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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Oh, I'm not sure if anyone asked about the Hoeth books. @Boney did the Hoeth books have any novel insights on running/organising a library? It was a moderately long shot, but that's why we picked Hoeth IIRC.

Glau said:
We want the hochlander to *train* her, because he's got a lot of expertise doing training of agents. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that this is a waste of either her or him.
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I think people are frustrated because the Hochlander's taking untrained people and turning them into agents, where Eike has likely receieved at least a similar level of training already. The Hochlander's a permanent apprentice remember - his training stems from the same training that Eike's already undergone, I think.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I don't know what you're trying to say? We don't need to know her actual score. Intrigue is what she's "best at", and rather than assuming she's had a substandard education and asking a member of our staff to fill in a gap we don't even know exists, we should just let her put her training into practice.

And if there is a gap, that'll be made apparent by the practical exercise and we can then take steps to deal with it.

But apparently people want to skip all those steps and waste the Hochlander's time teaching her before we know what she needs to be taught.
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The Hochlander has barely done anything truly useful since we hired him to justify his 1 CF/turn expense, I think his time could stand to be wasted with alacrity :V

On a more serious note it whould give her a chance to get used to things like the auditing service of the EIC and the more intrigue focused side of it.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I don't know what you're trying to say? We don't need to know her actual score. Intrigue is what she's "best at", and rather than assuming she's had a substandard education and asking a member of our staff to fill in a gap we don't even know exists, we should just let her put her training into practice.

And if there is a gap, that'll be made apparent by the practical exercise and we can then take steps to deal with it.

But apparently people want to skip all those steps and waste the Hochlander's time teaching her before we know what she needs to be taught.
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No we want to actually know what her skills are before throwing her into situations all alone. Imagine we had forced her to do public talking for her Diplo score reveal, we would have found out about "seen, not heard" at the worst possible time.
After we know what our cute apprentice has in her we can send her at everything but we got her for like 1.5 years of s generally 10 year apprenticeship so why the damn hurry...
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I think people are frustrated because the Hochlander's taking untrained people and turning them into agents, where Eike has likely receieved at least a similar level of training already. The Hochlander's a permanent apprentice remember - his training stems from the same training that Eike's already undergone, I think.
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A similar level of magic training, but a couple decades doing tradecraft and all the other non-magical parts of grey order skills.
 
Glau said:
We want the hochlander to *train* her, because he's got a lot of expertise doing training of agents. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that this is a waste of either her or him.
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If we want Eike to learn a skill, we should hire a tutor, not pass her off to man who was hired to run a spy agency. The Hochlander is not a teacher. Instructing apprentices—instructing our apprentice—is not his job.

We should instead stop handling her with kid gloves—as Boney has already warned us about—and instruct her to assist with an actual project, not some generic training.
 
Tobtorp said:
No we want to actually know what her skills are before throwing her into situations all alone. Imagine we had forced her to do public talking for her Diplo score reveal, we would have found out about "seen, not heard" at the worst possible time.
After we know what our cute apprentice has in her we can send her at everything but we got her for like 1.5 years of s generally 10 year apprenticeship so why the damn hurry...
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We know all of her traits now, so there's no remaining landmines like that to worry about. Similarly, we know she's pretty good at Intrigue, even if we don't know the exact number.

dinomannitro6 said:
A similar level of magic training, but several decades doing tradecraft and all the other non-magical parts of grey order skills.
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That's fair. I still kind of doubt that he's training his agents to the level of prospective Grey Wizards, but he himself is beyond that.
 
My thoughts on the leading actions:

Roadmap to Success:

It's... fine? I prefer Whispering Shadows but I'd be okay with doing the Riders as our first apparition binding too.

Not a fan of the Egrimm action, I'd like to finally get Windherding moving, and the Sevirscope neatly ties into our recent Elementalist BÖÖKs to help Kragg. Plus there's the neat little narrative of Eike learning enchantment and then being involved in a bunch of enchantment-adjacent things.

That said, I did actually enjoy our last mapping action and fully agree with the need to map Tilea eventually, so I'm not gonna riot or anything if this wins.

Plan Bring Running Shoes:

We were so close to greatness, we were this close! This almost does what I want, then veers into a ditch when it makes a random gaudy cloak instead of the Sevirscope we want for Kragg or Horstmann's Speculum for style points. I don't mind the Red Riders half as much as I do that choice of windherder enchantment.

Plan Redshirt v4.53236

It me. It's my plan, so I get to pick the actions, and I prefer Whispering Shadows. Deal with it. 😎

Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope:

Objectively the superior plan to plain Running Shoes. This being lower in the polls is clear proof: Democracy simply does not work.

Jokes aside, I'm gonna approval vote this.
 
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Retrueno said:
Talking about BM, I wonder if it would be possible for Mathilde to create a spell that generates a fog that confuses the Windsight and ability of our enemies to percive magical energies (not that it turns off, but that they perceive them wrong) of all enemies using her Windsage trait. With the goal of it acting as a massive magic debuf: dissabling them from casting or increasing massively their chances of miscats or diminissing their counterspelling capabilities or increasing the chances of counterspelling of our allies, etc. Actually if it's possible I feel all of those would make sense...
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Sounds like a workable idea to me, as long as it's possible for Ulgu to even do that. I think that'd be a really cool spell, though we should remember that Mathilde's Windsight isn't the strongest out there.

Maybe one way it could work is by messing with a mage's perception of magic? Imagine you've got visible Windsight but then a spell makes it so you perceive it as visceral Windsight instead. Try casting anything when you're feeling the phantom sensation of your guts cramping sideways on you.
 
[x] Plan foundations for Foundations
-[x] Coin : PROTECTOR
-[x] Tributary: International (Kislev)
-[x] Tributary: International (Bretonnia)
-[x] [x] [x] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[x] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Eonir. (Ore)
-[x] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Nuln Library. (Minor colleges)
-[x] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADED) - Collaboration with Egrimm as main author
-[x] Eike Actions: Ore trade route, Windfall paper
-[x] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander


[x] Plan foundations for Foundations with SECRET PLACE
-[x] Coin : PROTECTOR
-[x] Tributary: International (Kislev)
-[x] Tributary: International (Bretonnia)
-[x] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[x] [x] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[x] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Eonir. (Ore)
-[x] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Nuln Library. (Minor colleges)
-[x] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADED) - Collaboration with Egrimm as main author
-[x] Eike Actions: Ore trade route, Windfall paper
-[x] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

[X] Plan Elfcation Time!
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success w/ Whispering Darkness
[X] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I think people are frustrated because the Hochlander's taking untrained people and turning them into agents, where Eike has likely receieved at least a similar level of training already. The Hochlander's a permanent apprentice remember - his training stems from the same training that Eike's already undergone, I think.
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His basic training might have been similar to Eike's, or maybe it was more extensive (he actually finished his apprenticeship, I'm pretty sure). But also he has spent the last seven years running the EIC's intelligence network. In this time he completed the following tasks:

-Finding traders that sold peat to vampires (the Templars already had that mostly covered, but he did well enough to earn himself some Witch Hunter contacts)
-Build the information network of the EIC (by hiring handlers and creating organization wide cyphers)
-Running said network for seven years
-Find where the Skaven gunpowder in the Skull River Ambush probably came from (by far his greatest achievement imo)
-Infiltrate the Cult of Karnos
-Infiltrate the Talabecland administration

We give the EIC intelligene network a lot of flak for being mostly useless, and rightfully so, but the Hochlander actually completed all tasks given to him as well as you could expect. And I think doing actual large-scale spying for seven years might have taught him a few things.
 
Okay, let me try to explain what I don't like about the tradecraft action.

What I expect to happen is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. He's going to spend the next few months teaching you how to be a spy."

What I want is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. I want the two of you to come up with a plan for inserting agents into key positions in Nordland so we can track their movements and intervene in case they try something against Laurelorn. I will review the plan, and if I approve it we'll deploy it. You have full use of EIC resources."

The first one is just "Eike, go listen to this man, he's going to teach you stuff". The second is "Eike, here's some on the job training. The objective is real, but you have backup so don't worry about making a mistake."
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
We should instead stop handling her with kid gloves—as Boney has already warned us about—and instruct her to assist with an actual project, not some generic training.
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We sent her on a solo mini journey across three countries last turn. Please show me the kid gloves.

Also? She's an apprentice. She is here because she still needs to learn things. Generic training is set up to teach apprentices. We did a ton of generic training in our own apprenticeship, from the flashbacks with our master.

So do you want her to have the best grounding and tools, or do you want to exploit her for free labour and hope she fills in the gaps on her own later?

Because that's the difference between training and actual projects. Both are new to Eike and will teach her plenty. But one is useful to us, and one is useful to her.
 
mathymancer said:
His basic training might have been similar to Eike's, or maybe it was more extensive (he actually finished his apprenticeship, I'm pretty sure). But also he has spent the last seven years running the EIC's intelligence network. In this time he completed the following tasks:

-Finding traders that sold peat to vampires (the Templars already had that mostly covered, but he did well enough to earn himself some Witch Hunter contacts)
-Build the information network of the EIC (by hiring handlers and creating organization wide cyphers)
-Running said network for seven years
-Find where the Skaven gunpowder in the Skull River Ambush probably came from (by far his greatest achievement imo)
-Infiltrate the Cult of Karnos
-Infiltrate the Talabecland administration

We give the EIC intelligene network a lot of flak for being mostly useless, and rightfully so, but the Hochlander actually completed all tasks given to him as well as you could expect. And I think doing actual large-scale spying for seven years might have taught him a few things.
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It has been mostly useless because we didn't use the damn thing. Our priority always seemed to be the economic side of it, which isn't bad but saying "it has been useless" when we are the ones not using it just feels bad.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Okay, let me try to explain what I don't like about the tradecraft action.

What I expect to happen is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. He's going to spend the next few months teaching you how to be a spy."

What I want is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. I want the two of you to come up with a plan for inserting agents into key positions in Nordland so we can track their movements and intervene in case they try something against Laurelorn. I will review the plan, and if I approve it we'll deploy it. You have full use of EIC resources."

The first one is just "Eike, go listen to this man, he's going to teach you stuff". The second is "Eike, here's some on the job training. The objective is real, but you have backup so don't worry about making a mistake."
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But in order to do that, we need to actually spend our EIC AP on taking a spy action. We don't get to have a bonus EIC action for free. So unless you also want to drop the fog road action, this objection doesn't make sense to me.

Plus, It's not like taking a training action stops her from later shadowing us/the Hochlander on an espionage action. So I don't understand what the problem is; mathymancer's plan isn't doing Windherding, so there's no rush to teach Eike Enchanting, and her getting some training and practice working together is fine?

(Also, it's not like our master gave us real assignments when we were her age. He gave us toy problems of tailing random people, he didn't have us work his spy shit with him until later. We're not coddling Eike, this seems extremely normal based on our own Apprenticeship except that we aren't doing it ourself but giving it to our chief of espionage to do.)
HanChenYou said:
Is there a top plan without attempting to create a liminal realm?
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The highest-voted plan without that action is Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows, but it's only got 5 votes and I think it is very unlikely to win, so the real answer to your question is "no."
 
Glau said:
We sent her on a solo mini journey across three countries last turn. Please show me the kid gloves.
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I mean, you called that choice of action a mistake not that long ago.

We didn't handle Eike with kid gloves with that assignment, and it worked out well. We should keep doing that.



Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Okay, let me try to explain what I don't like about the tradecraft action.

What I expect to happen is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. He's going to spend the next few months teaching you how to be a spy."

What I want is this:

"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. I want the two of you to come up with a plan for inserting agents into key positions in Nordland so we can track their movements and intervene in case they try something against Laurelorn. I will review the plan, and if I approve it we'll deploy it. You have full use of EIC resources."

The first one is just "Eike, go listen to this man, he's going to teach you stuff". The second is "Eike, here's some on the job training. The objective is real, but you have backup so don't worry about making a mistake."
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I fully agree with this. Eike will generally both learn more and be more effective when we involve her in real scenarios instead of just giving her lessons in a classroom setting.
 
Glau said:
We sent her on a solo mini journey across three countries last turn. Please show me the kid gloves.

Also? She's an apprentice. She is here because she still needs to learn things. Generic training is set up to teach apprentices. We did a ton of generic training in our own apprenticeship, from the flashbacks with our master.

So do you want her to have the best grounding and tools, or do you want to exploit her for free labour and hope she fills in the gaps on her own later?

Because that's the difference between training and actual projects. Both are new to Eike and will teach her plenty. But one is useful to us, and one is useful to her.
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You seem to be misunderstanding me. I don't want Eike to go off into the wilderness by herself. I want her to organise an actual EIC project. I want her to support something we're doing.

There's a whole spectrum of options between "Eike, this man is your teacher for the next few months" and "Eike, figure it out for yourself".

I want to combine Eike's training with an actual EIC project to infiltrate Nordland, using EIC resources, and with both Mathilde and the Hochlander standing over her shoulder.

An actual practical task with, yes, real world consequences, but with a safety net. I do not want to send her off to learn theory, especially when the chosen tutor isn't even supposed to be her teacher.

picklepikkl said:
But in order to do that, we need to actually spend our EIC AP on taking a spy action. We don't get to have a bonus EIC action for free. So unless you also want to drop the fog road action, this objection doesn't make sense to me.
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NEXT TURN! WE'LL DO IT NEXT TURN.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
"Eike, this is Rudiger. He's my chief spy. I want the two of you to come up with a plan for inserting agents into key positions in Nordland so we can track their movements and intervene in case they try something against Laurelorn. I will review the plan, and if I approve it we'll deploy it. You have full use of EIC resources."
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If you really want her to do on the job training, I thing cutting back from 'spy a whole province in 1 turn' to just a single city or a specific organization would be good.
 
Derpmind said:
Sounds like a workable idea to me, as long as it's possible for Ulgu to even do that. I think that'd be a really cool spell, though we should remember that Mathilde's Windsight isn't the strongest out there.

Maybe one way it could work is by messing with a mage's perception of magic? Imagine you've got visible Windsight but then a spell makes it so you perceive it as visceral Windsight instead. Try casting anything when you're feeling the phantom sensation of your guts cramping sideways on you.
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I hadn't though about implementing it that way but it also works although my original idea was more along the lines of outright manipulating how enemy casters would perceive magic energy, in the same way we can create a fog spell which manipulates perception so our allies can see through it but not our enemies. For example altering their perception so they perceive Ulgu as Hish and Hish as Ulgu, although more subtle and far less exagerated. I don't think you need to mess a lot with their magic perception to mess with their spells. @Boney would this spell be possible?
 
Mildly frustrating that more people aren't voting for my preferred set of options, but I'm not mad, just disappointed.
[Edit: I'm joking. 'Roadmap to Success' is exactly what I want except for where the coin is placed.]

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
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I'll drop the below votes if the above one picks up enough steam.

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope

This is also nice:

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
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I do think that we'd be better off switching out either Egrimm, Elrisse or Zlata from the Foundations action and replacing them with Askel but I suppose its much too late for plans to be edited. Ah well.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
NEXT TURN! WE'LL DO IT NEXT TURN.
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...so? What's the harm in "ok, Eike, this turn Rudiger's going to give you some toy problems to solve and give you basic fieldwork experience, just like my Master did for me, and then next turn you guys collaborate on a real job"? Besides the fact that Eike is going to give Mathilde a look of confusion about what unit of time a "turn" is, of course.
 
This turn we're doing the fog bridge. Next turn, we can do the Nordland spy action and make it Eike's training action. That's what I'm trying to say. We don't need to send her on a theoretical tradecraft course this turn.

This turn we'll do something else—many plans have her learning enchanting so she can help with windherding.

picklepikkl said:
...so? What's the harm in "ok, Eike, this turn Rudiger's going to give you some toy problems to solve and give you basic fieldwork experience, just like my Master did for me, and then next turn you guys collaborate on a real job"? Besides the fact that Eike is going to give Mathilde a look of confusion about what unit of time a "turn" is, of course.
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The "toy problems" bit, that's what I object to. No fake activities, no training exercises, no games. Eike deserves to participate in real jobs, not pretend ones.
 
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