Sure... but the same is true of Imperial civil wars and the world has survived half a millennia of that. The planet is not going to fall to chaos if this parting patch of land suffers strife for a few decades, it will inevitably do so if no one fixes the waystone network, that is what is at stake here.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Sure... but the same is true of Imperial civil wars and the world has survived half a millennia of that. The planet is not going to fall to chaos if this parting patch of land suffers strife for a few decades, it will inevitably do so if no one fixes the waystone network, that is what is at stake here.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
We'll have a piece of paper that will prevent Alric from shutting down the project directly, not one that will stop him from knowing about it.
Ok, who would tell him? The emperor? Doubtful. The light wizards? Those are loyal to Mira. Dragomas? Couldn't care less.
Well I mean yeah, but you should keep in mind that Alric is also subject to the emperor, so he could be ordered to keep it to himself should be find out on pain of death by whatever the Emperor feels like throwing at him.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
The Light Wizards are, in fact, explicitly not loyal to Mira. Elrisse is neutral on the whole Light Order faction split.
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
This made me wince. Goddamn memetic hazards.
Ok then why would she tell either. As soon as we have a imperial writ she doesn't need to tell anyone. So what's the reason that she would run to either after we got one?
- Location
- Utrecht
Engrimm is loyal to whoever is Not Alric though.
Which in this case is Mira.
I think we should go to Dragomas.
Because everybody rushing to totally avoid Alric like he's a bighuge problem that will raise a stink or something, should probably keep something in mind; the Emperor is not a Wizard and doesn't know what we are working on right now, and would be first introduced to it, and we'd have to convince him this is all important and should be hush-hush and that we went over the other Wizards' heads too.
Dragomas and the other Wizard leaders know that we are working on Waystones. We politicked with them to get their support for this. Well, the Patriarchs and Matriarchs know about our Waystone project, I don't recall off the top of my head if we told Dragomas first? But anyway.
The point is, the Patriarchs and Matriarchs have a feel for how important Waystone business is, and also know that we were already doing this.
If we talk to them and Dragomas first, they can even back us up when it comes to explaining to the Emperor why he should allow us to do this.
Another issue might be the fact that if we go to the Emperor, we might have to use a Great Deed for this. Whereas if we go to Dragomas first, then the Supreme Patriarch can be in our corner and explaining to the Emperor why he should let this Wizard Lord do this.
So yeah. Instead of being so spooked by one guy -- Alric -- that we decide to avoid Dragomas and the other Patriarchs and Matriarchs, we should instead get the Colleges of Magic to back us for our talk with the Emperor.
There is strength in presenting the Emperor a united front for Wizard business. As opposed to just asking him as a singular Wizard Lord, who's friends with his wife, for this.
Because everybody rushing to totally avoid Alric like he's a bighuge problem that will raise a stink or something, should probably keep something in mind; the Emperor is not a Wizard and doesn't know what we are working on right now, and would be first introduced to it, and we'd have to convince him this is all important and should be hush-hush and that we went over the other Wizards' heads too.
Dragomas and the other Wizard leaders know that we are working on Waystones. We politicked with them to get their support for this. Well, the Patriarchs and Matriarchs know about our Waystone project, I don't recall off the top of my head if we told Dragomas first? But anyway.
The point is, the Patriarchs and Matriarchs have a feel for how important Waystone business is, and also know that we were already doing this.
If we talk to them and Dragomas first, they can even back us up when it comes to explaining to the Emperor why he should allow us to do this.
Another issue might be the fact that if we go to the Emperor, we might have to use a Great Deed for this. Whereas if we go to Dragomas first, then the Supreme Patriarch can be in our corner and explaining to the Emperor why he should let this Wizard Lord do this.
So yeah. Instead of being so spooked by one guy -- Alric -- that we decide to avoid Dragomas and the other Patriarchs and Matriarchs, we should instead get the Colleges of Magic to back us for our talk with the Emperor.
There is strength in presenting the Emperor a united front for Wizard business. As opposed to just asking him as a singular Wizard Lord, who's friends with his wife, for this.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hmmm, I'd vastly prefer Supreme Patriarch except for how it gives Alric a tool to use against us. Still feels wrong to go over his head, and he is pretty positively inclined toward this project and likely to give dispensation without requiring us expending political capital. We don't have much built up with the Emperor, and I frankly don't have a great read on him.
So, how worried are we actually about this? What could Alric do with this information if he cared only about his political goals? Would he even be able to share it with others? Or maybe just those with a high enough security clearance? If he could, he could throw mud on the Project in general, and especially Mira's contributions to it, to weaken her position. What about the other Heads? Would this cause them to maybe distance themselves from the possible political bomb?
Kinda wish we had a read on what the others think, especially Elrisse and Egrimm, they would probably have a more keen understanding of what Alric would or could do.
So, how worried are we actually about this? What could Alric do with this information if he cared only about his political goals? Would he even be able to share it with others? Or maybe just those with a high enough security clearance? If he could, he could throw mud on the Project in general, and especially Mira's contributions to it, to weaken her position. What about the other Heads? Would this cause them to maybe distance themselves from the possible political bomb?
Kinda wish we had a read on what the others think, especially Elrisse and Egrimm, they would probably have a more keen understanding of what Alric would or could do.
- Location
- Canada
As per word of Boney the Emperor does not have to follow the same procedures that Dragomas does:
It's explicit here
If we go straight to Luitpold and he gives us the go ahead then nobody else need be informed
As per Article 1 obedience to the rightfully elected Emperor comes before obedience to the Colleges
If we get a dispensation from the emperor it's presumably classed as need to know. Alric doesn't.
Being higher up in the hierarchy does not imply a right to know, especially if the top of the chain (Emperor) says he doesn't. He might find out once things are all settled with the project one way or another, but if he tries to stick his oar in mid-project then telling him to talk to the Emperor if he wants to be read in is entirely appropriate.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I am operating on the assumption that all our College Wizards (and in fact all of our participants in general) are going to be more loyal to their home institution than to this task force we set up a month ago.
The emperor is not an idiot. I doubt he doesn't know what a waystones is or what it does. Probably not how it does that but hey, that's our job. And if he wants a better explanation he can call his house wizard, chap by the name of dragomas, beastly fellow.
I wasn't saying the dhar removal is the most important thing the Waystones do. But it is A thing that the Waystones do. And that as a result, I think a lack of ambient dhar is a "problem" defined by succeeding exceptionally well.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The name means Max Exampleperson. It's the German equivalent of John Doe. I assume the other names are the same for the various peoples.Shoulda been Oswald Oswaldsons
No it's not. The first secret of DHar is how to build stable spells out of it. This is more akin to how the Skaven guns work, taking advantage of a useful property of Dhar to do non-Dhar things.
People have been to Albion before. They're just generally dismissed as fools or lunatics. It could be that the Elves just believe those people. Or they have maps that predate Albion's hiding. Or the Grey Lords have some way of detecting stuff through the Network and relasied Albion is hooked up so there must be something there.
They could do, but I don't think they're the sort to actually care, so I doubt whatever Waystones they originally had are still intact. More likely they've become some form of altar to Hashut at this point.
The Articles were written by magnus, with the advice of a bunch of people, of whom Teclis was only one. They were written for good reason, and largely concern themselves with making Wizardry a tool of the Empire, and one that cannot be used to destroy that which the Colleges were formed to protect. Only one Article restricts the ability to study magic, and that's the one that prevents the study of dark magic, necromancy and the lores of the daemonic powers. That's less "you're children" and more plain sense, especially considering evidence has proven that people who mess around with that stuff go mad.
I wonder if this is genuinely a consequence of that. I wouldn't be surprised if Mathilde uses this phrase now due to that incident, rather than something else.
If you're going to the Emperor anyway, could always get a "shut the hell up about this aspect" order too.
Most waystones probably don't collect that much dhar. Like yes it's a problem when it happens but waystones can't stop geheimnisnacht.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
You make the assumptions here and actually ignore some of the possibilites we have investigated. Remember when we tried Ulgu Tongs? There was Dhar but we have channeled none of it tough ourselves so it was rather safe with only ambient dhar having any effect at all. Prehaps High magic is advanced form of it where you use 8 winds so it creates dhar in some sort of shell that dhar is never released.
Granted humasn still can't use it since Marks but even if not, dhar might be part of the casting and keeping winds together as a last step.
Also High Elves and Slaan both are rather narcisstic. Take that as you will.
- Location
- Utrecht
I'm more worried that it might give Alric a weapon against Mira.
Once Alric ousts her again, he may or may not withdraw his wizards, but the damage to the Light Order would be done.
Once Alric ousts her again, he may or may not withdraw his wizards, but the damage to the Light Order would be done.
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yes:
Emperor is 3 ranks above patriarch if we get secret dispensation she doesn't have to tell Alric anything.
Leaving aside the Heidi-Alric angle, this reasoning seems sound to me.
The Waystone Project represents an opportunity of extremely far-reaching proportions if it works, but in the other scale we have potentially disastrous consequences for the colleges.
Mathilde is a grey wizard, who is not very discreet about being a worshipper of Ranald. Even with her antagonism towards sigmarites not being a known thing, she is a highly suspicious character by default. If we are going to semi-publicly waltz into murky waters, we want to do things by the book to allay suspicions of impropriety.
Enhanced scrutiny is more or less inevitable at this point, but we don't want to be so actively suspicious that people start actively investigating us in-depth. To borrow from the Doctor, Mathilde knows things, secrets that must never be told and knowledge that must never be spoken. Better to keep third party noses out of that.
So, yeah, I am thinking that we let the patriarch make the call. He is the ranking expert.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
They certainly wouldn't have any Elven Waystones, they split off from the Karaz Ankor before those were ever put up.
I expect the continents with Elven Waystones are Naggaroth, Ulthuan, the Old World, and the Southlands (the northern part anyway).
You're still missing my point. My point is that I don't think we're running out of dhar and needing to make our own any time soon.
Now does that mean we should just ignore the Articles of Magic issue? Of course not.
...but we literally saw a waystones that had no dhar to work with and collected two winds to do it instead? I'm not getting your point...