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Hatalath will learn about it how? And even if he did, why would the Elves be grateful for it? I'd honestly expect the RoW over the swamp to be more likely to unlock Elf Favour.
Well, presumably we could tell him, in much the same way we enticed Thorek to want to work with us on the matter - it was useful to him. Like I said though, it's a long shot. It's also possible there's military uses to AV that would be more obvious to Hatalath than to us, in which case we may wish to avoid risks and never bring it up.
 
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Why would we need to get the Colleges hooked? Are you imagining they would somehow refuse?
I am using it a simile, like brave like a Lion, clever as a Fox, or in this case hooked like addict. Because Mathilde being able to create some of the most powerful items the colleges have is huge and potential profitable to Mathilde in political, financial and reputation.
Hatalath will learn about it how? And even if he did, why would the Elves be grateful for it? I'd honestly expect the RoW over the swamp to be more likely to unlock Elf Favour.


I'm pretty sure Algard's knowledge about how to do magic with liminal realms is too wrapped up in his own understanding of magic. It's uncodified and Mathilde thus cannot learn it. Anything that isn't practical Mathilde can just buy a book on.
We actually do not know if it is codifying or not. But with a Randal coin anything is possible. Right now Algard is the greatest living expert the colleges have and really the only known available option for Mathilde to not have to spend a lifetime doing research.
 
I am using it a simile, like brave like a Lion, clever as a Fox, or in this case hooked like addict. Because Mathilde being able to create some of the most powerful items the colleges have is huge and potential profitable to Mathilde in political, financial and reputation.

We actually do not know if it is codifying or not. But with a Randal coin anything is possible. Right now Algard is the greatest living expert the colleges have and really the only known available option for Mathilde to not have to spend a lifetime doing research.
Why do you want training in Liminal Realms? We don't really need it for anything we're doing.
 
Why do you want training in Liminal Realms? We don't really need it for anything we're doing.
Like most things Mathilde learns it does not have to be about what is useful but also about is interesting. Also the two known examples are the towers that "randomly " disappears and the floating castle in the badlands. I want Mathilde to one day create her own floating castle.

Edit also liminal realms may allow long range teleportation.
 
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I am using it a simile, like brave like a Lion, clever as a Fox, or in this case hooked like addict. Because Mathilde being able to create some of the most powerful items the colleges have is huge and potential profitable to Mathilde in political, financial and reputation.
Okay, but why does that require giving the first set away for free?
 
Why do you want training in Liminal Realms? We don't really need it for anything we're doing.
I'm not invested in it all that much, but I will admit it wouldn't be out of character for Mathilde. Drycha caught her slightly off guard by hiding in a liminal space, and if it wasn't for the Forest itself absolutely, utterly despising her and inflicting her with a -20 penalty, equivalent to an MMM, then she could have done some serious damage.

Although I'm not sure Mathilde realises that. Maybe she just thinks Drycha is some overrated punk who's a complete pushover everywhere that isn't her homeground. She certainly didn't make an impression.
 
Okay, but why does that require giving the first set away for free?
Donating for college favor better wording and reputation. When we had the rooms built it increased Mathilde's reputation among the colleges and has helped with experiments and train battle mages who would have died otherwise. These may very well break the college reputation similar to the dwarf reputation was.
 
Like most things Mathilde learns it does not have to be about what is useful but also about is interesting. Also the two known examples are the towers that "randomly " disappears and the floating castle in the badlands. I want Mathilde to one day create her own floating castle.
Sure it'd be neat to know but not really worth using up all the college favour we'd get from the Orbs of Sorcery to maybe get. And a floating castle isn't really worth that much when so much of what Mathilde has is firmly attached to Karak 8 Peaks and Belegar - her towers, the library, everyone she knows that lives there...

If we're doing the Orb of Sorcery plan we should do it for somehting concrete, not something that's as ephemeral as the chance of meeting Teclis when we go to Nagarythe.
 
Perhaps I'm completely misinterpreting the way College politics work, but it feels very rude to just go deliver the Morbs to each Patriarch (or even to the Supreme Patriarch). We should at the very least start with Algard, and I think we should in fact be delivering all 8 to him.
Receiving that kind of stuff and picking how it's used/distributed is literally his job. Mathilde is a Lady Magister, but she's not Matriarch and she probably shouldn't be undermining the current one unless she actually wants to commit to that sort of plan.

I do, however, want to do the Morbs as soon as possible. Mathilde is going to be incredibly smug when she finishes, it'll be great. And I really want to see how she involves Eike in the process!
 
Random question: Do we have any idea how long it would have been before the Runic Array of the Karaz Ankor ran out of power, and the runes of Valaya failed?
 
I very much think we should be slamming the Orbs (still refusing to call them "morbs") on Algard's desk.

1) He's our direct superior
2) He knows we're legit and not some sort demon possessed dark sorcerer
3) Algard headpats are premium headpats. I don't want headpats from Tall Lady or Feldspar, I want one from Grand Grey Wizard Dad.
4) He gets to share in our gigaflex by going to Dragomas and the other college Patriarchs/Matriarchs afterwards and saying "look how cool my magisters are. Are your magisters as cool? Of course not. Clearly we're the best college" Only, you know, subtly and indirectly. Basically we're giving him the chance to smug it up in front of the other colleges after surprising him in private.
 
Thorgrm hasn't even said that there was even a problem in the first place.
I meant "we" in the out-of-character sense, but probably should have been clearer.
There's nothing in the Thorgrim section that indicates anything.

All we know is that it was draining for 180 years and isn't anymore.
That's what I thought, but I know I sometimes miss things and people like Codex and Pickle exist with nigh-encyclopedic knowledge of the DL canon.
 
Before turning stones to Morbs I'd like for Mathilda to find a way to dim the Primordial Wind-light of the Morb transformation for her viewing pleasure.

Based on how her perception of the Waystones and especially tributaries work, it seems to be an issue of differences of magnitude. If we were to sufficiently saturate the surroundings with Winds, I wonder if the comparative brightness of the AV transformation may be lesser and so more perceivable.

Of course, sufficient saturation could reach dangerous levels of Winds to the point where reality starts bleeding, or staring at that magnitude of Winds could be like staring into the sun. The second part might not be an issue considering we seemed fine staring at the currents of Winds in the sky up north, but this would definitely need testing.

Also, going to the colleges with "hey I think I've got a way to make orbs of sorcery, can I get some power stones" might be better than "hey I made orbs of sorcery for all 8 colleges, discovered a new miracle liquid, and found a way to make Runelords very happy" out of the blue. Remember when we did the Queekish flex and we're tested for Demon possession?

Yeah.

No way, I want to walk into Algard's office and tell the chump to get out his pathetic Daemon checking orb, because our orbs are about to blow his freaking mind.

My friend, I'm not sure how to tell you this, but you never give away something for free. You squeeze as much value out of your work as you can. And, as with all negotiations, what you can get depends on how you present it.

If we present a full set of orbs to Dragomas, he can probably offer a singular really big thing for them. He has the authority for that. If we present them to all eight Magister Patriarchs, we might be able to negotiate eight smaller yet still impressive things, one for each orb. I'm sure there's lots of ways this can be approached.

In order of personal preference, here's some things I hope we could get:
  1. Knowledge from the Ambers and the Jades on how their respective 'seemingly-intelligent-constructs-that-are-proooobably-Apparitions' work. We can improve upon what the Golds have, and there's few other things of similar magnitude
  2. Creation and supplying of the Seviroscope, to further examine AV.
  3. ALL the College books that we don't already have. Would save us a lot of time and let us focus the library budget on more mundane stuff.
  4. Outfitting WEB-MAT with state-of-the-art tools for studying things? This was one of the things offered when Feldmann came along knocking for the Skaven artefacts. But it might overlap with the facilities we already have in Laurelorn, so ehhh.
  5. I'm sure we could get the full collaboration of the remaining Orders for the Waystone project, but we're definitely near a "too many cooks" situation so it's not nearly as useful as the idea was back when we were only a Magister.
I get the feeling further orb sets, or individual ones, would probably be negotiated for less, but they would still be very valuable. Similarly, I'm sure there's interested Magisters or Lord Magisters that might wish to obtain AV for their own purposes, to see if we've overlooked anything or if they can weaponize them in their own ways.

Maybe we can get an arrangement similar to the one we currently have with Runelords - AV for Favors, or enchantments.


Mathilde was flattered that she got tested for demon possession because it demonstrated how impressive what she did was. Surprising the Sigmar out of the Colleges is not a bad thing.

...And, this is a long shot, but it's vaguely possible that this could end up making Lord Hatalath see Mathilde as someone to actually take seriously. Maybe unlock the mythical Elf Favor?

I kind of assumed we'd just get a few hundred College favour or something, say 50 per Orb for 400 total, but between what happened with Dwarf favour and as has been pointed out the (former) uniqueness of the orbs, a one-off special reward does sound more likely. Maybe both?

So, thinking about practicalities for a minute, we'd need an event that had all the colleges heads assembled, possibly all the Lord Magisters too, ideally. Do we think we've got enough credit with the supreme patriarch to get a moment before or after the college challenges? Otherwise we might need to have Heidi ask the emperor to call the relevant parties together- political flex as the opening move?

I was thinking we go to Algard first, then enlist his and the rest of the Grey Colleges help in completing the gigaflex on the rest of the Colleges. Well I assume Boney will narrow down the options when the time comes and we'll vote on it.
 
Well, presumably we could tell him, in much the same way we enticed Thorek to want to work with us on the matter - it was useful to him. Like I said though, it's a long shot. It's also possible there's military uses to AV that would be more obvious to Hatalath than to us, in which case we may wish to avoid risks and never bring it up.
Ah, you were talking about AV as a whole. I thought you were talking about just the creation of Orbs of Sorcery. Still don't think it'll open up favour, but that's mostly because I'm pretty sure the Eonir have their own source.

We actually do not know if it is codifying or not. But with a Randal coin anything is possible. Right now Algard is the greatest living expert the colleges have and really the only known available option for Mathilde to not have to spend a lifetime doing research.
If it was codified, Mathilde wouldn't need Algard to learn it, it'd just be in the spellbook. It's not, so it's not codified. And in fact, in-quest other Wizards never codify spells, because it would be an unreasonable demand on Boney's time to simulate that in the background.

Random question: Do we have any idea how long it would have been before the Runic Array of the Karaz Ankor ran out of power, and the runes of Valaya failed?
Well, we know it's been draining for longer than Thorgrim was King. We also know that K8P alone being readded to the system fixed the problem. Either the fall of Dum and Vlag in the 2300s caused the system to tip into a death spiral, or it's been a very long death spiral since Silver Pinnacle fell in -326. It depends partially on if every Karak provides the same amount of power, and draws the same amount or not.

We don't have a concrete timeline though, nor do we know what actions could have been taken to slow it or speed it. Based on Thorgrim's thoughts though, I'd say that less than four centuries would be a fair guess.
 
Random question: Do we have any idea how long it would have been before the Runic Array of the Karaz Ankor ran out of power, and the runes of Valaya failed?

Reading between the lines, the Runes of Valaya probably only had a couple of centuries left in them. Thorgrim comments at one point that he will be the "Last High King" of the Karaz Ankor, suggesting that they would fail before he can die and pass on the crown to an Heir. The fact that he hasn't even appointed an heir, 180 years after ascending, lends further evidence to this belief.

Now dwarf lifespans can be incredibly variable, especially when they've got something to live for, but Thorgrim strikes me as the sort of Dwarf who'd very easily hit five to six centuries. I don't know his actual age, but he was born in the "early 23rd century"—roughly 2200IC. That puts him at between 250-300 years old at the moment (making him a "Greatbeard"). That gives him about 300 years left to live, assuming my estimate of his total lifespan is correct, and suggests that he believed the Runes of Valaya would fail before then.
 
Reading between the lines, the Runes of Valaya probably only had a couple of centuries left in them. Thorgrim comments at one point that he will be the "Last High King" of the Karaz Ankor, suggesting that they would fail before he can die and pass on the crown to an Heir. The fact that he hasn't even appointed an heir, 180 years after ascending, lends further evidence to this belief.
Far as I know he isn't even married, which is pretty unusual for the ruler of the Karaz Ankor.
 
Only, you know, subtly and indirectly.

Eh... I'd really like it for Mathilde to present the orbs to the LMs - no problem with surprising Algard first but I do feel the orbs go a bit beyond Algard in a way that say Queekish or pulling a Karak out of the warp doesn't.

The Orbs are Mathilde's (current best) shot at going beyond the 'average' LM (insofar as any LM can be said to be average) and into the Volans tier of legendary wizardry.

Before we get too full of ourselves, I expect pretty much any Lordy/Lady Magister worthy of the rank is going to have their own gigaflex-moments they can point to with a raised eyebrow and knowing look.

"How many hellcannon foundries have you destroyed/slave revolts engendered/wibbly-wobbly-Timed, again?"

That's Vlag; or helping reconquer K8P or the Waagh lectures or codifying the RoW spell - stuff that's really impressive but not like an universal flex. The Orbs are the sort of accomplishment that will get Mathilde recognised as the Best Wizard even by LM standards.
 
Ah, you were talking about AV as a whole. I thought you were talking about just the creation of Orbs of Sorcery. Still don't think it'll open up favour, but that's mostly because I'm pretty sure the Eonir have their own source.


If it was codified, Mathilde wouldn't need Algard to learn it, it'd just be in the spellbook. It's not, so it's not codified. And in fact, in-quest other Wizards never codify spells, because it would be an unreasonable demand on Boney's time to simulate that in the background.


Well, we know it's been draining for longer than Thorgrim was King. We also know that K8P alone being readded to the system fixed the problem. Either the fall of Dum and Vlag in the 2300s caused the system to tip into a death spiral, or it's been a very long death spiral since Silver Pinnacle fell in -326. It depends partially on if every Karak provides the same amount of power, and draws the same amount or not.

We don't have a concrete timeline though, nor do we know what actions could have been taken to slow it or speed it. Based on Thorgrim's thoughts though, I'd say that less than four centuries would be a fair guess.
The mention of Akriksson dying of wounds he should have recovered from suggests to me that it started with Dum and Vlag going away.
 
Far as I know he isn't even married, which is pretty unusual for the ruler of the Karaz Ankor.

Belegar made some fairly depressing comments on why he's not married with kids—I imagine Thorgrim holds the same attitude at least ten times over.

He nods. "As am I. The only downside is that now my Clan is pushing more than ever for me to get married, and I've run out of reasons why not to."

"Does the thought terrify you so?"

"Of a wife? Not so much. But of having children I could fail... that scares me more than anything. There's been times over the years where I've drawn great comfort that if I failed, I've failed no worse than a great many of my ancestors. But the thought of having children to pass the crown to, children I might fail to pass the crown to..." He shakes his head. "The price of climbing higher, it seems, is that it gives you further to fall."

Thorgrim knew that he would fail his children, that there would be no crown to pass on to them. Belegar merely feared that would happen.

Thankfully, both of them seem to be in a happier place right now.
 
The mention of Akriksson dying of wounds he should have recovered from suggests to me that it started with Dum and Vlag going away.
It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that them going away was net neutral. They were no longer sending power, but they no longer needed power either.

And Alriksson dying of his wounds doesn't necessarily mean it began then, just that he felt the same despair as Thorgrim felt. Plus, we know that power reserves were falling before then, although we don't know if the Runes were failing yet.
 
It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that them going away was net neutral. They were no longer sending power, but they no longer needed power either.

And Alriksson dying of his wounds doesn't necessarily mean it began then, just that he felt the same despair as Thorgrim felt. Plus, we know that power reserves were falling before then, although we don't know if the Runes were failing yet.
We know the power supply was below what was necessary to power the other Great Works, we don't know if it was below what was necessary for the Runes of Valaya before Vlag and Dum.

And I don't think Vlag or Dum could be neutral or drains, at that point it wouldn't make sense that the Great Works were ever powered at all if having a hold attached to the network isn't a net positive.
 
It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that them going away was net neutral. They were no longer sending power, but they no longer needed power either.
The fact that Thorgrim reacted to their return by using the surplus energy to activate a great work seems to clearly indicate their reconnection was a net positive - and the fact Vlag had any dwarves left at all strongly suggests that its Karak-Rune of Valaya held up even while it was gone (Dum is less so, as Cor-Dum may actually be capable of protecting them in place of Valaya).
 
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