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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
I see no reason why she would care about their lives for their own sake.
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Boney said:
Empire - High
- Belief in the ideal of Mankind United under the Empire for the betterment of all.
- Obedience to the Laws of the Empire as the premier force for Order in the world.
- Oath to the Articles of Magic, to act in the interests of the Empire.
- Duty as a Wizard of the Grey College to obey the Grey College, transferred from duty of the Grey College to follow the lead of the collective Colleges, transferred from the collective Colleges' loyalty to the Empire.
- Duty as a Knight of Stirland to the Elector Count of Stirland, transferred from the duty of the Elector Count to the Empire
- Self preservation from the Enemies of Man, Undead, Orc and Chaos would be free to wreak havoc without the intact Empire to protect its people from those.
- Practical utility in acquiring assets, equipment and common services requires the continuance of civilization.

Humanity - Modest
- Religious beliefs mandate the protection and furtherance of humanity.
- Personal ethics seeks to minimize unnecessary harm to humanity in general.
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Boney said:
1. The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; then to he who is rightfully elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire; then to the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic; then to the laws and ideals of their Order; then to the Patriarch of their Order; then to the authorities that each Magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties; then to other superiors within their Orders.
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Boney said:
15. All Magisters are required to exert themselves to seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means. This shall be the prime concern and purpose of the Colleges, their Orders and the Magisters belonging to them, and to fail in this duty is to render void all the Articles of this document and make obsolete their permission to practise arcane arts without hindrance.
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Her personal beliefs generally indicate valuing human life. And above that, I'd imagine that keeping Imperial citizens alive is one of the ideals of Sigmar's Empire, so that's Article 1, and if there's a Chaos plot right in front of her, not seeking it out and attempting to solve it sounds like a breach of Article 15. At least, if Alric wasn't already there to stop it, of course. But imo that's plenty of justification to want to save people.
 
ReImagined said:
Her personal beliefs generally indicate valuing human life. And above that, I'd imagine that keeping Imperial citizens alive is one of the ideals of Sigmar's Empire, so that's Article 1, and if there's a Chaos plot right in front of her, not seeking it out and attempting to solve it sounds like a breach of Article 15. At least, if Alric wasn't already there to stop it, of course. But imo that's plenty of justification to want to save people.
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As shown in my last post I actually agree with this, but that is not the same thing as caring about the lives of those eight people for their own sake. @mathymancer was initially arguing for the inherent value of the eight nobles' lives barring her from taking a week off to get a better deal from Myra. That last thing is not in any way incomparable with stopping the lot at all.
 
I think it's okay to just see people about to be brutally murdered by the forces of hell and say 'that's not cool', right? We don't really need to point to the articles or anything.
DragonParadox said:
As shown in my last post I actually agree with this, but that is not the same thing as caring about the lives of those eight people for their own sake. @mathymancer was initially arguing for the inherent value of the eight nobles' lives barring her from taking a week off to get a better deal from Myra. That last thing is not in any way incomparable with stopping the lot at all.
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It's a question of priorities. If the investigation looks like it's done, we can talk to Mira. But talking to Mira as one of our first actions is wasting time we might not have.
 
mathymancer said:
It's a question of priorities. If the investigation looks like it's done, we can talk to Mira. But talking to Mira as one of our first actions is wasting time we might not have.
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If we ARE going to talk to Mira at all, we should do it now to get her support in the investigation as soon as possible. The support of the acting Matriarch of the Light College who has a vested interest in maiking sure we progress is sure to be helpful in an anti-chaos investigation!
 
Sparsebeard said:
If we ARE going to talk to Mira at all, we should do it now to get her support in the investigation as soon as possible. The support of the acting Matriarch of the Light College who has a vested interest in maiking sure we progress is sure to be helpful in an anti-chaos investigation!
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If you want light wizards, you can get light wizards:
[ ] Bring in Lord Magister Egrimm
[ ] Bring in Lady Magister Elrisse
[ ] Bring in Egrimm and Elrisse
Talking to Mira is about getting a better deal for the work we are about to do. It will also assist with the light wizards, since otherwise Regimand can find out about our original deal with Mira and start asking questions, but it isn't mandatory, and it isn't the main point of that action.
 
mathymancer said:
If you want light wizards, you can get light wizards:
[ ] Bring in Lord Magister Egrimm
[ ] Bring in Lady Magister Elrisse
[ ] Bring in Egrimm and Elrisse
Talking to Mira is about getting a better deal for the work we are about to do. It will also assist with the light wizards, since otherwise Regimand can find out about our original deal with Mira and start asking questions, but it isn't mandatory, and it isn't the main point of that action.
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Like you said, bringing in the Light Wizards without talking to Mira first means exposing our interest in the case above what was agreed for. Hell, even just continuing to work on the case now that we already investigated it is pretty suspicious at the very least to Mira herself and I don't trust her not to investigate WHY we are so interrested in this specific case.

Seeing how our main interest is to protect Heidi, it would be good to have a good reason to continue getting involved and talking to Mira would give us that Alibi.
 
Ok, so my revised plan is thus we renegotiate with Mira, giving us a in to continue investigating without suspicion on her part, get access to her ressources and facilitate the next step. Then we approach Alric directly and see what he has to bring to the table (and it's hard for him to refuse us if we have the approval of the acting matriarch of his order).

Researching the underworld disturbance is the most likely action that Alric probably hasn't done yet so I'm putting it as third actions since other actions might already have been done well by Alric himself.

[X] Plan Sticking to Our Strengths
-[X] Renegotiate with Mira
-[X] Approach Alric directly
-[X] Research: Underworld Turbulence

Also approval voting for those since they include renegociation which I think we should do as soon as possible :

[X] Plan Renegotiation
[X] Plan Redshirt v1
 
silentorphan said:
Doesn't Alric still hold the Patriarch title? In their conversation, Mathilde and Elrisse both referred to him as "Magister Patriarch."
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He does. But Mira has taken the de-facto leadership of the Order.

I think it looks bad on his bid for leadership to refuse aid from his very own order especially when his administrative capabilities are already put in question. And if he straight up refuses us, it gives us a reason to bring in our own light wizards and he gets blamed for any failure.
 
Sparsebeard said:
He does. But Mira has taken the de-facto leadership of the Order.

I think it looks bad on his bid for leadership to refuse aid from his very own order especially when his administrative capabilities are already put in question. And if he straight up refuses us, it gives us a reason to bring in our own light wizards and he gets blamed for any failure.
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It looks even worse for his leadership bid if he accepts Mira's authority as legitimate and obeys her orders. As far as he is concerned, Mira is a pretender and a threat to his leadership, he's not going to support us just because she said so.
 
Btw, it always confused me, but why do people store the heads of vampire lords instead of trying their best to utterly destroy them? Smash the skull into pieces, grind them into powder, scatter the powder across the sea somewhere near to Marienburg, that sort of thing.

Aside from the fact GW needs the justification to continuously resurrect them, I mean.

Can they actually be restored from that?
 
Raiseth said:
Btw, it always confused me, but why do people store the heads of vampire lords instead of trying their best to utterly destroy them? Smash the skull into pieces, grind them into powder, scatter the powder across the sea somewhere near to Marienburg, that sort of thing.

Aside from the fact GW needs the justification to continuously resurrect them, I mean.

Can they actually be restored from that?
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Boney said:
Keeping their skull where you can guard and check on it means they can't regenerate without it being noticed and interfered with, destroying that skull frees them to regenerate from the next most significant portion of them.
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I think there was a post where he elaborated more on that, but I'll have to take some time to dig it up.
 
Raiseth said:
Btw, it always confused me, but why do people store the heads of vampire lords instead of trying their best to utterly destroy them? Smash the skull into pieces, grind them into powder, scatter the powder across the sea somewhere near to Marienburg, that sort of thing.

Aside from the fact GW needs the justification to continuously resurrect them, I mean.

Can they actually be restored from that?
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Yes. Vampires are immortal. Not "really tough", immortal. If you grind a vampire skull into powder, the vampire will regenerate from the largest piece. As a general statement, Boney said:

"On the subject of anti-Vampire-reconstitution plans: the Witch Hunters have tried them all. There's a reason they keep Vlad locked up under the Grand Cathedral instead of doing something complicated and elaborate with his remains. Keeping it on your mantle and bopping it with a Dispel if it tries to regrow skin is the least bad plan, and there are entire rooms and Perpetual Apprentices dedicated to this in the Amethyst College."
 
Raiseth said:
Btw, it always confused me, but why do people store the heads of vampire lords instead of trying their best to utterly destroy them? Smash the skull into pieces, grind them into powder, scatter the powder across the sea somewhere near to Marienburg, that sort of thing.

Aside from the fact GW needs the justification to continuously resurrect them, I mean.

Can they actually be restored from that?
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Yes, a vampire's soul is bound to the substance of their body, what state that substance is in does not matter or rather it does but only in so far as the vampire is not able to move around and act unless it is more or less whole. That said they do need access to blood (soul) sacrifice or Dhar to actually regenerate and that takes either a whole lot of time or an intrepid necromancer with a knife and the right bit of Nehekaran. Scattering their ashes in the wind just means the necromancers across the Empire can raise them, dump them in the sea and any necromancer with access to the ocean can do the same. So it makes sense to keep the bodies in one piece and smash them periodically.
 
I'm starting to get swayed on the "bringing in Mira so we have excuse to bring in Lights who have expertise point," but if that's the argument, why aren't there any plans that involve renegotiating with Mira and grabbing Elrisse in the same plan? If the justification is "Lights know things we don't about daemon-smiting, saving us research" why are the plans that renegotiate with Mira holding off on bringing them in and instead doing the research ourself this miniturn?
 
That's. Pretty overpowered, honestly.

And kinda resembles daemons.
More than kinda, that's pretty much what daemons do, only they build bodies from scratch instead of using the existing ones.
 
Raiseth said:
That's. Pretty overpowered, honestly.

And kinda resembles daemons.
More than kinda, that's pretty much what daemons do, only they build bodies from scratch instead of using the existing ones.
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That was probably Nagash's inspiration... that or gods. Say what you will about the Great Necromancer he did not lack for ambition and a way to put his soul eternally beyond the grasp of the Warp and those who dwell there was the point of the original elixir that would become the source of vampirism with a little meddling from Neferata.

The one big difference to daemons is that daemons are by definition strangers to the material world, their bodies do not last. Vampires by contrast are soul eating daemons of the material world, Dhar makes them not ever-changing, but changeless.
 
picklepikkl said:
I'm starting to get swayed on the "bringing in Mira so we have excuse to bring in Lights who have expertise point," but if that's the argument, why aren't there any plans that involve renegotiating with Mira and grabbing Elrisse in the same plan? If the justification is "Lights know things we don't about daemon-smiting, saving us research" why are the plans that renegotiate with Mira holding off on bringing them in and instead doing the research ourself this miniturn?
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I'm going to be honest, I don't think pulling in the Lights will save us research AP. I think they'll make the research AP more effective, and potentially give us a better result than we can hope for by ourselves, but I'm not prepared to sacrifice two AP, raise the risk of Heidi's secret being discovered, and interfere with magic dad bonding time for a learning boost when we're perfectly capable of doing it without them.
 
Boney said:
[ ] Plunder Krieglitz Manor
It's unstaffed and unguarded, protected only by locked doors, boarded windows, and a sinister reputation. Who knows what riches the Unfähigers squirreled away during their time in power?
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Would it be possible to drop of information on the current state of the manor to some other parties who might be interested if we don't want to poke around ourselves, maybe those whom could be vouchsafed by a mutual friend of ours?

It would be one way to as Mathilde says put their wealth to worthier causes. Maybe. Depends how Ranald's feeling.
 
The whole renegotiation feels like a unnecessary complication trying to get more shinies.
We don't exactly have a ton of actions to take to solve this thing, so i'd rather we go and investigate first before trying to get paid for doing what we were already doing.
If we find out there is a major daemon coming we can't deal with, then we can just call up some wizards to add some firepower, without trying for complicated maneuverings that may or may not be of any use.

And yes, i am aware that we may not get a change to call up reinforcements, but on the same time we may not need them, or the threat may be completely different from what people are now expecting, investigate first, call up forces later.
 
As someone who is pro-renegotiation I have to say I am not that convinced that it will lead to the sort of reinforcements we expect. I mean yes we can call up Horstmen no problem, he works for us and is a friend... but that is kind of where the easy options end.
  1. Alric is the man we came here to survey and he is clearly in this for political gain first and foremost
  2. Elyse said in so many words that she does not want to get involved in the conflict, which putting her in the same city as Alric investigating the whole thing would be so she would either resent Mathilde or tell her to take a hike (we have no authority over her)
 
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