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Sounds extremely unlikely. These folks are high on victory, and they will be flat out told that the Expedition ends, and thus they will be paid, when we take the Citadel in, oh, twelve hours.
I agree with all of that!
As long as we attack today, the Citadel should be ours in twelve hours.
Today, they are high on victory and last nights revelry and camaraderie.

Tomorrow is another day. Waiting for it, for One Big Spell, seems unnecessarily cavalier to Expedition success to me, as I've explained.
 
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@Neshuakadal things would have to wrong at pretty much every turn for us to not to be able to exploit any of those scenarios.

Sounds extremely unlikely. These folks are high on victory, and they will be flat out told that the Expedition ends, and thus they will be paid, when we take the Citadel in, oh, twelve hours.
It's the totally-not-a-person alive-hit-squad idea.
How would you exploit a steam of orcs and goblins rushing into the citadel? How would we learn of skaven attack in time to contest it? You really can't say we can easy exploit those things happening and then just drop it there.

Let's discuss those exploits you clearly have in mind. I for one would love to know if they are feasible or if you are just blowing hot air trying to make the argument go away.
 
This is not how feudal oaths work. Typically a feudal overlord can call upon knights for specific amounts of military service per year or (in some systems) specific amounts of money per year, paid instead of military service at the knight's option. She can't ask us to do anything other than military service via any kind of feudal obligation, and even then there's a good chance that we could toss her like 20g instead of showing up and it would be a complete fulfillment of our legal responsibilities.

The Empire isn't actually a feudal society though. Importantly different is that the Empire has a standing army, not just a militia and some knights. We aren't responsible for raising troops, because Stirland has troops, that's what the army is for.
 
What type is a normal acid though. What acids effect and they do to the material is as diverse as the acids and what they effect.

Normal acids, to my knowledge, act by stripping apart molecules by acting as a more attractive option. So burning shadow is likely stripping things apart at a molecular level. Fire does much the same thing. Using heat to release chemical energy to release more heat.

If burning shadow rips things apart at a molecular level than the chemical energy would leave as well since the molecul holding it is gone. Since burning shadows is not adding another substance, that I know of, for the now free atoms to connect to and form new molecules no chemical energy can be stored in the now free floating atoms. This would severally hurt fires ability to spread as both burning shadow and fire are breaking apart molecules yet only fire seems to be generating heat from it. The burning part of burning shadows seems to be from how it feels to be under it's affect not from any heat it generates.
There are lots of ifs involved, but the mechanism by which acids act is generally the same, the differences would be on the end products.
The end products of wood, depending on a lot of things, would be things like sugars and charcoal, which are actually much better fuel than wood.
So, worst case, if the heat is actually gone, we have things that burn better and faster than wood.
Best case, it builds up heat and the place burns ultra fast.
Best best case? it all happens so fast that the place explodes.
 
@BoneyM, just want to say, I've been rereading the update and I really love the Khazalid linguistic bits. I've been picking apart the words and Mathilde's translations of them using this page and you did a really great job putting stuff together.

Like this bit:
You smile at their half-hearted squabbling. They're obviously disgruntled by the lack of glory, and you think back to your first 'battle'. "First time I saw combat, I had just been made Journeyman. I was exploring my Count's-" you see the confusion on their faces, and translate. "My Thane's castle, to ensure that the previous Thane had left it secure." They nod at that. "What I didn't expect was that there was a zombie- Uzkularit?" You look to Skaroki.

"That's skeleton. Uzkulikar."

"It had been trapped for a long time, so it was slow enough that I was able to dodge it. I had never trained with a weapon, but I used magic to make armour for myself - Mhornzhufklad. And while it was trying to scratch through that, I stabbed it in the face with a dagger." You're pleased to get twin chuckles from your audience. "After that, I learned how to use a sword. Next battle was proper Uzkulari... Wights?" You look to Skaroki again.

"Kalanuzkular."

"
And a few years after that, I was fighting a zangunaz called the Singing King, whose skull I've still got back home. And now here I am at Vala-Azril-Ungol, with two Urk Warbosses to my tally. Start slowly, like an avalanche."
Picking apart the words for zombie, skeleton, general undead, and then wights and figuring out why they were structured that way was great fun to the huge nerd side of me that loves random intellectual puzzle projects like this. I particularly loved how "wight" is "clan undead" which reflects their nature so very well.

Although I still have not puzzled out "huzkul" I think I've got the rest of them and it's been a really entertaining half hour or so poking at this project. Thanks for being excellent.
 
Sounds extremely unlikely. These folks are high on victory, and they will be flat out told that the Expedition ends, and thus they will be paid, when we take the Citadel in, oh, twelve hours.
I think 12 hours are not an issue, but 2 extre hours of the assault on dwarven fortress orked by black orks very much are. High spirits and hangover overweight that issue, but for how long?
 
I agree with all of that!
As long as we attack today, the Citadel should be ours in twelve hours.
Today, they are high on victory and last nights revelry and camaraderie.

Tomorrow is another day. Waiting for it, for One Big Spell, seems unnecessarily cavalier to Expedition success to me, as I've explained.
The day will be halfway over by the time most people are up and about. They flat out do not have the time to lose morale, because they will be hitting the hay early to get up before dawn for the final push the next day.

It's ridiculous to the point of absurdity to say that one lazy afternoon is all it takes for people on maxed morale to go outright multinous.

Ir our spell for some reason fails, and the recast also fails, we will still largely accomplish the same thing. Because the plan with the spell also includes what does the majority of work on the plan without it.
 
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It's ridiculous to the point of absurdity to say that one lazy afternoon is all it takes for people on maxed morale to go outright multinous.
We're asking - not ordering, because we can't order that - people to risk an extra 20-30% chance of death once more for the good of it. Normal answer to that is "fuck no" - it's just right now they are okay with it because of extra high morale.
 
How would you exploit a steam of orcs and goblins rushing into the citadel? How would we learn of skaven attack in time to contest it? You really can't say we can easy exploit those things happening and then just drop it there.

Let's discuss those exploits you clearly have in mind. I for one would love to know if they are feasible or if you are just blowing hot air trying to make the argument go away.
Mostly exploit the distraction and sweep both sides away.

We were always going to assault the fortress, if others are going to do us a favor and throw themselves upon its walls while we strike the unguarded rear, that's not so bad.

And this is a worst case scenario anyway.
 
We're asking - not ordering, because we can't order that - people to risk an extra 20-30% chance of death once more for the good of it. Normal answer to that is "fuck no" - it's just right now they are okay with it because of extra high morale.
They get paid when the Expedition is over. That's what they signed up for. The Expedition is over when Belegar says its over, and he says its over by lunch tomorrow, after we take the Citadel.

How many times do I have to highlight they are at maximum morale?
 
Congratulations, you are splitting the vote for nothing, on top of putting the Rangers inside a flaming, melting Grobi Town, and having Panoramia cast her Ghyran spell on top of our Ulgu spell.

Burning Shadows does most of what you want.
It also does at least three major things I don't want, and approval voting means vote splits don't matter as long as you vote for everything you are fine with winning.

Burning Shadows as it is has one nice thing and three things that make it not worthwhile
 
If waiting for the right time, is why others don't want to cast burning shadows, why not just create a artificial shadow, using shades blankets or tents
 
Mostly exploit the distraction and sweep both sides away.

We were always going to assault the fortress, if others are going to do us a favor and throw themselves upon its walls while we strike the unguarded rear, that's not so bad.

And this is a worst case scenario anyway.
So you want to wake men and dwarfs that are resting and preparing for an early morning assault in order to try and intervene? I didn't know you liked ground meat so much. Remember the goal of this vote is to create a plan that separates the goblins in the caldera from the goblins and orcs in the citadel. If the goblins in the caldera are attacking the citadel than the goal has failed already and we will likely end up fighting a great deal more than we wanted to.

If you want to wait until one side has victory to attack than we may end up waiting for far longer than 18 hours and miss the dead line for using burning shadows anyway. Minus the fact that there may be even more baddies in the citadel if the caldera goblins win.

I really don't know how you think prepping for a early morning attack and still be able to quickly react to a change in the situation is possible.
 
There are lots of ifs involved, but the mechanism by which acids act is generally the same, the differences would be on the end products.
The end products of wood, depending on a lot of things, would be things like sugars and charcoal, which are actually much better fuel than wood.
So, worst case, if the heat is actually gone, we have things that burn better and faster than wood.
Best case, it builds up heat and the place burns ultra fast.
Best best case? it all happens so fast that the place explodes.
Not if burning shadows is ripping everything apart. Most acids are limited to the atoms they attract. Burning shadows is not limited in that way. What we could have left is just free floating atoms. Fire can't burn free floating atoms.
 
[X] Plan Burning Shadows

Another option is to, after we laze upon it like a dragon for a bit, gift the entire, or a part, of the sum to the college. The Grey Order will always find a way to use sums of money to expand its intelligence network. And it may very well alleviate some of the more probing questions to be asked. Or may very well create more because they are that paranoid.
If you want gold to go to the college, I'd prefer to just spend it on lessons as Boney has said we can do, which lets us save all the College favor and take advantage of all the resources it possesses as an institution.
 
So you want to wake men and dwarfs that are resting and preparing for an early morning assault in order to try and intervene? I didn't know you liked ground meat so much. Remember the goal of this vote is to create a plan that separates the goblins in the caldera from the goblins and orcs in the citadel. If the goblins in the caldera are attacking the citadel than the goal has failed already and we will likely end up fighting a great deal more than we wanted to.

If you want to wait until one side has victory to attack than we may end up waiting for far longer than 18 hours and miss the dead line for using burning shadows anyway. Minus the fact that there may be even more baddies in the citadel if the caldera goblins win.

I really don't know how you think prepping for a early morning attack and still be able to quickly react to a change in the situation is possible.
Early morning attacks are a staple of warfare, if they are not going to wake up early for the assault I would question whether they know anything of battle at all.
 
Not if burning shadows is ripping everything apart. Most acids are limited to the atoms they attract. Burning shadows is not limited in that way. What we could have left is just free floating atoms. Fire can't burn free floating atoms.
Specially if they are ripping everything apart, and fire, fire fucking loves free floating atoms. God, what would fire give to have free floating atoms, that whole valley would be covered with the remains of vaporized greenskins if we were lucky enough to get free floating atoms.
 
So, money-spending ideas.

Furnishing a laboratory and library in Karak Eight Peaks could eat up quite a bit a cash, particularly if we pay for dwarf-quality equipment and don't hold back on optimizing it. It cost us quite a bit for just shoddy manling enchanting gear, getting dwarf specialists to build our new wizard's lab materials could probably eat a thousand gold or so. This is a direct investment in wizarding and would not even need a loophole.

Paying for classes in the Grey College at the estimated 100g/action slot will add up very quickly, and can easily absorb a few thousand if we want to master the rest of the spellbook, get the other five Enchanting perks, learn human-style runes/runecraft, learn power stone creation and use, learn ritual magic principles and whatever ritual spells the Grey College knows... we could easily be talking three to five turns of nothing but taking classes, or several times that if we're hanging out in the Empire and doing things other than self-improvement. I think it would be well worth the investment of money and time, because Mathilde should be putting time into polishing her skills as a wizard to the best they can be. Again, this is a direct investment in Mathilde's wizard skills which is permitted under the vow of poverty.

Paying off our debt to Stirland is obvious, and while it's not financially sensible from Mathilde's perspective, we do know that the administration of Stirland is really hurting for cash, or at least were recently. On that score paying our debt is less something to be done for Mathilde herself and more something done for the good of one of the Empire's provinces, so I think the Grey College would consider it a good investment.

Using the cash as a seed for expansion of military-related businesses (niter factories, etc.) would be a very worthwhile investment financially and in terms of producing useful industries in the Empire, though it would require a fair bit of Mathilde's time to actually start those up (and we might want to finish studying economics if we're going into serious trader's nonsense). The Greys would probably frown on this investment unless Mathilde can clearly demonstrate its utility for the good of the Empire and show how the profits from the business are not being used to give her a large personal cashflow, because Grey Wizards are explicitly NOT supposed to be building up personal income streams and "oh I have another legal entity for this" only goes so far. If we can sell it, though, there's a lot of potential here. We may wish to ensure that whatever we build/invest in reverts to the Grey College upon our death so that they have a vested interest in our success; Mathilde has no other heir, after all.

Using the cash as a seed for expansion of non-military-related business (casinos, etc.) would be a worthwhile investment financially... but ultimately I don't think that we can sell it successfully to the Grey College. It's just not accomplishing anything that the Greys want accomplished and unless we have "this is serving the Empire's interests" pretty clearly backing up whatever income loophole we want, it's not going to fly.

Investing in our fief is a poor choice unless we're just blatantly trying to burn cash. It's not a high expected return on investment and there's no reason that Mathilde would want to live there instead of the Grey College campus, her underground palace, or Karak Eight Peaks, all of which have much nicer things going for them.

Purchasing property with interesting magical properties (meaning high ulgu concentrations or waystones or something) for eventual poking at or building a branch campus on could be worthwhile. The Haunted Hills have probably all been sold off by Roswita by now for a quick infusion of cash, but it's doubtful their new owners have had time to do anything useful with them or even do more than complete a quick survey, so if there's anything there we can still look to snap it up. The Grey College supports poking at magical things (as all Colleges do) so once again, as long as we have "in the event of my death property reverts to the Grey College" on the ownership papers somewhere, they'll certainly support this usage of cash.

We could go back to Barak Varr and roll for curiosities again. Spend a month wandering the markets and something neat would certainly turn up. Admittedly it might not be something neat that we could use, but someone will be able to use most of what we find. And we might fish up useful enchanting components and such again.

Investing in a dwarf business might be possible with our level of rep. Imagine the possibility of, say, putting up the cash for construction of a heavy gyrocopter and then the pay for its pilot on a Karak Eight Peaks-(anywhere else) route? We know that they're already planning to do that using existing resources but being the owner of an aircraft could probably be a substantial source of income over time and a very convenient source of personal transit in a pinch. Ditto any other business, though those might be less fun. With Karak Eight Peaks being just now re-established, King Belegar would probably be very glad of any investment in his economy even if it comes from a manling. This is likely to be somewhat less objectionable than generic investment in the Empire's businesses to the Grey College because it doubles as a form of diplomatic outreach and lasting influence in Karak Eight Peaks, both of which are things that they want.


The Empire isn't actually a feudal society though. Importantly different is that the Empire has a standing army, not just a militia and some knights. We aren't responsible for raising troops, because Stirland has troops, that's what the army is for.
If we're not responsible for raising troops or providing military service personally then in what capacity does the Elector Count have the ability to order her vassals to do anything other than pay taxes (which are presumably what is done instead of providing direct military service, and used to support that standing army) and obey the laws (which will not include "Elector Count can order whatever they want" clauses because the nobility would rebel)?
 
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Early morning attacks are a staple of warfare, if they are not going to wake up early for the assault I would question whether they know anything of battle at all.
That problem is not waking up for an early morning assault. That is a complete misread of the conversation. The problem is trying to force men who are not prepared. Who do not have their armor on or equipment ready into a quick march and fight fast enough to intervene with the citadel if the situation changes in the 18 hours between now and when burning shadows wants to fight.
 
That problem is not waking up for an early morning assault. That is a complete misread of the conversation. The problem is trying to force men who are not prepared. Who do not have their armor on or equipment ready into a quick march and fight fast enough to intervene with the citadel if the situation changes in the 18 hours between now and when burning shadows wants to fight.
Thats a very generous time frame, again, these are supposed to be soldiers.
 
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