Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
-[] Plunder Krieglitz Manor
--[] Focus on information rather than wealth. Take documents and books, leave any gold or jewels.
--[] Secure anything dark that needs to be destroyed.
--[] Judge items of historical relevance and artifacts with a specific use case-by-case, based on the benefit to the Empire if they are back in the open rather than locked away.

-[] Ransack Krieglitz Manor
--[] Steal anything that the Unfahiger family shouldn't possess or otherwise can't openly claim as theirs.
I do think we are allowed to confiscate anything that doesn't belong, we have as close to a warrant as exists in the empire (like that noble that was hiding actual evidence of fraud during our tests).

Of course a Grey Wizard is going to check the hidden spaces for assassins, that where they always hide! not their fault if something else was there too.
 
No to mention we haven't actually made any attempt to find the way to access the hidden rooms, at least a few of which Mathilde should be able to find with her training,
She's trained in stealth, in walking through walls, in smashing walls to smithereens, and hell has even learnt a little about hiding secret doors - but AFAIK her training in "finding secret doors" hasn't advanced since before she pulled a random sconce off the wall in Wurtbad.

Admittedly she did find a hidden door - but only because it was just a regular door that had a tapestry hung over it:
Things get to a poor start when an overly enthusiastic twist leads to a wall sconce breaking off in your hand, scattering burning candle wax over the flagstones. You blow out the candle and place it gently on the floor, hoping whoever finds it thinks it fell on its own. Your prodding of suspicious-looking bricks doesn't break anything, but it doesn't get results either.

After several more days of fruitless searching, you're almost convinced that this castle is free of secrets when you notice that the doors for the servants' quarters you're currently haunting are placed in regular intervals, except for in one spot, where the place a door should be is occupied by an incongruous wall hanging. You triumphantly tear it down and find a door boarded up with rusty nails, and without even a moment's hesitation you begin levering out the nails with your knife and pulling the wooden planks free. You've finally found a secret of Eagle Castle!
Suffice it to say, this is not a skill I'm trusting Mathilde to be good at.
 
Less to juggle in a mini-campaign like this- he doesn't have to take into account actions and reactions across half a continent, just a much smaller subset of actors.
Boney 'managing' said "much smaller subset of actors" (colourised):

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Edit: If we have time, I want to explore the building for actual enchanted items (donate to the colleges) and potential chaos-tainted dangers, and then let the local Ranaldites know that it's clear of deamons and the like before the family get a chance to return. To me, that does not break the Vow of Poverty.

Of course, this is dependant on how public Mathilde's action turn out to be.
 
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Hmm . . . Could we social Elspeth to find out what was under Drakenhof or is that too plot-relevant?

It's not the sort of thing a Magister Matriarch spills over a cup of tea to a relative stranger.

@Boney can I ask what the nature of the questions are? Starke questions so Mathilde can have a cover to sweep it under the rug? Or eyebrow-raising questions on the exact nature of Heidi and Mathilde's relationship?

Questions like 'why is the Empress running around Talabheim'.

I take it this didn't pan out? I didn't notice Regimand sharing results of any of his investigations, just checking our own work.

It didn't, but that Regimand couldn't dig up that information reinforced the impression that Alric wouldn't have been able to.

Wait... if the current estate isn't the focus of the ritual because it's too recent, has anyone looked at the grounds of the family's previous estate?

That would be the Imperial Palaces in Altdorf and Nuln, and prior to that, Eagle Castle in Wurtbad.

I'll admit I hadn't considered that picking right could completely invalidate the other option but I assume in that case Boney would let us repick the second option as if there is nothing to gain from it Mathilde wouldn't just blindly do so anyway simply because she had penciled it into her calendar. @Boney can you confirm that if the surveil option Mathilde decides to do second becomes redundant after the first surveil she will skip that action and let us pick to do something else?

No, whether the ritual is centred only on a specific individual or subset of the family or the entirety of the family itself would still be useful information.

The Elector Count of Talabecland: if it works, could get all hands on deck, but this would be completely airing out the empresses dirty's (if not the big secret) to a political player in the game of 'who is next on the throne?'

The City Militia: lots of manpower for turning city upside down, but not going to be quiet.

the Taalbaston Guard (the elite fighting force that might even get the nobles to cooperate, but will totally boast about how and why they took on an evil plot.

the Cult of Taal and Rhya: cults are generally pretty good at keeping hush hush about chaos shit, but it still won't be that quiet with so many people if varying rank involved, might try to lean on the empress for helping keep her name clean.


the City Watch: should be well practised at keeping such stuff (if not as big and dramatic) quiet. but will be very limited in how hard they can search compared to the above unless they go loud... but looking for people is part of their job

The longshacks: very good at keeping it secret if they can, and will be the most ruthless in finding them, but smallest group and its a big city.

@Boney would mathy have any different views on this. (as long as its not a spoiler. then just ignore me)

That all fits what Mathilde would predict.

[ ] Approach the hunting lodge Unfahigers
They've been left to dry by Alric and the head of the family. If you offer help, they're all but certain to take it.

[ ] Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers
If the ritual is centred on them, enough observation will tell you what sort of ritual it is.

I note that the approach-them-in-disguise option is gone - is that still acceptable as a write-in?

It was always a write-in, and yes, it's still acceptable as one.

Also, it seems like Approaching them would allow us to get the same awareness of the ritual's presence as surveiling them would - is that correct?

Yes.

@Boney Would it be fair to say that Mira would feel more appreciative that Mathilde sabotaged Alric without directly renegotiating the terms of their deal? So even without renegotiating, doing so would still help make her more amenable to future cooperation.

In theory, but gratitude is ephemeral and has a tendency to evaporate quickly, and you can get more out of her today in a tit for tat exchange than you could get out of her tomorrow when the deed is already done and the only leverage you have is a sense of gratitude.

A question: do we know how the next murder is supposed to go? If so, can we extrapolate which of the two locations is most likely to allow said murder to occur?

Not really, the attempt to copy the guy that died midstep shows that there's at least some wriggle room in how it's done. Mathilde does know it, it just hasn't come up in the text yet, and it will during the next update or two.

If we rescue the Unfahigers from their ritual deaths, would that be a counter-ritual like with the Shamans of Only Gork? What would such a counter-ritual do?

No, counter-ritual requires going a fair bit further than mere prevention of the ritual. One way to do it here would be to do it to prevent the ritual murders while instead performing the murder on members of the caster's family, which isn't really an option in this case.

Because I was semi-randomly re-reading this post: I think that should be *Reichthard.

As the poor fellow tries to explain to people, his name is spelled differently to that of Screaming Lord Reichthard.

That's a good question. Why isn't it? I can think of a few reasons, but not sure which would be main ones.

Basically this. Mathilde would find it hard to wrap her mind around just how ignorant the average person is of magic, and how extremely likely they would be to fumble even the simplest of rituals.

Would Mathilde know the relative difference between Regimand's main investigation result and her own? Since after the race neither of the two would have a reason to hide what they were doing.

Not really. Regimand and Mathilde have different skillsets, so Mathilde wouldn't know if Regimand missed something that he would have got on a high roll, or vice versa.
 
Hmm, if it's the last of the old family he'd know Heidi is a fraud and she is living in a former residence of the newly targeted family so theoretically, maybe it's a grand ritual that would target her?

In which case it'd still raise questions go have her around but maybe we should warn her to get away from the palace.
 
I'd argue our interest is in keeping the Empress above suspicion so we don't start getting some very pointed questions about our friendship with her, I want to stop the ritual but that is second to Mathilde not ending up accused of treason. Algard was there when Matty first met her as Empress If it is known she's a Ranaldite it will be very hard to get out of that. So either we find out where the ritual is focused and can stop it in action and catching the real culprit or we can rule out the Empress completely and easily without any need for digging into her past.
Well, yes? But as you note here, catching the real culprit accomplishes that goal.

Regarding all the arguments over whether looting the manor would be okay in general and whether it would violate the Law of Poverty in particular, there are some relevant WoQMs that I think are worth citing.
Many Wizards would disagree [that the Unfahigers are not enemies].
If you embark on this course of action, you'd be operating under the aegis of 'it doesn't break the vow if you don't get caught' anyway, and Mathilde will be a lot better at not getting caught than most non-Grey Magisters.
[Regimand] would have joined the Grey Order during or immediately after the sieges. He wouldn't join in, but for this family, there'd be a blind eye or two to be found.
[Re: whether Regimand would think less of Mathilde for looting the Manor]: Mathilde thinks it unlikely that Regimand would have deeply-held convictions about the moral righteousness of the Unfahigers' claim to the looted wealth of the Empire. This is not an ancient ancestral home of the Unfahigers, they're from Stirland, they only established themselves in Talabheim after Dieter IV was ousted as Emperor.
Summing these up, these are my conclusions:
1) The Colleges at large, especially the older members (who by the nature of things will tend to include the great majority of the upper echelons), will spare precious few tears for the Unfahigers losing the wealth that Dieter IV looted from the Empire. Not only was Dieter IV as spectacularly incompetent in general as he was spectacularly corrupt, he was also responsible for deliberately inflaming the tensions between the Colleges that led to the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. He is also the Emperor who banned the Colleges in the aftermath, which among other things IIRC led to the violent deaths of almost every Journeyman caught outside of the Colleges themselves. This Collegial attitude may be reasonably assumed to include the Grey Order.
2) Any wealth the Unfahigers have in this manor postdates Dieter IV.
3) We have explicit WoQM that it doesn't count as violating the Vow of Poverty if we don't get caught. Cross-referencing with points 1 and 2 above, it is vanishingly unlikely that the Unfahigers would be able to recruit anyone from the Colleges to help them track down their missing goodies. That leaves them with pretty much exclusively non-magical methods for trying to track down a Grey Lady Magister. Yeah, good luck with that.

Leading me to the final conclusion:
4) We should still observe the usual considerations re: the Vow of Poverty in how we employ the wealth looted from the Manor, but we are extremely unlikely to get in any trouble for the act of appropriation itself here.
 
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Hmm, if it's the last of the old family he'd know Heidi is a fraud and she is living in a former residence of the newly targeted family so theoretically, maybe it's a grand ritual that would target her?

In which case it'd still raise questions go have her around but maybe we should warn her to get away from the palace.
I doubt that her going to Talabheim would make it harder for Alberich to get at her, if that's a goal.
 
It's not the sort of thing a Magister Matriarch spills over a cup of tea to a relative stranger.
Except it cost Mathilde, as the acting overall commander of the armed forces at the time, the rest of her magical support, since it basically whittled down her magic-using coterie down to just herself. And she still had to go besiege Castle Drakenhof at the time. The end result was a massive win, as it turned out that just herself was enough, but that still doesn't excuse the need for an accounting.

On the other hand, Algard did mention asking for some answers afterward, so maybe Mathilde can just go bother her own Magister Patriarch instead?
 
Well, yes? But as you note here, catching the real culprit accomplishes that goal.

Regarding all the arguments over whether looting the manor would be okay in general and whether it would violate the Law of Poverty in particular, there are some relevant WoQMs that I think are worth citing.




Summing these up, these are my conclusions:
1) The Colleges at large, especially the older members (who by the nature of things will tend to include the great majority of the upper echelons), will spare precious few tears for the Unfahigers losing the wealth that Dieter IV looted from the Empire. Not only was Dieter IV as spectacularly incompetent in general as he was spectacularly corrupt, he was also responsible for deliberately inflaming the tensions between the Colleges that led to the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. He is also the Emperor who banned the Colleges in the aftermath, which among other things IIRC led to the violent deaths of almost every Journeyman caught outside of the Colleges themselves. This Collegial attitude may be reasonably assumed to include the Grey Order.
2) Any wealth the Unfahigers have in this manor postdates Dieter IV.
3) We have explicit WoQM that it doesn't count as violating the Vow of Poverty if we don't get caught. Cross-referencing with points 1 and 2 above, it is vanishingly unlikely that the Unfahigers would be able to recruit anyone from the Colleges to help them track down their missing goodies. That leaves them with pretty much exclusively non-magical methods for trying to track down a Grey Lady Magister. Yeah, good luck with that.

Leading me to the final conclusion:
4) We should still observe the usual considerations re: the Vow of Poverty in how we employ the wealth looted from the Manor, but we are extremely unlikely to get in any trouble for the act of appropriation itself here.
I think it is an important distinction to make because some people in the thread seem to have lost sight of how important that goal is, in particular interested parties might let us catch the culprit but it also comes with a high risk of encouraging Alric to examine the empress in detail.

Also "It's not illegal if you don't get caught" is a saying, it doesn't mean something isn't illegal it just means you wont face consequences if no-one catches you.
 
That's what I meant, that maybe we should get her to take Mandred somewhere unassociated to avoid a potential long distance ritual.
It was stated in the update that the family occupying their manor in Talabheim for only 60 years was too little for the manor to be too metaphysically assosiated with them.

Dieter's line was only Emperor for ~60 years, and they'd have spent most of their time occupying the Palace in Nuln, not Altdorf.
After Magnus was Leopold and then Dieter IV, who despite being the Elector Counts of Stirland stuck to Nuln as their capital, but then it got levelled once more by Grom the Paunch and Dieter moved to Altdorf for the remainder of his reign.
There was only about 5 or 6 years between Dieter IV moving to Altfdorf full-time and being ousted for letting Marienburg go (in exchange for an enormous bribe).


All that to say, I don't think the family has a strong enough association with the Palace in Altdorf for it to be a risk. Especially given that they haven't been there in 60 years.
 
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Yeah but things actually fall into it. Which exactly contradicts how it is supposed to cause damage to things, by squeezing stuff in a place with no space.



"Creates a suction force" - if even the air can't fit in, how is there any suction force? The stuff that can fit in (nothing) will get pulled in, everything else is just going to treat it as a barrier because it can't fit through it.

The metaphor as it exists contradicts itself.

So I don't think the spell actually works like that.

There's got to be the bit that actually expands the dimension enough for other things to enter it, so like the grey college pockets, and then a second part that removes the expansion without removing the objects so they can be crushed without just being expelled.

So at least two different portals stacked on eachother? A portal with a time-limited and object-specific expansion effect?

Or just the expansion, so things can fall in, and the damage is caused in done other way.

The weird part is that the actual observable bits of the spell are the ones that contradict the theory of how it causes damage.

[X] Plan The Hunt is On
Only if you require that a Battle Magic spell achieve its effects via physics compliant means when the majority of Battle Magics do quite the opposite.
When high levels of magic are involved, you can do things like:
It looks like a pit full of shadows -> Heavy Ulgu -> Appearance is reality, it is a pit into the realm of shadows
Things fall into pits -> Heavy Ulgu -> From the right perspective, everything falls into this pit
Then it stops suspending disbelief at the point where the thing has passed into the pit.

tldr - Pit of Shades kills people with a Looney Tunes hole that people fall into, but is only a valid hole from the side of the painter.
 
That all fits what Mathilde would predict.
I'll try and not be smug (rolling: Crit failure, Jyn full smug)

So trying to stay hush hush about the whole thing will definitely limit our search power, so getting more detail will be a must if we don't just go 'fuck it, going loud!'

Basically this. Mathilde would find it hard to wrap her mind around just how ignorant the average person is of magic, and how extremely likely they would be to fumble even the simplest of rituals.
I would argue that Mathy isn't really that good at warping her mind around the idea that even other wizards find her near-heroic Learning in magic hard to follow. if Adela Burgstaller's no handrails rocket research trip and Egrimm reaction to us telling him that we made a custom Battle magic of absurd micro-casting management for just one mission is to go by.
 
A Ritual of Dedication, would Heidi be a likely target? Alberich II Haupt-Anderson killing the 'Haupt-Anderson' Empress, it be perfect for showing his dedication.
 
A Ritual of Dedication, would Heidi be a likely target? Alberich II Haupt-Anderson killing the 'Haupt-Anderson' Empress, it be perfect for showing his dedication.
If the ritual is centered around the family, then I don't think that would work.

If the ritual is centered around Alberich, then it might be possible? He'd have to travel to Altdorf to do it, but I think it'd theoretically work. I think it's safe to say Heidi would be the last murder if so.
 
"Killing the Magister Patriarch of the Light Order would certainly qualify. That's another way it could blindside Alric - if he thinks he's the bodyguard instead of the target."
The murders started before Alric's involvement, so if its about Dedication, there is room for Target drift. If it needs him *specifically* the entire set-up depended on someone *wandering in.* And with Drift there is room for interpretation on whos the target. Perhaps the person that stole a Mountain from Chaos. Perhaps a Veteran Grey Wizard. Perhaps a Empress pulled into a hunt.
 
So, I was thinking about it, and I kinda want Mathilde to mince up a demon in front of Regimand just as casually as he owned her on the investigation section. He's never seen her with a great sword in her hands, had he?
 
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