Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Can I point out how weird Belgars council is?

His Chancellor is a foreign prince and apprentice runesmith from an isolated hold.

His Steward is a human merchant turned mercenary commander turned civilian governor.

One of his Marshals is a clanless ranger turned Hammerer, and the other is a radical engineer and gyrocopter pilot.

His Loremaster is a second radical engineer.

His Chaplin is a priest of the Dwarven God of Death.

Strange foundations for the future of K8P. Strong foundations, but strange ones.
 
That is very funny, but it does lead to the question of how many of the order would say that their order is the sensible order.

The Golds would obviously say that it's only logical.

Light Order order is devoted to TRUTH and JUSTICE. But do they think that means they are sensible?

Celestial Order read the omens that others are blind to so they are sensible. Maybe? The only one we have talked to doesn't think so.

Jade Order are salt of earth of course they are sensible people.

Amber Order ignores all that nonsensically civilization stuff meaning they are the most sensible of all.

Bright Order No Comment

Amethyst Order Silent
 
On the division of gods, I'm also thinking of things like wizards and their familiars.
The only discrete godly thing is their avatars, as those exist physically and remain physical for their career as avatars. Heres where they have biological children, whether other gods or half mortal demigods.

A deity in the Warp can be both whole and divided. Heck, I'd even argue that splintering child deities off is not always an executive act of the greater body but rather a segment of its metaphysical space finding its concepts at odds with the greater body, thus splintering off to act of its own accord.

Would be positively insane for a discrete being, but with God As Nation, then you have organizations within the nation responsible for specific aspects, which might seek independence as the nation moves to render its organization charter incompatible with the direction of the whole. And with God As Metaphor complicating it, as that represents the culture and geographical nature of the same nation.

So like...what happens if the Empire is forced to abandon Middenland?
The Cult of Ulric is tied to their greatest holy site, a big chunk is going to stay, and if the situation lets them survive, they're going to more or less consider the Empire as having lost legitimacy as temporal sovereign of the Cult.
In god sense, you just splintered a fraction of Manaan because a chunk of it is REALLY dedicated to shipwrecks, but this chunk is contrary to the rest of Manaan, which is promoting shipping.
 
Can I point out how weird Belgars council is?

His Chancellor is a foreign prince and apprentice runesmith from an isolated hold.

His Steward is a human merchant turned mercenary commander turned civilian governor.

One of his Marshals is a clanless ranger turned Hammerer, and the other is a radical engineer and gyrocopter pilot.

His Loremaster is a second radical engineer.

His Chaplin is a priest of the Dwarven God of Death.

Strange foundations for the future of K8P. Strong foundations, but strange ones.
Generally you would expect the council to be made of locals, but it is only fairly recently K8P has friendly locals so everyone including the king is some level of foreigner. It would be more weird if they were all traditionalists because K8P doesn't really have traditions right now. They are making up right now. Trying to apply half remembered traditions would do more harm than good.
 
"More or less. So if we don't have troubles today, we should lay in for the troubles of tomorrow. I've brought in a promising young Engineer named Okri Drakkisson of Clan Bronzebeard - Karak Norn's offshoot of Karak Drazh's Stonebeards, cousins to the Karak Eight Peaks Stonebeards."
So I want to provide a little more context on this Okri character now that he's confirmed as a younger, less fabled version of Cousin Okri. Warhammer Vermintide is a first person video game with shooting/melee mechanics sorta like Left 4 Dead with you killing a bunch of Skaven and other stuff in the Reikland town of Ubersreik during the End Times.

You get to choose to play as one of five characters known as the "Ubersreik Five", although only four can actually fight at a time. The playable characters are the Witch Hunter Victor Saltzpyre (who is Eike's age btw), the Fire Wizard Sienna Fuegonosas, the Asrai Kerillian, the Empire Soldier Markus Kruber, and the Ranger Bardin Gorekkson. They are by far some of my favorite Warhammer characters ever and have absolutely amazing banter that I recommend you guys check out on youtube. They're full of personality and charm.

Anyways, Cousin Okri is a person that Bardin keeps on talking about, and I'm not even sure if he really is a cousin since even Franz Lohner, your human informant and innkeeper in the game, refers to him as "Cousin". I should mention that Bardin talks about Okri in a frankly fantastical manner. His stories of him are so outlandish that Kruber once asked him if Cousin Okri was even a real person:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gSov73UDE

A sample of lines of Cousin Okri:

"Now, that's how Cousin Okri used to do it."

"Cousin Okri says hello!"

"Did I ever tell you about that time Okri and I were trapped in a ravine like this?"

"Stop showing off! You'll never be as good as Okri!"

"Come on! I've a message from Okri for you!"

"The beast's down. Okri couldn't have done the job better!"

S: So these minotaurs, what are they? A larger type of Beastman? Some other kind of mutated monster?
V: I've seen no definitive proof either way. My view is that it doesn't matter, as long as they bleed.
B: Okri knows.
S: Of course he does, Bardin. Imaginary friends know everything.
B: Oi!

M: I hear a lot about a fellow called Grombrindal. Is he an ancestor god?
B: Oh no, azumgi. He's a hero. Terribly mysterious.
M: A bit like Cousin Okri?
B: Aye, very much like that, but don't you dare tell anyone I said so.

B: A clusmy shot, Azumgi. Now, cousin Okri...
M: Isn't here, Goreksson. Keep it up, and I'll let the next one eat you.
B: I was only saying, Azumgi. No need to prickle.

Don't ask me why Bardin treats Okri as an Ancestor God.
 
On the division of gods, I'm also thinking of things like wizards and their familiars.
The only discrete godly thing is their avatars, as those exist physically and remain physical for their career as avatars. Heres where they have biological children, whether other gods or half mortal demigods.

A deity in the Warp can be both whole and divided. Heck, I'd even argue that splintering child deities off is not always an executive act of the greater body but rather a segment of its metaphysical space finding its concepts at odds with the greater body, thus splintering off to act of its own accord.

Would be positively insane for a discrete being, but with God As Nation, then you have organizations within the nation responsible for specific aspects, which might seek independence as the nation moves to render its organization charter incompatible with the direction of the whole. And with God As Metaphor complicating it, as that represents the culture and geographical nature of the same nation.

So like...what happens if the Empire is forced to abandon Middenland?
The Cult of Ulric is tied to their greatest holy site, a big chunk is going to stay, and if the situation lets them survive, they're going to more or less consider the Empire as having lost legitimacy as temporal sovereign of the Cult.
In god sense, you just splintered a fraction of Manaan because a chunk of it is REALLY dedicated to shipwrecks, but this chunk is contrary to the rest of Manaan, which is promoting shipping.
If we follow this Gods as Nation all the way it would not be surprising if all or most of the order gods are spawned off chaos. Little bits of the nation that come into conflict with the whole. It would even follow common real world mythology development that often have the Gods born from the primordial chaos. Or if we use the territory model mortal mindspace that has conquered bits of territory from chaos.

Also it would really explain why order gods want to keep that quite. They want there is be a clear division between order and chaos gods in the minds of their followers.
 
If we follow this Gods as Nation all the way it would not be surprising if all or most of the order gods are spawned off chaos. Little bits of the nation that come into conflict with the whole. It would even follow common real world mythology development that often have the Gods born from the primordial chaos. Or if we use the territory model mortal mindspace that has conquered bits of territory from chaos.

Also it would really explain why order gods want to keep that quite. They want there is be a clear division between order and chaos gods in the minds of their followers.
In canon, it's explicitly stated that your average citizen and even the priests all believe that the Order Gods come from a different realm to the Chaos Gods, and they distrust the Wizards because they claim their power comes from the Warp, where the Chaos Gods exist. The Wizards of the Colleges know full well that all gods and magic comes from the Warp and they acknowledge it, but the cults do not. They think that their gods have their own realms distinct from Chaos, and anything to the contrary is heresy and blasphemy.

Page 16 Realms of Sorcery:

"GMs should bear in mind that no priest, cleric, or good citizen of the Empire would associate the Realm of Chaos or the hells of the Dark Gods with the Divine Realms of the Empire's more wholesome Gods (unless of course the citizen is a Wizard or a Chaos Cultist). Few would think that good Gods and bad Gods come into existence and reside in the same metaphysical plane. "

"It is generally accepted by the cults of the known world and the Colleges of Magic that there is an immaterial realm beyond the one they exist in. All living creatures in the physical realm have some kind of spirit that either lives in this immaterial realm or goes there after the physical body dies. But the vast majority of all peoples in the Old World have, at best, a very cloudy and narrow understanding of this notion.

Ulthuan's great archmages of the Tower of Hoeth might use the analogy that just as the bodies and minds of mortals inhabit the mortal world, their souls, or immaterial shadows, inhabit the Aethyr. But even this is too simple an explanation because these spirits are far more complex than a mere shadow of mortal life. They are such and yet much more.

Many priests and clerics of the Empire believe this spirit realm is the limbo realm of Morr, the God of death and endings, and souls are drawn to it after the body dies. Some clerics of Sigmar's cult and many devotees of Ulric believe their specific deity has a divine realm all his own, where only the most dedicated and faithful are drawn after death, bypassing Morr's afterlife. In addition to this, there is a very general belief among most Old Worlders that those who worship the powers and dominions of the Old Dark, the Daemon Gods, or those people who live without showing the Gods the respect and worship they require and deserve, will be sucked into the endless hells of the Chaos Realm.

In a sense, all these beliefs are true, but they are also limited in their vision, wrapped within centuries of myth, binding tradition, faith, and superstition. Few priests or clerics (or anyone else for that matter) identify the Divine Realms or Morr's Limbo as being the same place, state, or thing as the Aethyr that the Empire's Magisters sometimes refer to as the source of their power. Sigmar's priesthood preaches that witches, warlocks, and untrained spellcasters outside the auspices of the Imperial Colleges of Magic use the unholy breath of Daemons to power their spellcasting, and so some have identified magic with the Chaos Realm of the Dark Gods."
 
So to assemble it:
-God as Avatar - an Ambassador to the Materium. A discrete individual representing the God as Nation created from the God as Nation, or which later creates the God as Nation upon ascension.

-God as Metaphor - the metaphysical geography a God occupies. Metaphors need not be exclusive, there can be contested concepts or even territories that the gods just occupy different layers of, much like a human city can be above a skaven one. This influences everything they do in the same way that physical geography and climate does a physical nation, but it doesn't define them.

-God as Nation - the metaphysical population of the God, as well as its executive structures. This would be where beliefs, worship, daemons and the like hang out. As with physical nations, some gods are highly centralized and act more similar to an mortal individual, particularly if they are small and local, while others may have executive authority spread in a way that the god's fractions are basically independent beyond the shared banner.
 
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Sure there is an excuse, it is called 'all the experts died in a cataclysmic war and only the apprentices lived to carry on the craft'. It might not be an excuse Snori or any dwarf really would accept, but is is actually true.

God, I wish someone did an apocrypha story series of Snorri in modern Warhammer Fantasy. I know there is a few scattered pieces, but I'd kill for a dedicated series.
 
-God as Nation - the metaphysical population of the God, as well as its executive structures. This would be where beliefs, worship, daemons and the like hang out. As with physical nations, some gods are highly centralized and act more similar to an mortal individual, particularly if they are small and local, while others may have executive authority spread in a way that the god's fractions are basically independent beyond the shared banner.

Adding to this, I suspect what makes a Chaos god what they are is that they are a nation in constant civil war, which is what spills over into the wastes with the Chaos Warriors imitating their patrons.
 
Adding to this, I suspect what makes a Chaos god what they are is that they are a nation in constant civil war, which is what spills over into the wastes with the Chaos Warriors imitating their patrons.
I disagree. I think that's just a reflection of the domains the Chaos gods possess, rather than a facet of them being Chaos. Most of the inter-chaos fighting happens with Tzeentch and Khorne followers, or between followers of different members of the four. I wouldn't really classify any of that as being substantially different from any other god. Actually the only consistent difference between the Chaos gods and others is their goals. The four seek to destroy everything, where no others do.
 
I disagree. I think that's just a reflection of the domains the Chaos gods possess, rather than a facet of them being Chaos. Most of the inter-chaos fighting happens with Tzeentch and Khorne followers, or between followers of different members of the four. I wouldn't really classify any of that as being substantially different from any other god. Actually the only consistent difference between the Chaos gods and others is their goals. The four seek to destroy everything, where no others do.

No, i meant the fact that the Chaos Gods a constant field of bloody battle (or scheming) for their own daemons. There is no peace in the nation of Khorne, no stability in the nation of Tzeench etc...
 
No, i meant the fact that the Chaos Gods a constant field of bloody battle (or scheming) for their own daemons. There is no peace in the nation of Khorne, no stability in the nation of Tzeench etc...
Again, I'm not sure that draws quite the same distinction as you think it does. I would expect that if Khaine had a similar realm with similar entities, there'd be just as much conflict. I don't see a distinction between Chaos and non-Chaos there. Although the existence of Daemons itself is an interesting difference.
 
As far as gods in Warhammer go, I subscribe to the Greek theological model or the universe.

Meaning, that every god can trace their origin to the primordial void of Chaos. Like, in our universe, chaos is mostly a word for something we don't understand yet. Random events are guided by rules and lie within boundaries that can be described and measured.

In Warhammer, the opposite is true: any kind of order is artificial, painstakingly shaped from the sheer undiluted possibility.

Of course, this flies in the face of the existence of Gods of Order, but, eh, GW kinda ignored them after introducing them, so I shall, too.

What was I talking about? Ah.
What I think is, the conflict between Chaos Gods is artificial, inasmuch as they are trying to introduce the concept of Chaos to reality and claim ownership and dominion over it, despite concept as a word describing something that can ordered and measured.

This is probably noncanon as fuck to the lore of Warhammer at large, tho, but I don't mind.
 
Let's hope we have available AP when the next major Waaagh happens.
The Empire handle major Waaghs on the regular. It depends on what Boney means by major Waagh there, but there were only two Waaaghs that truly threatened the Empire as a nation. Waaagh Gorbad and Waaagh Grom. Not only were the both of them exceptional fighters and tacticians, but they had special circumstances assisting them. Gorbad invading during the Time of Three Emperors and Grom invading during the reign of Dieter IV, who severely drained the coffers of the Imperial Palace on vanity projects to take over the Border Princes in his name. That was one of the primary reasons Dieter sold Marienburg their independence, to fund his projects because he kept losing money.

Waaaghs have levels of severity, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to spend AP on a Waaagh. The Empire was built on the foundation of fighting Greenskins.
 
I do not think Chaos is what we would call chaos any more, it was back in the old days maybe when you had Chaos and Law as two poles of the system, both just as bad so evil was too much of a good thing, but with Law being regaled to a side note I think it is fair to say Chaos is just... evil, incomprehensible evil from beyond the bounds of time and space that tries to shape the material world to conform to its unreality.
 
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The Empire handle major Waaghs on the regular. It depends on what Boney means by major Waagh there, but there were only two Waaaghs that truly threatened the Empire as a nation. Waaagh Gorbad and Waaagh Grom. Not only were the both of them exceptional fighters and tacticians, but they had special circumstances assisting them. Gorbad invading during the Time of Three Emperors and Grom invading during the reign of Dieter IV, who severely drained the coffers of the Imperial Palace on vanity projects to take over the Border Princes in his name. That was one of the primary reasons Dieter sold Marienburg their independence, to fund his projects because he kept losing money.

Waaaghs have levels of severity, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to spend AP on a Waaagh. The Empire was built on the foundation of fighting Greenskins.
I mostly want to add a major warboss to our tally. The ones we have killed so far have been alright, but I think that we can do better.
 
This might be only tangentially related at the moment, but after looking for lines about Cousin Okri, I started reading the Vermintide 2 Character Conversations.

It's incredibly entertaining. IMO some of the best character writing in Warhammer, you don't even need to have a background on the characters from the start to understand what they're like. I really wish more Warhammer media was like that, where the focus was more on characters than major events.

A large part of what I like about DL and what draws me to it is that it is a character driven narrative. The focus is less on the narrative events and more about the actions and desires of characters causing changes to the world, and that is what I like.

Anyways, if you've got some spare time and want to read something entertaining, I recommend you check out the wiki page I linked. It's very fun stuff.
 
an interesting chapter to say the least, giving us insights into the jade college faction internal feuds and gods.
What I found most interesting and perhaps obvious to others but was enlightening to me was the factional infighting in the jade college

My thinking when i read up on Huberts situation through WOB.
It's not an accident, it's intentional. The Celestial College encourages a focus on divination instead of things like lightning bolts because seeing the future can be such a game-changer. The effect of this is most Celestial Wizards end up focusing on mystical Azyr over elemental, and the side-effect of sidelining those that are heavily elemental is considered an acceptable price to pay.

(there's cultural and historical reasons for it too, but the above is why the status quo isn't challenged from within or without)
For me when i read this my thinking was something like this.

'well why doesn't the celestial college at least try to help foster what few find their talents in the elemental azyr or how come someone hasn't tried to establish a little in group/faction dedicating themselves to mastery over elemental azyr?'

Same thoughts were cooking in my head in terms of recruiting hedgewise into the colleges and thinking the could just be recruited and teaching their secret little magic stuff of the hedgewise to their apprentices only and things would be fine and dandy.

As the Jade college has quite functionally shown, expecting different groups of people with different idea's on how to move the college going forward to all work together fine and dandy isn't exactly something that happens in reality much.

I guess I can understand now the hesitation to hire outside mages like the hedgewise like the 'wise ones' of Osternmark or Ostland where distrust of male magic users and throwing them under the bus is common place amongst them by the colleges who may consider their idea detrimental to the colleges future, especially Paranorth and his faction peeps in the Jades.

Or perhaps the mercenary wizards of Tilea/Estalia who may face wariness of recruitment from the celestials college for example for their battle focused magic skill perhaps lies in the scope of elemental due to mainly developing their magic for war and hard realities of it and those who in the upper echalons of the celestial college for 'historical and cultural reasons' would wish to avoid recrutement of such mages to prevent the rise of a skilled elemental azyr battle mage who could challenge the overall focus on the mystical side of Azyr for the obvious reasons boney highlighted in the quote above.

Either way, enlightening to me in realizing why colleges may hesitate to extend a lending hand in cultivating mages of different ways of thinking and approaches that challenge the culture of the college in question and may even stifly such individuals growth and promotions in the college.

Perhaps obvious to others but i just liked to note it in my thoughts on the chapter.

Previously i was once a hardliner for more dwarf boogaloo and still somewhat wish for some more fun times with them as advisor and defenitly when they go reconquer the silver pinnacle but i'm starting to show an interest in working closely with the colleges in the future and learning all the unique intracies, religous, factions within, and political thoughts of the other colleges and the grey especially.

Perhaps their was once a time when the grey college was more divided? sneaky infighting for what others believed the 'correct' future for the grey college occurring in it's past. Perhaps a hedgewise group held once more influence in the grey college only to be silenced in the past or even during the night of a thousand wizard duel boogaloo hidden and covered up. Relations with the hedgewise only thawing with Alagard and his triple agent.

learning about the new lord magister grey who in cannon seems to have a thing for sigmar although how he'll go about it and religion in how to move the grey college and the rest of the others in the future of DL remains to be seen

All speculation but i'm heavily interested in involving ourselves with and learning about the other colleges for now and perhaps in time, even establishing for ourselves a faction to be noticed by the other factions within the colleges would be cool.

Alas, i'll hold such lofty dreams and speculations for when we make it to the next arc vote but i'll certainly be waiting with interest however long it takes and hopefully the waystone research project will turn out to be gamer.
 
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As far as gods in Warhammer go, I subscribe to the Greek theological model or the universe.

Meaning, that every god can trace their origin to the primordial void of Chaos. Like, in our universe, chaos is mostly a word for something we don't understand yet. Random events are guided by rules and lie within boundaries that can be described and measured.

In Warhammer, the opposite is true: any kind of order is artificial, painstakingly shaped from the sheer undiluted possibility.
The thing is unlike a lot of fantasy universes to our knowledge warhammer's universe WASN'T crafted out of the primordial ooze like that. Order naturally exists and was only shifted into different FLAVORS of Order through Old One and then later mortal artifice.
 
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