for quiet kills. We even have training in na fighting style that specializes in going from 0 to 100 with no warning and uses daggers or stakes.

Honestly if we want to leave a martial style legacy in the grey college, shadow dagger plus Sylvanian dagger training is not a bad one.
Thematics can be stretched, though. You wouldn't normally expect Aqshy (fire and heat and passion) to be associated with swords specifically, but it has Flaming Sword of Rhuin. You wouldn't expect Chamon (logic and reasoning and heavy metals) to be associated with archery of all things, but it has Silver Arrows of Arha.

We know that the Colleges try to stretch the limits of what their Winds can do because they can only theirs, as opposed to Elves who will pick the "right" Wind in their opinion for a given situation. I see no reason not to try in this case.

And if we specifically have to look for an association, even without considering the Sword of Tlanxla, we know canonically that Ulgu's symbol is called the Sword of Judgement. In fact, if I squint and look at it from the side, I would say that's how Chamon manages Silver Arrows of Arha, given that its symbol is the Soaring Eagle (a very odd choice, given that the symbol looks nothing like one, and given that eagles fly high while Chamon is association with heavy metals).

Ultimately I take the perspective that picklepikkl does - it's doable, but I see little chance of finding the AP to do it anytime soon.
 
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