Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Australia
After much thought, I've come up with opinions on whether we should replace our Candle of Cleansing Radiance and what we should replace it with.
Firstly, yes, I think we should replace it. We got it because at the time, chemical attack by Skryre was a real concern, but right now, chemical weapons and poison aren't as pressing concerns as other things. Someone else can get better use of it, I'm sure.
The single best thing we can replace it with is an item loaded up with Ferment so that we can make Stirlandian beer wherever we go. Sadly, because only Stirland has the proper facilities to fully enjoy it, this idea is impractical.
The second best thing we can replace it with is Starshine...but only for next turn, after which we permanently discard it for something else. It turns off invisibility and finds secret doors and the like, which makes it a pretty good thing for Drakenhof. After that, not worth it. If secrecy weren't a concern, it would've been better to simply hire a Celestial Magister. (Hubert doesn't know the spell.) As is though, Starshine's only 5 CF for the item and that's not bad for a single turn, given the potential rewards.
Illuminate the Edifice would also help, though naturally it'd take up Starshine's slot. It makes the whole building shine with daylight, making it easier to see, which could be of value in the Black Library. (The daylight would've been fantastic if it were still populated by vampires.) It's cheaper at 3 CF, so it'd be even easier to permanently discard once we're done with it. (Possibly 5 CF for the unlimited building size version.) However, unlike with Starshine, we know of a trustworthy light wizard to accompany us: Egrimm. He could cast the spell for us whether or not we pick up Starshine, and he can also watch our back down in the vampire capital of Sylvania.
For a permanent magic item to replace the Candle with, we gotta look at four broad categories of magical items: buff, debuff, kill, and utility. Mathilde's already strong in attack, defence, and healing, so no need for buff. For debuff, she's got Mistfying Miasma. Mathilde's got melee killiness with Branulhune and big killiness with the Dragonflask. That leaves utility.
I've identified two spells that'd be useful to have in our pocket: Wings of Heaven and Burning Vengeance. First gives flight, second causes the target to want to kill a specific other person for a year if they fail a will save. Now, flight is useful, but the mobility is mostly obsoleted by teleportation and Skywalk. Burning Vengeance has very situational use but we can cause some real havoc with it, pitting army leaders against each other or something. So Burning Vengeance is better for us, right? No. Wings of Heaven is better, by a lot.
While Burning Vengeance can be very powerful in the right circumstances, those circumstances are very rare. Not only that, but the will save is a big problem. Most of the people we want to use it on like vampires, warbosses, and wizards, they have strong wills. Skaven commanders might be vulnerable but they already all want to kill each other. For everyone else, risk-benefit mostly dictates an easy Branulhune assassination. Where Burning Vengeance truly shines is civil disruption: getting weak willed but politically powerful human nobles to feud with each other, but that's far from our wheelhouse.
Wings of Heaven on the other hand? Amazing. Perfect. If it were an animal, it would be a very pettable domestic rat. To start with, its specs: several minutes of non-mutative flight at faster-than-elf speeds for 3 CF. Is it obsoleted? Only a bit; Skywalk and Smoke and Mirrors have strong limitations, while Wings of Heaven has its own unique boons.
-Skywalk needs to be cast, and if we're casting it, we're not casting something else. It only lasts a few seconds, so we'd need to be casting it a lot to stay in the air for anything more than a brief length of time. We're also slower in the air, moving at our usual speed, and it gives us less movement possibilities than true flight.
-Smoke and Mirrors has the same casting exclusivity to an only slightly lesser extent. If we're casting it, we're not casting a Lesser Magic/Relatively Simple/Moderately Complicated spell - Skywalk included, which makes vertical movement clunky. The spell provides instant movement, but it's short ranged, so we'd need to chain cast Fiendishly Complex spells to move long distances with it. Finally, SnM can put us in the air but unlike SW and WoH, it can't keep us there.
-Wings of Heaven is great. We can combo it with SnM for easy mid-air teleportation (easier than SnM+SW), which is great in combat. We can glide across the ground to maintain its superior speed at ground level. It's neither magically nor physically tiring to use. Unlike SW and SnM, it can break our fall no matter our falling speed: a good safety precaution and enables certain feats like jumping out of our gyrocarriage whenever we want no matter its height. Finally, something that's valuable to me: it's excellent quality of life; true flight is very fun and Mathilde would get several minutes of it at a time.
So that's what I think: permanently replace the Candle of Cleansing Radiance with an item of Wings of Heaven, at a cost of 3 CF.
Firstly, yes, I think we should replace it. We got it because at the time, chemical attack by Skryre was a real concern, but right now, chemical weapons and poison aren't as pressing concerns as other things. Someone else can get better use of it, I'm sure.
The single best thing we can replace it with is an item loaded up with Ferment so that we can make Stirlandian beer wherever we go. Sadly, because only Stirland has the proper facilities to fully enjoy it, this idea is impractical.
The second best thing we can replace it with is Starshine...but only for next turn, after which we permanently discard it for something else. It turns off invisibility and finds secret doors and the like, which makes it a pretty good thing for Drakenhof. After that, not worth it. If secrecy weren't a concern, it would've been better to simply hire a Celestial Magister. (Hubert doesn't know the spell.) As is though, Starshine's only 5 CF for the item and that's not bad for a single turn, given the potential rewards.
Illuminate the Edifice would also help, though naturally it'd take up Starshine's slot. It makes the whole building shine with daylight, making it easier to see, which could be of value in the Black Library. (The daylight would've been fantastic if it were still populated by vampires.) It's cheaper at 3 CF, so it'd be even easier to permanently discard once we're done with it. (Possibly 5 CF for the unlimited building size version.) However, unlike with Starshine, we know of a trustworthy light wizard to accompany us: Egrimm. He could cast the spell for us whether or not we pick up Starshine, and he can also watch our back down in the vampire capital of Sylvania.
For a permanent magic item to replace the Candle with, we gotta look at four broad categories of magical items: buff, debuff, kill, and utility. Mathilde's already strong in attack, defence, and healing, so no need for buff. For debuff, she's got Mistfying Miasma. Mathilde's got melee killiness with Branulhune and big killiness with the Dragonflask. That leaves utility.
I've identified two spells that'd be useful to have in our pocket: Wings of Heaven and Burning Vengeance. First gives flight, second causes the target to want to kill a specific other person for a year if they fail a will save. Now, flight is useful, but the mobility is mostly obsoleted by teleportation and Skywalk. Burning Vengeance has very situational use but we can cause some real havoc with it, pitting army leaders against each other or something. So Burning Vengeance is better for us, right? No. Wings of Heaven is better, by a lot.
While Burning Vengeance can be very powerful in the right circumstances, those circumstances are very rare. Not only that, but the will save is a big problem. Most of the people we want to use it on like vampires, warbosses, and wizards, they have strong wills. Skaven commanders might be vulnerable but they already all want to kill each other. For everyone else, risk-benefit mostly dictates an easy Branulhune assassination. Where Burning Vengeance truly shines is civil disruption: getting weak willed but politically powerful human nobles to feud with each other, but that's far from our wheelhouse.
Wings of Heaven on the other hand? Amazing. Perfect. If it were an animal, it would be a very pettable domestic rat. To start with, its specs: several minutes of non-mutative flight at faster-than-elf speeds for 3 CF. Is it obsoleted? Only a bit; Skywalk and Smoke and Mirrors have strong limitations, while Wings of Heaven has its own unique boons.
-Skywalk needs to be cast, and if we're casting it, we're not casting something else. It only lasts a few seconds, so we'd need to be casting it a lot to stay in the air for anything more than a brief length of time. We're also slower in the air, moving at our usual speed, and it gives us less movement possibilities than true flight.
-Smoke and Mirrors has the same casting exclusivity to an only slightly lesser extent. If we're casting it, we're not casting a Lesser Magic/Relatively Simple/Moderately Complicated spell - Skywalk included, which makes vertical movement clunky. The spell provides instant movement, but it's short ranged, so we'd need to chain cast Fiendishly Complex spells to move long distances with it. Finally, SnM can put us in the air but unlike SW and WoH, it can't keep us there.
-Wings of Heaven is great. We can combo it with SnM for easy mid-air teleportation (easier than SnM+SW), which is great in combat. We can glide across the ground to maintain its superior speed at ground level. It's neither magically nor physically tiring to use. Unlike SW and SnM, it can break our fall no matter our falling speed: a good safety precaution and enables certain feats like jumping out of our gyrocarriage whenever we want no matter its height. Finally, something that's valuable to me: it's excellent quality of life; true flight is very fun and Mathilde would get several minutes of it at a time.
So that's what I think: permanently replace the Candle of Cleansing Radiance with an item of Wings of Heaven, at a cost of 3 CF.
- Location
- Earth
Flight via enchanted item is a non-starter, unfortunately.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ok. How do we legitimize them?
Get the emperor to add an addendum to the articles of magic? Create a ninth college?
If they are visible, they need political protection, or they will eventually be targeted the way the group of recently-decimated hedgewise up north proves.
And they know this.
So they know that accepting a spot at the table makes them extremely visible to the colleges that aren't grey and don't give them any protection. They know that publicly visible magic users without protection don't last long. So my bet is that for them to accept our offer, we are going to need to either protect the identity of the person they send, or get a declaration from the emperor that they are sancrosect.
So I want to make them the offer, but I don't expect them to accept. They are too smart to do so.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Are you talking about the ones in Ostland that had a bad run-in with a Necromancer?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Elementalists don't fall under the Articles, aren't Collegiate, and yet they get to live. The Emperor could in fact, legitimise them if he wanted to, since Dieter was clearly able to do so. The Colleges wouldn't like the idea though, because it undermines their position as the only option for mages in the Empire.
An idea I've had floating around in my head is to create a branch college under the authority of the grey order to research and develop "pre-teclisian magics" and then hire all the hedgewise as "grey wizard" researchers.
Of course, there's a ton of problems with this, such as "what if the hedgewise don't want to join the colleges, or be forced to follow the articles that have been used to hunt and persecute them?"
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Other open question:
We know that chaos is the most direct opponent to our plan. We know we have been very visible about recruiting for our plan and screwing over chaos.
So. We can expect chaos interference.
What kinds of plots against us do your think we'll see, and what sort of defenses can we put in place?
I ask, but tbh I expect the responses to be "don't worry about it" or "fear mongering"...
Yep. Targeted by a powerful caster and without allies or political protection, so the ones that could be found were killed.
Cool. Agreed.
How do we get the declaration signed, and how do we convince the hedgewise of thier safety before it gets signed?
We know that chaos is the most direct opponent to our plan. We know we have been very visible about recruiting for our plan and screwing over chaos.
So. We can expect chaos interference.
What kinds of plots against us do your think we'll see, and what sort of defenses can we put in place?
I ask, but tbh I expect the responses to be "don't worry about it" or "fear mongering"...
Yep. Targeted by a powerful caster and without allies or political protection, so the ones that could be found were killed.
Cool. Agreed.
How do we get the declaration signed, and how do we convince the hedgewise of thier safety before it gets signed?
- Location
- Earth
Thinking about it, that's actually surprisingly plausible, at least in the long run. A Great Deed expenditure lets us propose one law for the Emperor's consideration, and he's likely to enshrine it in law. Some options in wording that would classify them under the Grey College, designate them as legal cults, or approve them outright.
That would be fine.
The decision was made that the We would self-manage their social education. If they want to read books and are psychologically unable to give those books up after they have read them, then the solution to that is for them to buy those books. Part of self-determination is the ability to make decisions that they may regret in the future when they have a better understanding of the world and the value of money.
Worthless. The value of a book to them is it is a repository of information that does not require either caloric upkeep or conscious attention to maintain it beyond the lifespan of the We that existed when that information was acquired. Having the same information in another book holds no value to them. They don't grasp the idea of a back-up because their consciousness is incapable of leaving the place where they'd be storing their books (unless they up stakes and shift their entire hive, Egglayers and all, in which case they'd also be moving their books) and constantly watching over every corner of their abode so they can't imagine a scenario where there's a housefire while they're at work, or a pipe bursts over their bookshelf, or whatever.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hedgewise have a spell called "Fellstave" that prevents people from approaching within 100 yards of an area if they're of a specific "signature".
"You chant ancient words of power, demanding all foulness flee your righteous spell. Choose a race as directed under Fellstave Targets. At the start of each round, any of this race within 100 yards of fellstave's target point must pass a Will Power Test or immediately spend a Move Action to move directly away from the target point. Those affected by the spell will move around obvious obstacles as the GM dictates, and can use any remaining actions on their Initiative as normal."
"Each casting of fellstave drives only one target race away. When you learn fellstave, you gain access to one of the following target races for the spell: Beastmen (including Skaven, Minotaurs, Centigor, and the like), Daemons, Greenskins, Mutants, Ogres, Undead" Page 63 Shades of Empire
There's other things to protect against Chaos, but this is the first thing to pop into my head.
I don't know. I was merely chiming in on that point, not necessarily arguing for the nationwide legitimisation of the Hedgewise. If we get them onboard and they want that to happen, I'm sure we could try to figure something out, but for the moment it's a distant concern.
- Location
- Australia
Yeah, it really is ok and something not to worry about. The people we've told about the project are themselves people who wouldn't tell Chaos about it, and we haven't told Chaos ourselves either, so Chaos doesn't know about it.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
This seems to be the fallacy of ignoring the servants.
Gossip happens. Especially for international projects across multiple institutions and jurisdictions without a centralized security effort.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Well, we're as safe as we can be from human cultists- we're based in a city in which direct members of the project will be the only humans there.
If a cult has developed among the Eonir, that could be quite bad. Hard to say how to defend against that beyond general security.
I don't think outside attack is the greatest danger, at least not while we're in Tor Lithanel. As has been gone over at length, the Laurelorn Forest represents a tremendous buffer zone and defense, any large group of enemies (Beastmen, Norscans, Chaos-worshipping Drucchi, etc) would be known to the Eonir long, long before they managed to make it to the city. I suppose ambush while we're outside the city would be a danger.
The single-greatest point of vulnerability is politics. A single change of mind among the ruling council and we're done.
Why the resistance to actually convincing them to come into the Grey College, though? The druids did that with the Jade College, and they retained enough grip on their myths that everyone is complaining about it. The Light Order seems to have inherited plenty from their mystery cult predecessors. Folding them into the Grey College is in fact a reasonable long term goal.
Or.
If you'll are correct and they actually are a religious order, I suppose they could be petitioned to get recognized as a religious order using divine spellcasting (if indeed they do) and get their god secured as a legitimate god of the empire in the pantheon.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It seems extraordinarily arrogant to assume that if we start on the project, Chaos would somehow be entirely ignorant. Just check how many organisations and high profile figures we got involved with. The bigger the project, the harder it is to miss. Chaos isn't omnipotent, but they're also not blind.
That's really not how Chaos works. By definition they gather most of their information through a set of senses that includes precognition. Now, one may correctly point out that the gods do not share all of this information with their believers most of the time, but this project of ours is hardly usual.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We can use a great deed to propose a law at an Electors Meet.
Game out how you're going to get 8/15 electors to vote yes on it.
- Location
- Australia
Belegar has ordered that a tally is made of all the silk the karak gets from the We, so that if and when they get a proper value for money, the karak can pay back in gold the worth of the silk they accepted from the We.
Which is extremely annoying. Because unlike the out-of-place-Beastmen mystery this is a puzzle that Mathilde could solve very simply and easily.
Set Coin to Father, visit every female deity worshipping cult in the Old world. Done. Mystery solved. Between Dawi airlines and her shadowsteed it wouldn't even take more than a month or so.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Isn't that a point in favor of cooperation, though?
Obscurity didn't save them.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Would someone please point me at a post as to why Father is an ideal coin side at the moment?
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
How do you distinguish supernaturally-induced trust from respectful deference paid to a VIP visitor?
At this early stage, I suspect any chaos interference will be opportunistic. I can't see much trouble from cults at the moment, because we're mostly inside an elven city and I suspect their gods don't give the Four much room for a foothold. That means that as long as the outsiders we invited are not worshippers of chaos, we should be fairly secure from that front.
The other vector for attack would be beastmen trying to tear down and destroy waystones, but Cor Dum is up in the chaos wastes, and a massive beastman herd was wipped out fairly recently by the combined forces of Laurelorn and Middenheim. So I'd expect opposition on that front to be mostly small scale, opportunistic raids.
The final way I think the Four could interfere is with a direct demonic incursion—however, the very nature of the waystones makes such a thing very difficult, and I don't expect the Four to invest much resources into that until we start fudging about with the nature of reality later down the line.
As for defence against these... I don't think we need to do anything special except for standard security protocols. I suppose we could really paranoid and investigate the other members of the project for corruption, but Mathilde is a grey wizard and her paranoia levels are higher than the average person's anyway. Just vet who's involved with the project, and don't freely publicise any sensitive information.
Honestly, my gut feeling that the big threats to the project are going to be mostly political—either Nordland kicks up a fuss and manages to do something hostile towards us, or relations between Middenland and the Eonir break down, or the Council kicks all the humans out of the city, or the Druids of the Jade order have a religious freakout, or Alric comes in and wrecks the project in an attempt to take back control of the Light Order, or the Ice Witch and the Hag Witch start feuding—and if any of those happen, I suppose we'll just have to react to it as it happens. Having more allies would help mitigate some of it—which is why I want some of the Major Houses involved so we have some Cityborn presence that anchors us down. The Grey Lords and the Ward of Frost is a good start, but having support from all three pillars of Eonir society would be very useful for us, even if the house provides no theoretical knowledge. At the very least, they'd have contacts and wealth to throw at the project.