Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Alratan · Jul 25, 2023

Redshirt Army said:
Ah, unfortunate.

...although that does mean that even a "perfect" doppelgänger of Mathilde would have a pretty obvious tell that it wasn't real in a lot of scenarios, which reduces its utility as a misdirection tool in general. We may have to "settle" for "merely" a decent murderblender.

Note this requires a lot of detailed knowledge of Mathilde's spell repertoire and masteries.

How would a bunch of orcs chasing her, for example, know that she would usually have a Cloud of Confusion or Rolling Shadows active, or how long they last, or whether she could cast them in combat...

It's only a tell for people who are exceptionally well informed, and I doubt the Grey College in general or Mathilde in particular advertise the details of what their spells do or what their limitations are. If she was fighting one of her peers, sure, they could spot a discrepancy. Just abotu anyone else though? Even very well informed people should have no idea of how her Masteries work, as they're literally unique to her.

Rafin said:
Uhm, a single armored horse rider summoned near Mathilde herself is not better than a Demigryph in any one of those situations. Single war horses don't have an easier time breaking bunched infantry that a beast that is both larger and spikier.

I get that Boney said that war horses are better at charges against infantry, but I am almost definitely sure that he meant it in the context of an actual cavalry charge.

If something with the mass and momentum of a warhorse that's completely fearless and largelly immune to damage from non-magical weapons had charged into that infantry at the time, it should have cleared a lot of space for Mathilde could jhave made good use of.

Zero Gravitas · Jul 25, 2023

Alratan said:
and doesn't have a long record casting big flashy spells in battle.

This is sort of debatable. Mathilde destroyed Birdmuncha's Waaagh with a supercharged spell and used BM very extensively during the Karak Vlag Expedition.

Boney said:
Roiling Shadows includes the base effect of Dread Aspect, so anyone capable of feeling fear will instantly be able to tell the two apart.

Not sure if this was asked before but could the Avatar trait be used to develop a spell that'd puppet or influence the Apparition?

Gavin Prince · Jul 25, 2023

As much as mundane production makes for a much wider applicability, it's a little sad that the action we took in the hopes of exploring [Windherding] turns out not to actually need much of it. Winds-infused material, but single Winds at a time, potentially by wizards working entirely alone in a lab.

The Speculum is back on the menu for that research, it seems.

Talon TigerDino · Jul 25, 2023

To follow up on Alratan's question @Boney , does an Apparition that breaks free from its binding go back to its original form, since it's the bindings that changed its appearance to begin with?

BurnNote · Jul 25, 2023

Now, I love the idea of spider, but how does that work? Limb count has to be retained, but spiders have eight, right?

Kiera · Jul 25, 2023

kingreaper said:
Kragg has a windsense

Boney said:
Kragg was as blind to the Winds of Magic as the rest of his kin, but he knew them all.

Kragg does not have a windsense, he just has a lot of experience and knowledge about the winds and their behaviour.

Gavin Prince · Jul 25, 2023

BurnNote said:
Now, I love the idea of spider, but how does that work? Limb count has to be retained, but spiders have eight, right?

It's a stretch, would need training on a new moveset, but it's still fundamentally doing what it wants to be doing (stabbing people with spiky-ended limbs) in a shape that's mostly familiar so it would go along with it.

Really it's probably just Boney being nice.

Alratan · Jul 25, 2023

Zero Gravitas said:
This is sort of debatable. Mathilde destroyed Birdmuncha's Waaagh with a supercharged spell and used BM very extensively during the Karak Vlag Expedition.

She piloted a giant magical tower where no one on the battlefield could see her during Birdmuncha's Waaagh and didn't cast any very flashy spells during the Karak Vlag expedition. She used RoW a lot, but not on the battlefield. She wasn't throwing out Penumbral Pendulums or Pits of Shade, and Melkoth's Miasma is relatively subtle battle magic.

Fayhem · Jul 25, 2023

[ ] [RIDER] Mathilde on a Shadowsteed

Consider: presenting the Grey College with the new Battle Magic spell Mathilde's Mystically Murderous Mathildes and having it be too cool for their Battle Wizards not to learn.

[ ] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual

AFAICT at least half the point of making this thing is our quest for Kragg Headpats and if you want to impress the most cantankerous Runelord in the whole ass Karaz Ankor the quick and easy version is probably not the way to go, actually.

Talon TigerDino · Jul 25, 2023

Rafin said:
Uhm, a single armored horse rider summoned near Mathilde herself is not better than a Demigryph in any one of those situations. Single war horses don't have an easier time breaking bunched infantry that a beast that is both larger and spikier.

I get that Boney said that war horses are better at charges against infantry, but I am almost definitely sure that he meant it in the context of an actual cavalry charge.

If Gehenna's Golden Hounds are any indicator, then Apparitions can be thrown out going at a full tilt rather than a standing position.

Parabola · Jul 25, 2023

Kiera said:
Kragg does not have a windsense, he just has a lot of experience and knowledge about the winds and their behaviour.

IIRC Runesmiths have been noted to be able to sense magic in the same way an armored individual is able, with a lot of experience, to sense what attempts to hit their armor, and whether it's a sword, axe, etc. Kragg's is extra strong due to being really old and experienced - see how he was able to sense the ripples of the destroyed liminal realm.

This sense is not very useful for research, but I imagine it's useful in the battlefield to some extent.

kingreaper · Jul 25, 2023

Kiera said:
Kragg does not have a windsense, he just has a lot of experience and knowledge about the winds and their behaviour.

He is capable of sensing the winds. The paragraph above your quoted one talks about him sensing the winds, and being able to tell them apart.

He's blind to them because he doesn't have VISUAL windsense, but he's capable of sensing them as are all runesmiths - even the runepokers of Vlag are capable of sensing the winds.

agumentic · Jul 25, 2023

Gavin Prince said:
As much as mundane production makes for a much wider applicability, it's a little sad that the action we took in the hopes of exploring [Windherding] turns out not to actually need much of it. Winds-infused material, but single Winds at a time, potentially by wizards working entirely alone in a lab.

The Speculum is back on the menu for that research, it seems.

Well, it actually needs a lot of Windherding, just in the engineering part of it rather than in the making part. But I get what you're saying, too.

Zaratustra · Jul 25, 2023

Alratan said:
Note this requires a lot of detailed knowledge of Mathilde's spell repertoire and masteries.

How would a bunch of orcs chasing her, for example, know that she would usually have a Cloud of Confusion or Rolling Shadows active, or how long they last, or whether she could cast them in combat...

See I think you are missing the catch-22 of a decoy, it is trying to sell that is Mathilde, specificaly, there fighting. If the people who know her fighting style can tell something is wrong, and the ignorant don't know enought to care either way that means there is just a small middle ground where it actualy works and makes a diference.

NSMS · Jul 25, 2023

You know, I think everyone has missed what is clearly the best option.

[] A horse riding an armoured knight.

Boney · Jul 25, 2023

Saidoro said:
[] Ranald in a slightly shoddy knight costume on a giant housecat

Saw it proposed before, but don't think anyone fully wrote it up. I'm also in favor of the knight of judgement, the knight of Mathilde, the Redshirt version of the dammerlichtritter, and the Nazgul on an exotic mount. (Though I'd prefer a wolf to a demigryph.)

I feel like there'd be a strong secondary specialty of skirmishing against big monsters. Jump in, bite the legs or flanks then GTFO before it stomps you sort of thing.

That would be viable too. Multiple of them would be a really good counter for big monsters. Possibly even more so than actual Winter Wolves, if the rider can't fall off then there's no reason to hold back from the leaping attacks.

Ericwinter said:
Is this just for the initial invention, and once we've figured it out Mathilde can write down the engineering specifications so anybody sufficiently skilled can remake it? Or would Mathilde have to be involved with every instance made?

I presume the former, because the latter would make even the auditory option bad for large scale deployment.

The former.

Alratan said:
Normally, it seems that Apparitions don't attack regular people and focus on hunting down wizards. It certainly seems that this is how the one we just caught was behaving.

When a wizard miscasts manifesting a bound Apparition, do they revert to this part of their wild behaviour, and so focus on killing nearby wizards, perhaps particularly the wizard who bound them, or do they just go after anyone nearby, or do they particularly target the caster's allies.

I'm trying to see how big the risk that's been raised of miscasts causing Rider Mathildes to attack the Imperial troops the battle wizard would be fighting alongside is?

The first part of their training consists of breaking or redirecting their wild behaviour, so they only 'revert' early on. After that they attack whoever's nearby, either because they're angry and lashing out or because they're confused and they're defaulting to attacking whoever and hoping it's the right person.

Rafin said:
Uhm, a single armored horse rider summoned near Mathilde herself is not better than a Demigryph in any one of those situations. Single war horses don't have an easier time breaking bunched infantry that a beast that is both larger and spikier.

I get that Boney said that war horses are better at charges against infantry, but I am almost definitely sure that he meant it in the context of an actual cavalry charge.

He didn't. Horses are blunt instruments, when they charge it's a broad chest and trampling hooves. Cats are knives, when they charge it's paws outstretched and mouth open. I say this as someone with a fair bit of experience with both.

Zero Gravitas said:
Not sure if this was asked before but could the Avatar trait be used to develop a spell that'd puppet or influence the Apparition?

If Avatar was applicable to Apparitions, Mathilde would be committing some super hardcore blasphemy right about now.

Talon TigerDino said:
To follow up on Alratan's question @Boney , does an Apparition that breaks free from its binding go back to its original form, since it's the bindings that changed its appearance to begin with?

No. The leash has broken but it's still wearing the harness.

BurnNote said:
Now, I love the idea of spider, but how does that work? Limb count has to be retained, but spiders have eight, right?

Spiders walk by moving two pairs of legs at a time, so you can replicate it with four limbs worth of control and have two left for the pedipalps.

Kiera said:
Kragg does not have a windsense, he just has a lot of experience and knowledge about the winds and their behaviour.

Boney said:
Runesmiths don't sense the Winds directly, they attune themselves to the protection all Dwarves have so they can sense how it reacts to the presence of the Winds. Like wearing a suit of armour and sensing a tennis ball that bounces off it without ever directly touching it.

It's not much of a Windsense, which is why Kragg considers himself blind. But it is something.

LawsOfRobotics · Jul 25, 2023

For the form of the Rider, I really think we should consider how the form of the mount can be weaponized. The Demigryph Knight or Winter Wolves form would have powerful biting and clawing attacks in addition to the sword of the rider. For those hoping the Winged Lancer form would have the same unsettling magical effect as the real thing, I just want to point something out:

Boney said:
The next morning the quiet of dawn is broken by the eerie howl given off by the 'wings' of the Winged Lancers of the Gospodar: a banner of feathers attached to the rear of their saddle that gives off an ululation that ripples through the air and the Winds alike, which rather piques your interest. Everyone that has spoken or written of Kislev at war mentions the howl of the Winged Lancers, and you can see why. At first you suspect enchantment, but as careful a study as one can make on the march later you realize that it is an enchantment only in the most technical of senses, in the same way that a lever is a machine. The product of centuries of tradition and bloodshed have created something that simply exists as much in the ethereal realm as it does in the physical, and when dragged through the ethereal at great speed and in great numbers creates a reverberation that is as unsettling to the soul as the howl of the wings is to the ears. You spend the rest of the day trying and failing to find a way to expand that single sentence into something that justifies an entire paper on the subject, and eventually conclude that you might be able to accomplish it if you're able to personally witness the effect the charge has on sufficiently varied foes.

We are unlikely to have sufficient numbers of Riders to generate the effect.

I am still tempted by Mathilde on a Shadowsteed, Mounted Wraiths, or an Ulgu dragon form, but I really want to weaponize the mount part of the form without giving up the advantages of opposable thumbs and looking like troops for Warrior of Fog.

Alratan · Jul 25, 2023

Zaratustra said:
See I think you are missing the catch-22 of a decoy, it is trying to sell that is Mathilde, specificaly, there fighting. If the people who know her fighting style can tell something is wrong, and the ignorant don't know enought to care either way that means there is just a small middle ground where it actualy works and makes a diference.

It's not that people have to know her fighting style (not that almost anyone will). They have to know incredibly sensitive details of how her spell masteries work that she's probably never told another living soul because in her line of work such information can be used against her.

People who something would probably know she's a wizard who prefers to kill her enemies with a sword rather than spells. The Rider can do a very good impression of that.

There's not a small middle ground here. It should convince everyone in the moment except probably Johann. I don't think anyone else has fought alongside her enough to spot the differences.

And she's not attempting to deceive her close friends and most trusted allies here. She's aiming to deceive people who've seen her face and a few minutes of her in action when she's done something they don't like, or she's attempting to deceive people who may have heard some details of her growing legend, or seen a sketch of her in a dossier. There are many mostly ignorant people who would be highly motivated to care, such as the aforementioned people in the first example chasing or looking for her, or those in the second who've learned what's public and possible to find private knowledge. That covers just about everyone she might want to deceive.

It's not a catch-22, you're just excluding the middle. People don't either have precisely zero or absolutely comprehensive knowledge.

MiracleGrow · Jul 25, 2023

I really want a Knight riding a very large cat. That feels like the perfect concept for the Grey Order as a whole and I think Ranald would like it.

If your worried about a target being able to climb up something to escape the riders. Cats are certainly very good at climbing!

BeepSmile · Jul 25, 2023

Redshirt Army said:
I'm a lot less sanguine about trusting every single Grey Battle Wizard on every battlefield stretching into the future to never fumble and lead to a bunch of "Mathilde's" slaughtering Empire troops.

I second this, a miscast by a future grey wizards resulting in the apparition breaking free of them and attacking allies feels like a statistical inevitability, and I never want a thing that looks like Mathilde to be seen attacking allies.

Also, it's an argument against stuff like using Mathilde's knightly symbol, and to a lesser extent something that isn't plainly a monster/creature or really weird.

Like a knight on a big cat.

Abhorsen said:
It's not just a bit cringe: it's a bad idea when we inevitably miscast, because then we get the bad rap of a buncha mathildes going across killing people. And we will miscast. It's nearly inevitable for any battle magic.

Stop dressing it up as something palatable. It should look like a monster, so that when it goes out of control, we are blamed for losing control, not purposely betraying everyone around us.

There's a good reason every other apparition spell doesn't look friendly.

More than [just] Mathilde miscasting, it's someone else miscasting.

Parabola said:
As someone pointed out before, we still have the Wizards of K8P painting if that happens.

Also, my sapphic heart would be fine with Panoramia mainly remembering the sound of Mathilde's voice while she makes puns, or how her hand feels. Like. Let's not worry about Forgettable just yet.

Wow, but this post really takes the edge off my long term fear of that mark. Thank you, and your sapphic heart in particular.

Horium · Jul 25, 2023

Honestly, putting Mathilde's heraldry (let alone her face) on the Rider feels a bit cringe.

Also potentially problematic from the PR standpoint should Mathilde (or any other Gray down the line) have a mishap while casting or lose control in any way.

Having a bog-standard misty grey Knight is good enough for me.

Ericwinter · Jul 25, 2023

Boney said:
He didn't. Horses are blunt instruments, when they charge it's a broad chest and trampling hooves. Cats are knives, when they charge it's paws outstretched and mouth open. I say this as someone with a fair bit of experience with both.

Welp, I know what I'm voting for.

Redshirt Army · Jul 25, 2023

It doesn't take detailed knowledge of Mathilde's spell masteries to notice that one Mathilde causes supernatural fear, and the other Mathilde doesn't.

If Mathilde was causing supernatural fear earlier in the fight when she was fighting alone, then that alone is pretty indicative of which one is the fake.

GrimTheMad · Jul 25, 2023

I'd prefer not to overcomplicate it personally. Just put a person with a sharp object on a dangerous animal and call it good.

I've come around to a Winter Wolf- it seems like a good middle ground between demigryph and horse, and Ranald did give Mathilde a puppy that one time.

Glau · Jul 25, 2023

I'm not interested in using this as a decoy or clever ploy sort of thing: we've got illusion, invisibility, take no heed, sounds, all sorts of magic that does that. If we want a duplicate, we can just make an illusion of one already.

Alratan said:
This is something that would be useful as a decoy every time we're on a battle field and every time we've had to exfiltrate ourselves in a loud way. These have happened multiple times.

Much like the dammerlichter, which was a thing for a few months a decade and some ago and now is just a back country rumor, this isn't really an applicable situation any more. We've solved that problem, and we've already got the spells for decoys and exfiltrations. Fighting the last war is how you lose the next one.

mathymancer said:
auditory Seviroscope (Winds Chime)

This is very clever. I like it.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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