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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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mathymancer said:
Is there word from the QM on it?
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Unless it turns into a major drama I lean in the direction of letting it be sorted out amongst the voters. That said, I'm generally against it, as I am against anything that could result in people's votes going towards something that they didn't actually vote for. I think it's preferable to create a variation of the plan, and if that new plan doesn't attract enough attention to overtake the original, then that's a valid result that should be accepted, not a flawed result to be bypassed by editing the original. This thread has managed some major swings in the vote when it has turned out to be necessary, so I don't think voting inertia is so big a problem that voter agency needs to be sacrificed to overcome it.

mathymancer said:
Can't there be some system in place to notify voters in event of a plan change? Maybe a post pinging them and informing them of it?
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I'm generally against mass pings, and IIRC the site mods frown upon them too.
 
As someone who is mildly against the change I do not think it is that big of a deal. I do not think the library was that much of a hot button for most people so it is a pretty major change.

There is no easy answer here, but for something this small I do not think it is worth getting worked up.
 
Boney said:
Unless it turns into a major drama I lean in the direction of letting it be sorted out amongst the voters. That said, I'm generally against it, as I am against anything that could result in people's votes going towards something that they didn't actually vote for. I think it's preferable to create a variation of the plan, and if that new plan doesn't attract enough attention to overtake the original, then that's a valid result that should be accepted, not a flawed result to be bypassed by editing the original. This thread has managed some major swings in the vote when it has turned out to be necessary, so I don't think voting inertia is so big a problem that voter agency needs to be sacrificed to overcome it.
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Yeah, I'm arguing against my own interests here because I like the change and right now it looks like it will win, but I think the right thing to do is to offer a variant and see if it gets traction.

The biggest danger with that is that the vote gets split between two variants of the compromise plan, and then the vote closes with three plans literally one vote away from one another and one of them wins mostly at random. Hopefully that won't happen, I would hope Boney sees what's going on in the thread and will hold off closing the vote until we resolve the issue if that's the situation.

Maybe the thing to do is have a [ ] Plan Compromise + Quinsberry variant, like the [ ] Plan Compromise + Verenans that already exists. Give people a while to vote, see which one gets more votes, and whichever one that ends up being is the one that gets into the compromise vote.
 
mathymancer said:
Hopefully that won't happen, I would hope Boney sees what's going on in the thread and will hold off closing the vote until we resolve the issue if that's the situation.
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In general, unless a tie has been maintaining itself for ages I wait for a clear winner to emerge.

mathymancer said:
Maybe the thing to do is have a [ ] Plan Compromise + Quinsberry variant, like the [ ] Plan Compromise + Verenans that already exists. Give people a while to vote, see which one gets more votes, and whichever one that ends up being is the one that gets into the compromise vote.
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Having some sort of run-off subvote is all but guaranteed to create more problems than it solves. Maybe if preference voting wasn't a thing that might be necessary, but it is, so people can just vote for every plan that they're okay with.
 
Boney said:
Having some sort of run-off subvote is all but guaranteed to create more problems than it solves. Maybe if preference voting wasn't a thing that might be necessary, but it is, so people can just vote for every plan that they're okay with.
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I guess I get that, but the reason for the current compromise plan is that there were a number of major disagreements between the three close leads. The library vote wasn't one of them, and so I imagine even among those that care about the library vote having a compromise plan win with either option is preferable to having no compromise. But if you approval vote both variants - because you prefer either compromise to one of three plans winning with a slim majority - you can't make your opinion on the library vote known.
 
mathymancer said:
I guess I get that, but the reason for the current compromise plan is that there were a number of major disagreements between the three close leads. The library vote wasn't one of them, and so I imagine even among those that care about the library vote having a compromise plan win with either option is preferable to having no compromise. But if you approval vote both variants - because you prefer either compromise to one of three plans winning with a slim majority - you can't make your opinion on the library vote known.
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I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if you approval vote for multiple plans, then you aren't picking a single plan that perfectly matches exactly what you want. If that's a problem for you, then don't approval votes for multiple plans.
 
picklepikkl said:
I don't have strong feelings about the library one way or another. I am mildly skeptical that the Quinsberry cult will have books we actually want -- remember that the mechanical effect of this option is to make new books available during the purchase rounds. For example, last turn we voted to establish contact with the Colleges of Magic library, and we gained this option:

which we had not previously possessed. I can imagine a world where we want books Verenans have; I can imagine a world where we want Bretonnian books; I can imagine a world long in the future where we've learned Tilean and want Tilean books. What does the cult of Quinsberry have that we might reasonably want soon?
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As the proposer for Quinsberry I was working under the assumption it would give us benefits other than a purchase option. Sure the college option just opened new purchase options but that was explicitly what it was about, we approached the Colleges for permission to to have magic books available in our library, they gave it so now we can do that. With the Quinsberry cult we have something to offer them above and beyond just reciprocal copying rights, I'm expecting Mathilde to leverage that to get more out of them. Whether that is in the form a bunch of books, additional halfling librarians, funding, or something else or some combination of the above. I'm not 100% sure the result of this will be immediately useful for Mathilde personally but I am hopeful it will do more to improve the prestige of the library than an option that just unlocks another purchase option. And the fact that the price is preserving knowledge, something Mathilde wanted the library to do anyway is a cherry on top.
 
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Would making a plan with the same options but with the name Compromise + Quinnsberry be viable? The main gripe would be the misrepresentation of the voterbase right? I believe that total majority are fine with the vote. But right now we have people who feel strong enough of Verena over Quinsberry, but nothing for the reverse. It's not meant to be a legitimate contender, just the opposite of the Compromise + Verena vote since we have nothing for Quinnsberry.
 
Andres said:
I've tried to look back at the previous discussion but I'm a little lost. Why are we going with Quinsberry instead of Verena?
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Some people want the Halflings to get involved in the library, and I suppose they hope that starting with Quinsberry might bulk the library up a little more to make it attractive to the Verenans? At least that's what I got from the discussion.

I find the sentiment in regards to bringing the Halflings along and letting their lineages be recorded as part of K8P's history in a library that we're building to stand the test of time to be a very sweet and symbolic gesture that shows our appreciation of their solid support to the efforts of the K8P Expedition. I'm just not sure on why we need to do them before Verena. Verenans aren't going to be all that picky after seeing our Mountain Sized library funded by a Dwarven King.
 
Andres said:
I've tried to look back at the previous discussion but I'm a little lost. Why are we going with Quinsberry instead of Verena?
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There is a library in the Moot dedicated to Quinsberry that contains records of all the halfling bloodlines. We can offer to store copies inside KAU along with helping with recording the halfling population now living in Eight Peaks as a bargaining chip with the Quinsberry Cult, something we don't really have for the Verenans.
 
Jreengus said:
There is a library in the Moot dedicated to Quinsberry that contains records of all the halfling bloodlines. We can offer to store copies inside KAU along with helping with recording the halfling population now living in Eight Peaks as a bargaining chip with the Quinsberry Cult, something we don't really have for the Verenans.
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Our bargaining chip with the Verenans is a mountain sized library in a Dwarven Karak funded by a King with essentially unlimited funds. It's a librarian's dream to contribute to KAU. They don't need unbelievably high incentives to consider storing books in our library, since their strictures are the following:

• Safeguard knowledge, for it is the foundation stone for civilisation.
• All knowledge is equally important.
• Preserve your judgement from fear or favour.
• Arbitrate disputes whenever you can.
• Do not allow yourself to become a tool of injustice or heresy.
• Combat is a last resort, but do not fear to wield the sword of justice.

Their divine mandate is safeguarding knowledge and keeping it safe. We have a mountain stronghold.
 
Codex said:
I'm just not sure on why we need to do them before Verena. Verenans aren't going to be all that picky after seeing our Mountain Sized library funded by a Dwarven King.
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I'm not at all sure that merely being told we have a big budget is going to be enough for the Verenans. If we have a big library, cool, there's something to talk about. If we have agreements with other libraries or cults, meaning an agreement with us pools the books of several libraries, that's also good. But if all we can say is that we have a large budget...I guess I see the conversation going something like that:
'I would like to have your books, please. You can look at mine in return.'
'Do you have a lot of books?'
'No, but I will real soon, promise.'
'Come talk to us real soon, then.'

Codex said:
Their divine mandate is safeguarding knowledge and keeping it safe. We have a mountain stronghold.
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But as we have a WoG on secrecy is also built into the foundations of the cult. We have a Verenan library in Marienburg and they don't want to share it with anyone from the Empire, I don't know about each and every one of the Verenan libraries in the Empire but I imagine some of them have similar views about sharing their books.

I mean, you could make the argument that the best way to safeguard knowledge is to share it with as many people as possible, but many in the cult of Verena clearly don't feel that way. Remember that an agreement with the K8P library doesn't just mean a copy stored in a mountain stronghold, but also giving access to all current and future collaborators with the library. I believe that's a big ask for many in the cult, and we better bring big incentives.
 
Codex said:
Our bargaining chip with the Verenans is a mountain sized library in a Dwarven Karak funded by a King with essentially unlimited funds. It's a librarian's dream to contribute to KAU. They don't need unbelievably high incentives to consider storing books in our library, since their strictures are the following:

• Safeguard knowledge, for it is the foundation stone for civilisation.
• All knowledge is equally important.
• Preserve your judgement from fear or favour.
• Arbitrate disputes whenever you can.
• Do not allow yourself to become a tool of injustice or heresy.
• Combat is a last resort, but do not fear to wield the sword of justice.

Their divine mandate is safeguarding knowledge and keeping it safe. We have a mountain stronghold.
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My understanding from previous Boney quotes is that the mainstream cult is all about preserving knowledge but against sharing it, while KAU may be tempting it comes at the cost of losing the exclusive access to their knowledge and threatens to undermine their entire powerbase which comes from controlling who can access the knowledge. Without an orc Waagh or a demon horde right there about to burn down your library (at which point it is too late) it's easy to argue that you already are preserving knowledge and that shooting yourself in the foot by sending books off to KAU will make it harder to preserve knowledge in the future.
 
mathymancer said:
I'm not at all sure that merely being told we have a big budget is going to be enough for the Verenans. If we have a big library, cool, there's something to talk about. If we have agreements with other libraries or cults, meaning an agreement with us pools the books of several libraries, that's also good. But if all we can say is that we have a large budget...I guess I see the conversation going something like that:
'I would like to have your books, please. You can look at mine in return.'
'Do you have a lot of books?'
'No, but I will real soon, promise.'
'Come talk to us real soon, then.'


But as we have a WoG on secrecy is also built into the foundations of the cult. We have a Verenan library in Marienburg and they don't want to share it with anyone from the Empire, I don't know about each and every one of the Verenan libraries in the Empire but I imagine some of them have similar views about sharing their books.

I mean, you could make the argument that the best way to safeguard knowledge is to share it with as many people as possible, but many in the cult of Verena clearly don't feel that way. Remember that an agreement with the K8P library doesn't just mean a copy stored in a mountain stronghold, but also giving access to all current and future collaborators with the library. I believe that's a big ask for many in the cult, and we better bring big incentives.
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There is WOG that Verenans do not agree with each other, because that is just canon. Every temple of Verena in the world is a different sect:

"It could be said that every temple of Verena represents a separate sect within the Cult of Verena. Due to the fact that every temple is under its own jurisdiction, the manner in which Verena is worshipped and her strictures are interpreted varies greatly throughout the Empire, even varying between temples within a single city. In any other religion this would rip the cult apart in countless schisms, but Verenans embrace, nay even revel in these differences." Page 72 Tome of Salvation

Mathilde has access to a lucrative contract with Barak Varr, the best trading post in the world aside from Marienburg, strong connections to Dwarven Karaks, and exclusive access to the Library of Mournings in Laurelorn. Who have been isolationist for thousands of years.

The Cult of Verena is not some monolith. The Marienburg faction doesn't want to share. Alright. The Library of Altdorf is free to the public in the Empire, and it's a Verenan institution. They have a contract with the Colleges of Magic. Johann accessed their vaults where they keep anatomy texts that are looked down on by Morrite institutions.
 
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Codex said:
There is WOG that Verenans do not agree with each other, because that is just canon. Every temple of Verena in the world is a different sect:

"It could be said that every temple of Verena represents a separate sect within the Cult of Verena. Due to the fact that every temple is under its own jurisdiction, the manner in which Verena is worshipped and her are strictures interpreted varies greatly throughout the Empire, even varying between temples within a single city. In any other religion this would rip the cult apart in countless schisms, but Verenans embrace, nay even revel in these differences." Page 72 Tome of Salvation

Mathilde has access to a lucrative contract with Barak Varr, the best trading post in the world aside from Marienburg, strong connections to Dwarven Karaks, and exclusive access to the Library of Mournings in Laurelorn. Who have been isolationist for thousands of years.

The Cult of Verena is not some monolith. The Marienburg faction doesn't want to share. Alright. The Library of Altdorf is free to the public in the Empire, and it's a Verenan institution. They have a contract with the Colleges of Magic. Johann accessed their vaults where they keep anatomy texts that are looked down on by Morrite institutions.
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That's kind of the point, then. Will we manage to get something from the Verenans if we try to strike a deal? Yeah, probably. But the better our library looks, the better the deal will be, and the more of the cult it will include. Since the cult has so much to offer we shouldn't rush and should make sure our library has more going for it before we strike a deal.
 
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mathymancer said:
That's kind of the point, then. Will we manage to get something from the Verenans if we try to strike a deal? Yeah, probably. But the better our library looks, the better the deal will be, and the more of the cult it will include. Since the cult has so much to offer we shouldn't rush and should make sure our library has more going to deal before we strike a deal.
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The more you delay getting them involved, the less they'll be able to get into the ground floor and the more time we go without their expertise. These are people who have grinded the Library Science tech tree for hundreds of years, and not letting them get in into the ground floor during the construction phase seems odd to me. If they have advice to offer us about library construction, it's best to know it before we finalise the library, instead of rebuilding or expanding unnecessarily.

Dwarves have been building libraries for thousands of years, but those are all private. Verenans, even in their secrecy, are not nearly as conservative as the Dwarves. They almost certainly surpass the Dwarves in the concept of accessible and well constructed libraries for humans.
 
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Andres said:
I've tried to look back at the previous discussion but I'm a little lost. Why are we going with Quinsberry instead of Verena?
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Redshirt Army said:
At this point I'm open to having the library action be either Verena, Tilea, or Quinsberry.

If a solid argument or a bunch of people with a strong preference for any of those choices comes up, I'd be willing to adjust (or not adjust, in the case of Verena.)
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Mopman43 said:
Out of the three, I'm for Quinsberry, personally.
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mathymancer said:
I already made a pitch for Quinsberry so I'll just quote myself:
mathymancer said:
As some one who is supporting getting contacts in Bretonnia this turn, I have to say that Quinsberry is a great idea and I'll support it next turn (and if this turn it's going to come down do Quinsberry or some other cult I'll go with Quinsberry).

The library should start with easier targets. The books and prestige we'll get from one collaborator will assist with getting the bigger organizations, which probably won't be as interested in the library as it currently stands. And I think the Quinsberry cult is a good first target.

Credit to @Jreengus for coming up with this idea. I'm kind of mad that I didn't come up with this myself because it's so obvious in retrospect. Quinsberry is the halfling God of tradition and knowledge, there's a library dedicated to Him and offerings to Him include books. He's basically the equivalent to Verena's aspect as the Goddess of knowledge in the halfling pantheon, and when the option came to have our library be pious he was mentioned along with Verena, Hoeth and Valaya, so there should be no doubt that His cult will be a useful source of books.

As Marshal Titus Muggins told us, the purpose of the halfling expedition to Karak Eight Peaks was to put some of the halfling eggs in another basket. The expedition has certainly done this with the population of the Moot, and so we now offer the cult of Quinsberry the opportunity to do it with the knowledge of the Moot. If the Moot is lost in some disaster tomorrow some halflings will survive, yes, but think of all the knowledge and history and tradition that will be lost. We graciously offer the halflings a chance to have a copy of all of the significant works and records of the halflings safely stored within The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks, and in return we ask for a copy of all of their insignificant works as well. And also they may copy our books too I guess.

Now if you pay close attention you'll notice that the deal is that we get books, and in return we agree to get even more books. Pretty good deal, if you ask me. And I think the cult of Quinsberry will be inclined to agree.
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Derpmind said:
I'd rather try to start working with the Verenans.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
I don't know if it's solid so to speak, but I want Verena and her followers in on the ground level.

everything about the library is her jam, and her followers will make up the vast majority of humans that we will want to hire in the future. and will be the people most in on the idea of 'super-Libaray'

its a gift to the mother-in-law.

and plus, Nerd Knights! literal orders of knight of Verena will set up bases around the bigger Libaray towns.

got to love Nerd Knights.

basically, my argument is that its narratively satisfying.
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Mopman43 said:
Boney's said before, the Cult in general isn't focused on spreading knowledge.
Boney said:
The Cult of Verena is very decentralized and has no official head apart from Verena Herself. There are portions of it that do try to spread knowledge, but there are others that quite like the power and prestige of being the gatekeepers of it instead. And one big problem that the Cult has is that there's knowledge out there that other powers really don't want preserved, and often for pretty compelling reasons. This means the idea that some of their knowledge needs to be kept to themselves is one that no part of the Cult can fully shake off, because some of that knowledge is proscribed and forbidden.

Safeguard knowledge, says the first of the Cult's strictures. Yes, but what about- All knowledge, says the second. If Mathilde dropped the Liber Mortis in their laps, they'd be required to preserve it. The Codex of Unspeakable Damnation, a how-to guide on building a Chaos Cult and summoning Daemons? Yep. The Black Book of Ibn Nagazzar, which allows even the most talentless of people the ability to cast Death and Shadow Magic for the low, low price of blood sacrifice for each casting? All knowledge means all knowledge. The Liber Bubonicus, which comes with samples of every single plague to have ever ravaged the world? The Liber Caelestior, a book of insane prophecy that broke the faith of he who would become Archaon? The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation? Did Verena fucking stutter? All. Knowledge. Preserve it.

So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.
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Sparsebeard said:
But it IS focused on preserving it. And what is safer than a dwarven hold.
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Tobtorp said:
i am kinda confused why we want genealogy records from the moot for our library... like if we want connections with the quinsberry lodge... ask the hochlander to set up a meeting? and if we want the halflings of karak eight peak to feel more home... maybe ask them what they need?
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ReImagined said:
The proposal wasn't about the Quinsberry Lodge.
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Tobtorp said:
... ehhhh, then i see even less reason to do it... we are not in the moot, and the halflings of karak eight peak are literally in the most secure place for a halfling to be. a dwarf hold...
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Mopman43 said:
Yes, that's the point. We've got a bunch of Moot Halflings, getting their records and books would be something for them.
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Tobtorp said:
ehhh, not convinced... might be a thing for later when the library is really established but when its this new? lets actually get some books in that have use cases. how about we go for some engineering texts for the gunnery school?
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Mopman43 said:
That'd be something for the purchase vote.

For this vote, these are our options:

I suppose you could try the College of Engineering or Imperial Gunnery School under the "another library" option, but I'm not sure you'll find success there.
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ReImagined said:
We're pretty full up on that topic already.
Boney said:
Engineering +14 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven (T)
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The way I see it, the reasons for getting Quinsberry are threefold.

First, Mathilde got the idea to get a library when she visited Karaz-A-Karak and saw how they were able to preserve their history. One of the principal goals of the Library is preservation, and preserving the history and books of the Halflings is a worthy endeavor in and of itself, without further reward.

Second, the Library is currently pretty small. One of the themes of this quest is that success breeds success—nobody wants to be the first to commit when things are uncertain, and nobody wants to be the last when things are snowballing. Picking up easy wins early on like Quinsberry makes the Library more attractive to future partners and gives us more leverage.

Third, Panoramia would probably approve :V
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picklepikkl said:
I don't have strong feelings about the library one way or another. I am mildly skeptical that the Quinsberry cult will have books we actually want -- remember that the mechanical effect of this option is to make new books available during the purchase rounds. For example, last turn we voted to establish contact with the Colleges of Magic library, and we gained this option:

which we had not previously possessed. I can imagine a world where we want books Verenans have; I can imagine a world where we want Bretonnian books; I can imagine a world long in the future where we've learned Tilean and want Tilean books. What does the cult of Quinsberry have that we might reasonably want soon?
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ReImagined said:
Mechanically/for the Waystone Project, probably nothing. This is a dichotomy between the Library as Mathilde's personal and professional search engine, and the Library as her legacy and edifice of preservation.
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picklepikkl said:
When you put it like that, I dig it. We've got four extremely mechanically powerful options available right now: Colleges of Magic option is up to 1000gc/16CF of value, Barak Varr Booksellers is up to 1500gc of value, Library of Mournings is 500gc of value but texts we otherwise don't have commercial access to, and Backfill is probably on the order of 1500-2000gc of value but without the ability to direct it. That's pretty bananas as is. We don't need to prioritize mechanical efficiency at this point if the narrative effects are strong enough, and I guess I do like the narrative effects of bringing on-board the third literate species of Karak Eight Peaks.
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Redshirt Army said:
I ended up convinced of the benefits of starting off with Quinsberry. I don't think that we were planning on buying books from the Verenans next turn anyhow, so just getting the feather in our cap for future collaboration discussions, plus neat narrative benefits, was enough to sell me on it. We can then negotiate with the Verenans next turn and say we have a library spanning the ancient records of four races instead of three. :V

I've updated my plan accordingly.
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Derpmind said:
I simply disagree. So, at the risk of being far too pedantic, here's a plan variant:

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
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Don't think there wasn't any offense intended. There is no procedure firmly followed for this. Incidentally done though.
 
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