- Location
- Washington
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Outside the Box
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- She/Her
[X] Plan Compromise
I've been convinced to switch by the many well-reasoned arguments I've read.
Something to remember is that we're not hiring librarians, or getting input on the library's construction, or anything like that. We're getting access to make copies of their collections. Nothing more or less. The Verenans certainly will have unique tomes we want access to - but the really juicy stuff that isn't available in other libraries or from booksellers requires more than gold. It requires favors and prestige. And while our gold budget is effectively unlimited, the other two prices won't be free. Therefore, I reason that the secondary effects people hope to gain from the Venerans are both, as I said, secondary to access to collections, but also fairly minimal at this time. Hiring librarians or getting the latest theories on bibliothecography might be follow up actions we can take, but it's also possible we'll need to wait until we're further along in the construction before we get options to do so.
For the Halfling's Quinsberry library, well, we already have all the favors and prestige we'll ever need to open their doors. K8P is meant to be the Halfling's second permanant home. For that alone they'd likely be very willing to give us full or nearly full access to their collection, and will probably be quite chuffed at having their possibly one-of-a-kind books and records preserved in more than just the one library. And while we're unlikely to get any Halfling librarians or such from this action alone, making sure this early on that the local library will cater to Halfing needs is going to go quite a ways further to gaining their trust and support than it will for the Venerans.
I've been convinced to switch by the many well-reasoned arguments I've read.
Something to remember is that we're not hiring librarians, or getting input on the library's construction, or anything like that. We're getting access to make copies of their collections. Nothing more or less. The Verenans certainly will have unique tomes we want access to - but the really juicy stuff that isn't available in other libraries or from booksellers requires more than gold. It requires favors and prestige. And while our gold budget is effectively unlimited, the other two prices won't be free. Therefore, I reason that the secondary effects people hope to gain from the Venerans are both, as I said, secondary to access to collections, but also fairly minimal at this time. Hiring librarians or getting the latest theories on bibliothecography might be follow up actions we can take, but it's also possible we'll need to wait until we're further along in the construction before we get options to do so.
For the Halfling's Quinsberry library, well, we already have all the favors and prestige we'll ever need to open their doors. K8P is meant to be the Halfling's second permanant home. For that alone they'd likely be very willing to give us full or nearly full access to their collection, and will probably be quite chuffed at having their possibly one-of-a-kind books and records preserved in more than just the one library. And while we're unlikely to get any Halfling librarians or such from this action alone, making sure this early on that the local library will cater to Halfing needs is going to go quite a ways further to gaining their trust and support than it will for the Venerans.
Thinking about it, how much information relevant to the Waystones are the verenans likely to have? Should we try to recruit them for both the library and the Waystones project?
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
Checking SteamDB, the answer appears to be no, based on a limited sample; King and the Warlord, Shadow and the Blade, and Call of the Beastmen all have a lowest recorded price of 50% off there.
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Codex
Fantasy Addict
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This is probably best asked in the Total War Discussion thread. You'll find more players in there.
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
Oh I didn't even realize this wasn't the TWWH discussion thread, my bad. Kept too many tabs open I guess.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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All this talk of Halflings reminded me of a particular group of people in Warhammer. I went looking into their wiki page and I realised, oh, they have their own gods. And those gods are uhhh...
Screw being obtuse. I'm talking about Gnomes. They're dubiously canon because they're from 1st Edition and they were revived in 4th Edition WFRP so Boney has full rights to waive their existence or decide they exist on his decisions. They're short people who live for about 500 years and are naturally attuned to Ulgu. They live in the Midden/Mirror Moors in southwestern Middenland and were terrorised by Grom about a 100 years ago.
The thing of interest is that these are their deities:
Mabyn's description is the following:
Don't take this too seriously, because they're likely non-canonical. I just think it would be incredibly funny if this happened:
Screw being obtuse. I'm talking about Gnomes. They're dubiously canon because they're from 1st Edition and they were revived in 4th Edition WFRP so Boney has full rights to waive their existence or decide they exist on his decisions. They're short people who live for about 500 years and are naturally attuned to Ulgu. They live in the Midden/Mirror Moors in southwestern Middenland and were terrorised by Grom about a 100 years ago.
The thing of interest is that these are their deities:
- Evawn: The goddess of travel, trade and thievery.
- Ringil: The god of entertainment, trickery and merrymaking.
- Mabyn: The goddess of shadows, revenge and magic.
Evawn is the Goddess of Travel, Trade and Thievery in the Gnome Patheon.
She appears as a benign middle-aged Gnome with a high stack of goods piled upon her back, atop which is perched a magpie. Those who follow her ways wander the world, trading their goods for local produce whilst simultaneously stealing anything that may be of use to Gnomekind as a whole.
Strictures:
• One coin in ten belongs to Evawn.
• By theft or by barter, make a profit every day.
• Never be caught in a lie.
• Never stay in the same location for more than a month.
• Steal items of use to the Gnommi, and take them back to your clan.
Evawn's first stricture is the exact same as Ranald's first stricture.
She appears as a benign middle-aged Gnome with a high stack of goods piled upon her back, atop which is perched a magpie. Those who follow her ways wander the world, trading their goods for local produce whilst simultaneously stealing anything that may be of use to Gnomekind as a whole.
Strictures:
• One coin in ten belongs to Evawn.
• By theft or by barter, make a profit every day.
• Never be caught in a lie.
• Never stay in the same location for more than a month.
• Steal items of use to the Gnommi, and take them back to your clan.
Evawn's first stricture is the exact same as Ranald's first stricture.
Mabyn is the goddess of shadows, revenge and magic in the Gnome Patheon.
She has no permanent form, and is usually depicted only as a grey cloak, silver blade, and pointed, grey hat, which those sworn to her normally wear. She is known for her fanatical devotion to the Gnome race, and her complete lack of what most mortal folk would consider as morals. Worship of Mabyn has increased considerably in Glimdwarrow after the devastation wrought upon the burrows there by Grom the Paunch a century ago. She is the primary deity of the Dwarrow Guard.
Strictures:
• Protect the Gnome burrows, no matter the cost.
• Always take vengeance for wrongs done to you, your clan, or your burrow.
• Never reveal the locations of your home burrow to outsiders.
• Practice with your sword for at least an hour a day.
• If you seek to be unseen, do not be spotted.
She has no permanent form, and is usually depicted only as a grey cloak, silver blade, and pointed, grey hat, which those sworn to her normally wear. She is known for her fanatical devotion to the Gnome race, and her complete lack of what most mortal folk would consider as morals. Worship of Mabyn has increased considerably in Glimdwarrow after the devastation wrought upon the burrows there by Grom the Paunch a century ago. She is the primary deity of the Dwarrow Guard.
Strictures:
• Protect the Gnome burrows, no matter the cost.
• Always take vengeance for wrongs done to you, your clan, or your burrow.
• Never reveal the locations of your home burrow to outsiders.
• Practice with your sword for at least an hour a day.
• If you seek to be unseen, do not be spotted.
Codex
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I managed to use my brief time with it in the thread to post the "You've been Gnomed" video, so I'm satisfied.
I really dislike the leading plans.
I want to start the Waystone project this turn by laying the foundations, and nobody seems to care about doing that. I could accept it if there was a big push to do a mass recruitment effort... but...
The leading plans plants are only taking one recruiting action! And no, Mathilde personally scrutinizing a Waystone is not and never has been a prerequisite and is in fact likely to do nothing for the project. It's pure ego to think she'll learn anything new that other wizards haven't already seen. So....
[X] Plan Compromise and Lay Foundations
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
-[x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Quinsberry)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] COIN: The Night Prowler
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
Please... please... take the ego out of it, and I think it's obvious that Mathilde looking at a Waystone is in no way necessary or likely to be that helpful in laying the foundations. Her role is as a facilitator, not that she herself will bring in a spectacular insight.
EDIT: And really, I do not think we need the Gambler to "Lay the Foundations" because I do not think it is likely to be a matter of dice rolls. I think it will be narrative determined by who we have brought to the table.
I want to start the Waystone project this turn by laying the foundations, and nobody seems to care about doing that. I could accept it if there was a big push to do a mass recruitment effort... but...
The leading plans plants are only taking one recruiting action! And no, Mathilde personally scrutinizing a Waystone is not and never has been a prerequisite and is in fact likely to do nothing for the project. It's pure ego to think she'll learn anything new that other wizards haven't already seen. So....
[X] Plan Compromise and Lay Foundations
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
-[x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Quinsberry)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] COIN: The Night Prowler
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
Please... please... take the ego out of it, and I think it's obvious that Mathilde looking at a Waystone is in no way necessary or likely to be that helpful in laying the foundations. Her role is as a facilitator, not that she herself will bring in a spectacular insight.
EDIT: And really, I do not think we need the Gambler to "Lay the Foundations" because I do not think it is likely to be a matter of dice rolls. I think it will be narrative determined by who we have brought to the table.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I can agree that Mathilde is vanishingly unlikely to come up with any particularly profound new insight just by staring at a Waystone real good, but I think that rather misses the point of the action in the first place.
Taking the time to familiarize herself with an actual physical waystone will help Mathilde to bridge the gap between her existing academic knowledge of Waystones and actual practical functionality, and will generally allow her to be a more competent coordinator on the subject when the time comes to start trying to fit the puzzle pieces together.
Taking the time to familiarize herself with an actual physical waystone will help Mathilde to bridge the gap between her existing academic knowledge of Waystones and actual practical functionality, and will generally allow her to be a more competent coordinator on the subject when the time comes to start trying to fit the puzzle pieces together.
- Location
- Earth
It's less about Mathilde being able to personally contribute to the framework and more about Mathilde being able to understand—or at least, being able to keep up the bluff of knowing what she's doing, as it's been mentioned several times that Mathilde is lying, and metaphorically has no cards to play after going all in. The personal observation action gives us at least some basis to work with beyond the bare minimum.
That feels like a "no" on starting the project this turn. Is a giving up some small, potential advantage really worth making everyone wait yet another half year (or more!) get things going. Because we really do need to-
It just seems so damn weird that Mathilde is basically taking a vacation and doing almost nothing related to the Waystone project this six month period.
Mathilde has looked at Waystones before and even turned on one and off. Maybe there will be some value... but there is some value in starting sooner rather than later too. Every six months that passes is a chance for some crisis to erupt that will make things more difficult to get this started. Another diplomatic incident, Thorek getting embroiled in Guild business that leave him tied up.
No other players seems to feel any sense of urgency. Sigh. I just never seem to be in sych with the other voters on this quest.
- Location
- Earth
Looking at waystones casually or the Vlag Waystone for a few days under campaign conditions is a bit different from a month's worth of concentrated effort on the same task, which is what the AP represents. You're not wrong about the merits of starting sooner rather than later, but I think enough people are becoming impatient that it'll have a good shot of starting next turn.
Thorek is responsible for managing his own time and if he somehow becomes unavailable after a mere two years of agreeing to be part of the process it would be to his shame. We are not the baby sitter of everyone on the project. They made a deal and now they have to keep it. Mind in the case of two of the people here they have not really made the deal since we have not covered our side of it, which is what the winning plan aims to rectify.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
If anyone happens to know, how long ago in universe was the Waystone network built? I'm wondering what sort of records/evidence might still be around.
Saying that it's pure ego to say this action will contribute is I think(?) baseless? Just based on the format as long as there's a dice roll there is a positive result.
I don't think we'll take a rep hit. This is the first turn indicating the green for foundations, being punished for not taking it seems too railroad-y to me for this quest. I also think the group right now is a cabal in terms of information? We took a peek at everyone's hand in one-on-ones, they haven't. We know which colleges have info, no one else does. We know runesmith political landscape right now, no one else does. I think it's in everyone's best interest to assume the best of Mathilde right now whether they are aware of Mathilde's actions or not.
I don't think most people internalize this though, this seems too paranoid. Not paranoid in that it seems unlikely or that one shouldn't assume it. We are aware that events aren't scheduled and are subject to the whims of the dice. So basing opportunity cost for this specific action on the basis of probable disasters seems weird.
It's not that it's not valued, 2 in the three-way lead included foundations. It was just the way foundations was developed. It wasn't that the voter base differed from you, a fraction was just satisfied by the compromise.
Codex
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Geomantic Web built by the Old Ones and Slaan, which is the precursor but not the Waystones themselves, is anywhere between 17500 to 7000 years old, since that was the time of the Old Ones. Somewhere in that range was the time in which Albion made their Ogham stones.
The Waystones made by the Elves? Caledor Dragontamer made the Vortex roughly 5900 years ago, and the Waystones began construction sometime afterwards, then joining up with the Dwarves. The White Tower of Hoeth is like 2000 years old, and the Library of Mournings is twice that in age I believe.
Between 6000 and 4000 years ago roughly on top of a much older system of the Old Ones.
