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Also maybe the battle wizard stop blowing up your hidey holes.
Please, you really thought I stayed in Sylvania after that grey furry leveled Drakenhof? For who do you take me, Konrad? No, I made a tactical retreat out of that province. By the way, I'm glad she didn't choose to become a princess, I would have had to move again🙄
 
Some further thoughts from my current reread.
You begin to rebut, but then you frown. He's kind of got a point, considering the order you're delivering these in. Maybe you shouldn't have saved the best for last. "My sources," you say, standing and dropping your freshly-printed tome on his desk with a dramatic thump, "are primary."
This bit still gives me chills/shivers of anticipation, which is quite the thing for someone being dramatic about handing over a book. There's actually a decent amount of buildup to make it so (both the prior papers resulting in the daemon check, and also the earlier interlude with the high king), but it still surprised me how much a reaction it got.
[ ] Speak honestly of everything you're asked about, even outright secrets of the Karaz Ankor
[ ] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
[ ] Conceal matters you know the Dwarves would prefer you conceal
For the most part, I think the story reads just as well coming in late as it does actively participating. This is one exception. Reading it now, this quickly turns out to be pretty much nothing. I doubt most new readers consider this a particularly tense moment. But I remember being there for the vote, and it was quite the thing.

That's really an interesting aspect of quests. For me, I primarily read them as a story, and the fact that they're quests mostly means a greater allowance for success without feeling cheap, because success wasn't certain. Even more so when there's explicitly rolls for success and failure.

But the fact that catching up as a newcomer and being there as it happens are to different experiences is also interesting. It also happens to a lesser degree in serial fiction (there, I think striking a balance between people who read update to update and need reminders vs people who binged and have it all present is more critical), but the effect seems much larger for a quest, because it's the difference between active participation and passive consumption (and some votes are tight enough that individuals make all the difference).

@Boney Is that something you consider when you write? For the example in the quote, the outcome was a big, welcome relief, but I imagine a lot of the tension that came with the vote and the wait isn't there.

EDIT: Just to clarify: The vote on how the empire should respond was still interesting, but none of questions demanded a betrayal of either loyalty to the empire or loyalty to the dwarfs, which was a big concern for the vote going in.
 
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I have to admit something.

Part of my reason for voting for the plan that sabotages Alric is that it's actually just something I'd like to see Mathilde do in the fiction.

This.

I get why the thread feels Alric is Somebody Else's Problem.

But I adore Sneaky Troubleshooter Mathilde.

To keep that fool Alric from retaking the Light College, her challenge for the Empire would be:
1. help Alric succeed against a Chaos cult
2. ruin his ability to take credit for it
3. don't get caught

I want to read Mathilde doing that.
 
This.

I get why the thread feels Alric is Somebody Else's Problem.

But I adore Sneaky Troubleshooter Mathilde.

To keep that fool Alric from retaking the Light College, her challenge for the Empire would be:
1. help Alric succeed against a Chaos cult
2. ruin his ability to take credit for it
3. don't get caught

I want to read Mathilde doing that.
We can still do sneaky stuff later if we find out he's doing something really bad. But promising to sabotage him gets rid of the choice and boxes us into a path.

Edit: also we have no idea what Alaric is investigating so saying "oh it's only a chaos cult" is a bit early.
 
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"A new addition?" the Loremaster asks, peering down at the book as the High King hands it to him. "No, that's proper writing. Rakilid... maybe not. Never saw the purpose in making up new words, the old ones served our ancestors fine." He falls silent as he opens the book, and then his mouth opens slightly as he flips the pages, though no sound comes out.

"Will this help?"

It takes a moment for the Loremaster to find his voice again. "Assuming this is all correct..." he pauses as he flips through some more, his brow furrowing. "We will need many more hands..."

"You'll have them. Send to Zhufbar and Barak Varr for all the scholars they can spare, in my name. And keep me apprised of everything of interest that you uncover."
I never thought about it before, but whatever Longbeard scholars ended up taking the job are probably suffering of chronic disgust and rage on so many levels. A Dwarf probably has an even harder time immersing himself in grimdark vileness for days while knowing that it's all based on truth.
 
So I've been thinking... perhaps one of the worst things Boney could do with our investigation into Alric is having him, and subsequently Mathilde, stumble into something big, like a massive and highly placed Chaos conspiracy or a massive Beastmen ritual, and force the two of them to work together to solve it. And just, along the way Alric spills his guts to Mathilde, he feels responsible for all the bad things he has allowed to happen, he's haunted by his failings as a teacher and a leader, and he's doing his best to learn from his mistakes but it feels like every solution he comes up with just causes more problems. But the reason he keeps trying to become High Patriarch again is because he's terrified that someone else will make the mistakes he made, things which he has learned from and can avoid again. Really gets us to understand him, sympathize with him. And at the end of journey, the deamon banished or the brayshamen defeated, he's so thankful and calls Mathilde a good friend and ally.

Which just puts Mathilde in such an awkward position with all of the Light College politics and her personal relationships with members on opposing sides...one could say she would have a case of divided loyalties.
 
Which just puts Mathilde in such an awkward position with all of the Light College politics and her personal relationships with members on opposing sides...one could say she would have a case of divided loyalties.
Alric, unveiling his deepest fears and aspiration.

Mathilde, with three dozens page analysis and a latter with still warn sealing wax:" I totally understand how you feel buddy."

But more seriously after she stole his personal problem solver, or at least allowed mira the excuse she needed to sent him away, I can't see him labeling Mathilde as anything but a possible conspirator of Mira.
Also he will likely try and claim the spotlight on their achievement, and while Mathy knows when to shut up and let other claim credit, she sure as hell won't allow it from him.

[X] Plan Measured Support
 
@Boney Is that something you consider when you write? For the example in the quote, the outcome was a big, welcome relief, but I imagine a lot of the tension that came with the vote and the wait isn't there.

It's definitely something that I keep in the back of my mind, like when the thread votes to do something that would be unexpected to someone who didn't follow the debate I make sure to summarize the thought process in Mathilde's internal monologue. I also make sure to add links in the updates to tallies and sneak-peaks and in-thread dicerolls that don't have threadmarks of their own so that people who are reading the threadmarks can dip into thread reactions to major events. My main priority is the thread experience for those actively engaged in it, but it is important to me to keep the quest accessible for people who come in late or people who only read the updates, because that's how I engaged with quests before I started writing one. A valuable part of the quest format is that I get a lot of feedback, not just directly from people asking me questions but also from watching people discuss things or ask questions of each other. That shows me where things have been unclear or confusing, and I've gone back and made tweaks to early parts of the quest for clarity in response to discussion a few times.

For this situation specifically, part of the quest format means that you don't have anywhere near as much control or forewarning over what's going to happen as someone writing traditional prose, and that means that you don't get the suite of tools that prose uses to build dramatic tension. The set-up to the talk with the Chamberlain would have had a lot more of a payoff if Mathilde had chosen to firmly take one side or the other, but the thread voting to take the middle road meant that it did end up being a 'pretty much nothing'. Another good example of this is the death of Gotrek. A lot of people don't like the way this came across, and I think a big part of that is that it lacked all the signposting that people have come to expect from character death. if I was writing prose and had decided to kill off Gotrek in advance I could have emphasized the rough terrain and built tension around how the Expedition was approaching the worst of it and had Gotrek show Mathilde a picture of his family and talk about how he's three weeks from retirement or whatever. But the thread decided what Mathilde focused on, and she was focused on getting to know the Expedition's leaders and poking at landmarks like Karak Vlag and Uzkulak and the Combes, and the dice decided how well the steamwagons managed the switchbacks. If Mathilde had gone out scouting with the Knights she might have seen a lot more of the terrain and she might have been a bit more nervous on the approach to the switchbacks. But while that would have been a good set-up for a major accident, it also would have been a big nothing if butterflies meant everyone got up without a hitch.

Another example: Karak Vlag was being set up as a difficult choice to be made or as a raising of the stakes for Karag Dum, but I had missed that with the metaphysics I'd established, it was in Mathilde's power to just clog the flow and bounce Vlag back into reality. But the thread didn't miss it, and it'd be a major disservice to the quest to not reward that level of engagement with the world I'd built. Likewise, the food. Moockery of Death torpedoed a great deal of set-up about food concerns and ideas I'd had about having to live a lot more off the land. I'd even done some preliminary research on cattle raiding and edible wild grains that grow on steppes. But while it was a misstep in the quest as prose, it's bloody brilliant in the quest as a quest. It's part of the trade-off of the format.

Personally I'd argue that all this is a point in questing's favour. It's more realistic that a protagonist, and thus the quests PoV, might get nervous over something that turns out to be nothing, or be completely blindsided by major events. But people are used to more traditional story beats where foreshadowing is always significant because if it wasn't an editor would have cut it, and if it does make it in its in service to a larger story beat or character development. Hitchcock's 'bomb under the table' is cited as gospel by a lot of people, and while it's a great way to achieve a specific objective, I think it's gone a bit too far and now people see the bomb going off without the audience being forewarned as a storytelling sin. In most movies if a bomb's about to go off, even if the audience isn't shown it they know something's about to happen because the music is tense, or the sound is rising, or the camera angles are too close or changing too rapidly. In books, it will often switch to a drier third person omniscient and the moment the narration starts giving you times to the minute you know shit's about to go down. While this is good for setting up the mood, it does mean there's that much more separation between viewer and protagonist. I'm far from the first to make this observation, either - a lot of parodies have skewered this with things like a character realizing something is wrong because the background music just changed or whatever.
 
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Personally I'd argue that all this is a point in questing's favour. It's more realistic that a protagonist, and thus the quests PoV, might get nervous over something that turns out to be nothing, or be completely blindsided by major events. But people are used to more traditional story beats where foreshadowing is always significant because if it wasn't an editor would have cut it, and if it does make it in its in service to a larger story beat or character development. Hitchcock's 'bomb under the table' is cited as gospel by a lot of people, and while it's a great way to achieve a specific objective, I think it's gone a bit too far and now people see the bomb going off without the audience being forewarned as a storytelling sin. In most movies if a bomb's about to go off, even if the audience isn't shown it they know something's about to happen because the music is tense, or the sound is rising, or the camera angles are too close or changing too rapidly. In books, it will often switch to a drier third person omniscient and the moment the narration starts giving you times to the minute you know shit's about to go down.
One nice thing about the quest format is that it allows things to progress that most people would call out if it was in traditional prose.

Like, everything turning up our way in the final conquest of K8P, or Eike turning out to have the talent to be a wizard. It'd be contrived if it was planned, but with this, well, that's how the dice went.
 
Moockery of Death torpedoed a great deal of set-up about food concerns and ideas I'd had about having to live a lot more off the land. I'd even done some preliminary research on cattle raiding and edible wild grains that grow on steppes. But while it was a misstep in the quest as prose, it's bloody brilliant in the quest as a quest. It's part of the trade-off of the format.
boney were you excided to show us your chaos lands cattle and grain worldbuilding?
 
boney were you excided to show us your chaos lands cattle and grain worldbuilding?
It will be a shame to allow all that QM work to go to waste, we need to go back out there to fix it. I'm sure we will find some AP to do it... sometime between now and the world's end.

Edit: I find myself curious about what else share the category of redundant worldbuilding research along the food gathering in a nuclear wasteland+. It got to be a hefty category by now.
 
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boney were you excided to show us your chaos lands cattle and grain worldbuilding?

It all did get used, just not as much as I expected. There's mention of the possibility of Dwarf Rangers gathering wild grains to make bread, and the weird giant Chaos Wastes meat-mushrooms got a description in the text. And it might end up getting used elsewhere, parts of Kislev and Ostermark have similar terrain. And if not here, then steppe vegetation could become relevant in something I write in the future. If nothing else, it would be far from the first deep dive into something I'll never find a use for I've ever done.
 
But people are used to more traditional story beats where foreshadowing is always significant because if it wasn't an editor would have cut it, and if it does make it in its in service to a larger story beat or character development.

Y'know, this actually makes me understand part of why I love quests so much. This is damn near a tautology, but... fiction is unrealistic. It's often so unrealistic, it's outright stupid. It's almost like it's bull that some alopecic ape told some other alopecic apes. Which, y'know, Terry Pratchett was pointing this out decades ago, but this made it click in a slightly different way. Questing trades all of that in for an entirely different set of flaws, and by golly, I love me some new and interesting flaws. (Insert joke about my dating life here...)

But really... Sometimes the gun on the mantle doesn't go off in the third act. Sometimes it doesn't go off at all. Sometimes it's not even real. Shaun of the Dead would have been just as funny to me if the Winchester had a fake Winchester like they were arguing about. Or if they found out it was fake at the end without the argument, for that matter. This format isn't a worse or lesser way of generating a narrative, as far as I'm concerned, because foreshadowing is actually pretty stupid when compared to my life's events. Sometimes you just... wake up, eat your toast, and see 9/11 or an attempted coup happen on the news in the morning after pleasantly dreaming of playing with your puppy dog, y'know? Or sometimes you get off a genuinely good day at work, go home, read your email, and find out your grandma died. Life blindsides you far more often than it has the courtesy to give you warnings...

I don't know. I'm probably crazy for disliking foreshadowing. I certainly am for not hating usage of passive voice like a ton of folks do. But I know I like quests, and I like this quest, and I like being blindsided by this quest. Maybe it's just that I'm accepting payback for years of blindsiding tabletop GMs with every tool available to me...
 
Then sometimes the quest obsesses over something and it turns out to be nothing, like that Cult of Kurnos. (Well, not obsessed, but it made it on the list to investigate as an EIC action.)
 
AFAIK the jade are very tight with the Hedgewise, because most jades were hedgewise before the college were introduced. Though I couldn't quote where I got that from, @Codex might though.
Ah, easy mistake to make. The Grey College is the one that has a connection to the Hedgewise, as a good number of the Hedgewise joined up with the Grey College during Teclis' time. The Jade Order consists of Druidic orders, which are different to the Hedgewise.
 
Personally the way I enjoy quests over fiction sometimes is less to do with foreshadowing and more to do with how shit gets done on either side via competence as opposed to incompetence. Sometimes it feels like normal prose has grown so enamored with the tropes of things only happening because either the villain or hero or big Good or whatever made a dumb mistake that got exploited mercilessly. Quests though, being designed as challenges to overcome rather than a pre-determined sequence of events that can be shaped just right, progress due to people actually being smart.
 
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