Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Angelform]

but may I make a different suggestion?

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We can hire a ritual specialist. Or even send a minion to go learn rituals.
We cannot hire the Light Order's porter.

The Jade Order doesn't enter the equation because the secrets they know and the secrets the Lights know are almost certainly different.

 

[Woltaire]

also I note that alric still hold sway in the order enough that mira or other may not want to use their political capital promoting him especially since that would piss off alric and if he comes back into power they may not want to have the patriarch be on their bad side so ergo they leave him in limbo unless we push for it and make it worth their time by doing them a favor. So we can't count on him being promoted anyway if we don't do it now

 

[DragonParadox]

Sure. Again, I'm not currently speaking out in favor of or against promotion. My understanding of your position is, to paraphrase - 'we should promote him because it would be useful to us, or because he's our friend, regardless of whether he's worthy or not'
My objection is directed towards the 'regardless of he's worthy or not' part.

Whether or not he is ready has been discussed earlier:

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If his own magister matriarch does not care enough not to make this a political bargaining chip I do not see why we should seek to set ourselves up as the arbiter of Erngrim's intrinsic worth as a wizard.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Here's my stance on the whole Egrimm Lord Magister thing:

1) he's our friend, and we do nice things for our friends.
2) he is worthy. He's skilled enough to kill a higher demon and was used as the personal troubleshooter for a Magister Patriarch. Idiots don't get that job.
3) he thinks he deserves it.
4) using politics to help him get what he deserves may help tempt him towards the Slightly Grubby Side of the Force, instead of one of the more extreme factions.
5) imagining the reactions Egrimm quest will have when they get bamboozled by another Mathilde Interrupt (TM) is honestly pretty hilarious.

 

[Codex]

Here's my stance on the whole Egrimm Lord Magister thing:

1) he's our friend, and we do nice things for our friends.
2) he is worthy. He's skilled enough to kill a higher demon and was used as the personal troubleshooter for a Magister Patriarch. Idiots don't get that job.
3) he thinks he deserves it.
4) using politics to help him get what he deserves may help tempt him towards the Slightly Grubby Side of the Force, instead of one of the more extreme factions.
5) imagining the reactions Egrimm quest will have when they get bamboozled by another Mathilde Interrupt (TM) is honestly pretty hilarious.

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I appreciate that your focus is on Egrimm, his desires and that he deserves the position, but I also think it bears mentioning that it's advantageous for Egrimm to be promoted from a purely pragmatic perspective as well. One Lady Magister is one thing, getting Runelord Thorek and Grey Lord Hatalath is another, getting Lady Magister Elrisse is another, but Egrimm becoming Lord Magister pushes the significance of our project even higher.

As Mathilde said before:

As you return to the Expedition as it prepares to march, you're shocked by just how much those last-minute letters grew it. Success breeds success, you suppose; none want to be the first to contribute but none want to be the last, either.

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No one wants to be the first, but no one wants to be last either.

This isn't my primary motivation for wanting Egrimm to be a Lord Magister btw, but it is a factor and I won't deny it. The best choices are ones that benefit everyone I feel.

 

[Rafin]

So permanent until we do something pretty big for them? That's... Not really helping the point? And the option also means we can't do deals on a wizard to wizard basis if it comes to that.
But OK, it's not "permanent"

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I wasn't trying to say that it had no major drawbacks. It would definitely damage the development of the library for quite some time. Not just because the obvious lack of books coming in from one of the greatest libraries in the Empire, but also because it would harm any other deal we make with libraries across the Old World. Any library agreeing to reciprocity with us would automatically agree to the Light Order leeching from them as well, even if only over a long and circuitous path. They would also lose their own bargaining power when it comes to the Light Order.

And all that is beyond the fact that the permanent access bargaining chip is at the lowest value for us right now. If we were to offer it at a time where our Library was actually established and already had a few reciprocity deal under its belt then it would be worth much more than what we'd be getting right now.

But my point is that all of that above damage is not permanent and irreversible. It will not forever make the Great Library less than it could have been. And the reason I think that that disagreement with your phrasing (permanently lesser for a momentary advantage today) is worth highlighting is because a lot of voters care quite a bit about the Great Library's enduring legacy across the centuries, some maybe even more so than the advantages it will provide Mathilde during the actual Quest. And I am pretty sure that with the investment of a few AP whenever (before our death and/or public switch to the dark side) we could fix the damage done by taking this option here. Not the setback in the time of the Library's development mind you. But the two versions of the Library's long term future wouldn't really have to differ.

So one more Light Wizard hired/promoted at this pivotal time of the Waystone Project in exchange for significant but ultimately not irreversible damage to the development of the Library. Some people might see that as a tradeoff worth considering while they wouldn't be okay with lowering the Library's potential literally forever.

3) he thinks he deserves it.

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I'm actually still curious why. Boney already said that blasting a Greater Daemon counts for quite a lot, but Egrimm thought he had been passed over and kept down since before joining the expedition.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Also, now that I'm finally home from work, lets have a proper read through of the update:

Altdorf's Southbank is one of the most wealthy and prestigious neighbourhoods in Altdorf, and it is one engaged in a very slow and genteel war where the ancient and somewhat crumbling abodes of many old-money families are being encroached upon by the relentless spread of upper-class commercial interests catering to wealthy and influential visitors to Altdorf.

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Gods, but I love your writing Boney. You could drop this entire section into a Discworld novel, and I don't think I'd notice the difference.

It may be that nobody working here realizes why they feel so compelled to correct even the slightest crookedness in the layout, as they would lack the senses to perceive the immaterial Waystone in the middle of the pattern, and would be equally blind to the currents of Hysh being drawn in from the radiant sunlight and eddying unnervingly around misplaced furniture.

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Haha wait what

an Immaterial Waystone? Like, one that doesn't physically exist? And Mira brought us here and still tried to pretend she knew nothing?

The triangle pattern and its effect makes me think of the Azorious Senate from Ravnica, who are basically what happens when you put the Light Order in charge of the government.

"More so every day," she says with a pleased smile. "The longer Alric prods at the dark corners of the world for some evil to expunge, the greater an evil it would take him to restore himself to glory."

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Good thing there isn't 32 Everchosen candidates running around I guess OH WAIT

"Please. Tea, Lady Magister?"

"Blue, if they have it."

"Dark for me, water for my guest."

---

"You've been getting yours from Tileans, I take it?" You nod as Mira leads you into the back room. "The variety of tea the Tileans call 'blue', the Cathayans call 'water'. Of course, most Imperial tea-drinkers who have adopted that style of naming teas don't realize it's based on the Cathayan understanding of the Winds."

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At first I thought this was an insult, "oh, you like Blue tea, why don't you drink water you peasant" but then it segued into some cool lore and I was like "yeah, okay".

"Of course. The back room of an upmarket Altdorf teahouse is sacrosanct."

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Altdorf, Ankh-Morpork, what's the difference? Honestly, we should spend more time in Altdorf, it's a great city.

"If the Light Order wanted to pretend they were all autodidacts in the style of Volans, it should have chosen a less exotic building style. I aim to sit us at a table where Hoeth and Thungni already have seats. We must meet their antes with our own, and ours have lineages to match theirs. Let us bring Tahoth Trisheros to the table."

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One of my favourite traits Mathilde has is that she substitutes her rather average Diplomacy skill with other skills. Usually she uses Learning or Intrigue to even the playing field, but here we see her clobber Mira over the head with her extremely high piety score, and I'm loving it.

 

[Derpmind]

I think that we should be getting the most obscure knowledge we can at this juncture, and bring in ritual specialists later if it turns out to be required. Or, you know, learn about rituals personally.

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I think we, and by extension Mathilde, really lack perspective on ritual magic. The Waystones are nearly certain to have required rituals in their construction, if not as part of their use as well. We likely need heavy ritual magic knowledge just for forming a good baseline understanding, not just as some additional component to add in later. No one we know of is more qualified for knowledge on rituals that than a Choirmaster.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

There might be choir-using rituals that are simply beyond the reach of a normal Grey LM.

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I see no reason to think that the Light Order's rituals are any more specifically relevant than the Grey Order's rituals. I thought the argument being made was for ritual knowledge in general - if you're imagining specific Light-Order secrets being relevant, you should be picking the Porter.

 

[Rafin]

Something that might be worth mentioning.

Promise to indirectly interfere with whatever it is Alric is up to. Can be stacked with Investigate Alric.

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Emphasis mine. A lot of discussion regarding this option revolves around potentially sabotaging him by preemptively snatching away his glory or finding some other way to embarrass him in a way that doesn't diminish the good being done for the Empire on the one hand and arguments that we just might not find an easy opportunity to do any of that on the other. But simply failing to keep our promise (in spirit or in letter) is also an option. It would tank our reputation among those in the know, but that might be fixable through twice as many favors later or preferential treatment of another kind or whatever.

I'm not saying that it's a good idea (aiming for it definitely isn't), but I am saying that the risk of choosing that option while remaining prosocial is not as insurmountable as it might seem.

One of my favourite traits Mathilde has is that she substitutes her rather average Diplomacy skill with other skills. Usually she uses Learning or Intrigue to even the playing field, but here we see her clobber Mira over the head with her extremely high piety score, and I'm loving it.

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I agree with the spirit of your comment, but in this case it seems like sadly it's mostly her Learning and bluffing skill.

Egrimm had been either unable or unwilling to uncover more for you than that name,

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I see no reason to think that the Light Order's rituals are any more specifically relevant than the Grey Order's rituals. I thought the argument being made was for ritual knowledge in general - if you're imagining specific Light-Order secrets being relevant, you should be picking the Porter.

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I am not thinking of Light Order secrets. I am thinking of Light Order skills. I don't know if choir magic is even compatible with pure Ulgu. And it simply gives another dimension of what kinds of magic one can pull.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think we, and by extension Mathilde, really lack perspective on ritual magic. The Waystones are nearly certain to have required rituals in their construction, if not as part of their use as well. We likely need heavy ritual magic knowledge just for forming a good baseline understanding, not just as some additional component to add in later. No one we know of is more qualified for knowledge on rituals that than a Choirmaster.

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I am not thinking of Light Order secrets. I am thinking of Light Order skills. I don't know if choir magic is even compatible with pure Ulgu. And it simply gives another dimension of what kinds of magic one can pull.

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I am absolutely down to get Mathilde to learn more about rituals. But that same blindness means we have no idea how relevant it will be. At this early stage, I feel quite strongly that it is more prudent to pick the candidate with all the obscure lore that we can use to build an understanding, rather than the candidate who's very good at casting rituals which would presumably be relevant much later in the process, if at all. If we find that this is something we are lacking, we can get this expertise later.

 

[Tobtorp]

I am not thinking of Light Order secrets. I am thinking of Light Order skills. I don't know if choir magic is even compatible with pure Ulgu. And it simply gives another dimension of what kinds of magic one can pull.

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I honestly think the only ritual magic that is going to help at all will be whatever the jades have in their back pocket. Their the ones with more then just Theoretical Knowledge.

 

[Xepheria]

One thing I think people are somewhat missing is the fact that, if Egrimm is promoted to LM, he gains a say in the vote on who leads the Light college, and has a vested interest in ensuring that Alric doesn't do so.

Taking the option shores up Mira's support and also prevents alleviates future alric-shaped headaches for both us and him, if he decides to be nosy. As a LM himself, as opposed to being a Patriarch, Alric would have no authority over Egrimm, functionally removing him from his influence altogether.

I don't think Egrimm would look a gift horse in the mouth here.

 

[Codex]

Well, Page 100 of Realms of Sorcery 2E says this:

"The main unofficial duty of Ghyran's Magister Druids (albeit one that ties in with their other duties), is to protect the Leylines that run through Imperial territories and the Henges they meet at, ensuring their energies flow cleanly and quickly. As part of this task, the Magister Druids hold seasonal rituals at the great Henges of Eyvberry, Muttersfeld, Fruchtbarfelsen and numerous other smaller stone circles throughout the Empire to encourage the energy travelling through the Leylines to stay vibrant. But these rituals also serve a dual purpose of drawing out controllable elements of Ghyran from the Leylines and allowing it to disperse throughout the surrounding countryside in a manner that encourages the healthy and abundant growth of plants."

The Jade College regularly run seasonal rituals to keep the leylines and henges clear.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Well, Page 100 of Realms of Sorcery 2E says this:

"The main unofficial duty of Ghyran's Magister Druids (albeit one that ties in with their other duties), is to protect the Leylines that run through Imperial territories and the Henges they meet at, ensuring their energies flow cleanly and quickly. As part of this task, the Magister Druids hold seasonal rituals at the great Henges of Eyvberry, Muttersfeld, Fruchtbarfelsen and numerous other smaller stone circles throughout the Empire to encourage the energy travelling through the Leylines to stay vibrant. But these rituals also serve a dual purpose of drawing out controllable elements of Ghyran from the Leylines and allowing it to disperse throughout the surrounding countryside in a manner that encourages the healthy and abundant growth of plants."

The Jade College regularly run seasonal rituals to keep the leylines and henges clear.

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So rituals are relevant to the functioning of the Waystones, but the Jades have the relevant expertise, not the Lights.

It seems really obvious in retrospect that the Jades, who have their whole druidism thing going on, would have rituals for the Waystones. I mean, druids IRL did rituals involving menhirs and the like.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I hope I'm not the only person sketched out by Mira wanting us to sabotage Alric?

Sure she paints a picture of him doing compromising things but fundamentally I think that's self serving bullshit she's using because she wants to shore up her own political position.

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Alric has managed to alienate at a bare minimum:
- his apprentice (Egrimm),
- at least one of his direct subordinates (Mira) and probably more since Mira likely has some support amongst the other Light Order LMs
- a lot of his peers in the other Colleges (Dragomas, Elspeth, likely Algard since he's friendly with Dragomas)
- Roswita van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland

That's a lot - what's even more shocking is that he doesn't seem to have a lot of allies/contacts.

Mathilde is the youngest Grey LM and she has half the Karaz Ankor, an Elector Countess, the Empress and a bunch of elves willing to at least give her a thumbs up. Alric has been an LM or higher wizard for longer than Mathilde has been alive and he's been the Supreme Patriarch for more years than Mathilde was a Magister yet he doesn't seem to have a lot of allies and contacts. That speaks of epically bad political skills - Alric might be a superb battle mage and researcher but what we've seen paints a grim picture of his people skills.

 

[Codex]

Alric has managed to alienate at a bare minimum:
- his apprentice (Egrimm),
- at least one of his direct subordinates (Mira) and probably more since Mira likely has some support amongst the other Light Order LMs
- a lot of his peers in the other Colleges (Dragomas, Elspeth, likely Algard since he's friendly with Dragomas)
- Roswita van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland

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I think it should be noted that High Luminary Horx, the guy who started the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels by sealing Alric in a crystal and reading the Book of Volans, creating a Storm of Magic over Altdorf, was Alric's protege.

Alric doesn't have a good track record with his disciples. Horstmann even implied he was the only one of Alric's disciples to survive to the modern day.

 

[Rafin]

I honestly think the only ritual magic that is going to help at all will be whatever the jades have in their back pocket. Their the ones with more then just Theoretical Knowledge.

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The Lights have an immaterial Waystone that enhances muggle minds to instinctively maintain it and that constantly channels specifically Hysh energy towards their purposes. Just Theoretical Knowledge does not look like that.
Also, Stephen is more famous for his enchantment skills despite being the Light Order's best ritualist. Even if rituals turn out to be inapplicable he's still be very useful to the project.

And just because the Jades have rituals that are established in canon and apparently important to the maintenance of the whole network does not mean that whatever the Lights know or do would just be a lesser version of Jade practices.

One thing I think people are somewhat missing is the fact that, if Egrimm is promoted to LM, he gains a say in the vote on who leads the Light college, and has a vested interest in ensuring that Alric doesn't do so.

Taking the option shores up Mira's support and also prevents alleviates future alric-shaped headaches for both us and him, if he decides to be nosy. As a LM himself, as opposed to being a Patriarch, Alric would have no authority over Egrimm, functionally removing him from his influence altogether.

I don't think Egrimm would look a gift horse in the mouth here.

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I forgot. Did Alric actually already get officially ousted or is Mira officially still only "acting" Matriarch while Alric is off hunting glory and external political allies instead of strengthening his internal base?

Either way, we have no indication that Egrimm would get something like a vote. Mathilde currently would only get a vote when it comes to replacing Algard if something goes seriously wrong beyond just his death, abdication or removal.

- a lot of his peers in the other Colleges (Dragomas, Elspeth, likely Algard since he's friendly with Dragomas)

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Can you remind me where we learned that he alienated Elspeth specifically?

 

[Codex]

I think it should be noted that High Luminary Horx, the guy who started the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels by sealing Alric in a crystal and reading the Book of Volans, creating a Storm of Magic over Altdorf, was Alric's protege.

Alric doesn't have a good track record with his disciples. Horstmann even implied he was the only one of Alric's disciples to survive to the modern day.

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Well, to clarify, this is the exact wording:

Today the streets are mostly empty of Altdorf's citizens as the city's long memory knows that back in 2415, the duels between the Wizards were replaced with all-out magical war, begun when one of then-Supreme Patriarch Alric's underlings by the name of High Luminary Horx imprisoned Alric in crystal and unleashed a Storm of Magic onto the city.

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My brain substituted underling for protege, which probably have different connotations.

Still bad, but probably not "Obi Wan Kenobi finding out Anakin turned evil" bad.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

The Lights have an immaterial Waystone that enhances muggle minds to instinctively maintain it and that constantly channels specifically Hysh energy towards their purposes. Just Theoretical Knowledge does not look like that.
Also, Stephen is more famous for his enchantment skills despite being the Light Order's best ritualist. Even if rituals turn out to be inapplicable he's still be very useful to the project.

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I'm pretty sure the waiters instinctively keeping the teahouse neat and orderly is a side effect of massive amounts of exposure to Hysh, the Wind of Order. And again, if after we've laid the theoretical foundations down we need a top-tier enchanter that the elves are somehow unable to provide, or we need a ritual to make perpetuals relevant*, we can go back and ask the Light Order to lend him to us then.

*I'm noting that he's known for his rituals skill, not knowledge. Elrisse has access to all of the ritual knowledge he does, he's just better at using it.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Can you remind me where we learned that he alienated Elspeth specifically?

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Last turn, he tried to involve himself in the Skaven business and Elspeth chased him out.

You hear of his talks with Grand Count Konstantin of Wissenland, and how they sputter to a halt after Mira tips off her hopefully soon-to-be counterpart of the Amethyst Order, and Elspeth von Draken needs only exert a fraction of her influence for Alric to find that Wissenland is no longer interested in the Light Order's partnership in certain sensitive matters.

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[Resonant]

Horstmann even implied he was the only one of Alric's disciples to survive to the modern day.

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Wait, where was this mentioned?

 

[Potus]

I say we help Egrimm with his promotion. If he has a problem with it, oh well. Makes the story more interesting. If he still becomes a chaos agent, cool. Makes out future interactions more interesting. There is no downside to not helping him

 

[Codex]

Wait, where was this mentioned?

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Here:

He smiles. "No, I woke up one day with the realization that I needed to go to Altdorf. 'Seeing the Light', we call it. Once I made it through to the Pyramid of Light I was accepted as an Apprentice. I did my time in the Choirs and ended up on the Choir for Magister Patriarch Alric during a rather tricky exorcism. I was one of the few left standing after the smoke cleared, and the rest is history." He sighs. "A very apt choice of words when it comes to that man."

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Probably not the only one, but he mentioned "I was one of the few left standing after the smoke cleared" and "apt choice of words when it comes to that man". That has heavy implications that he's one of the few remaining people.

 

[Glau]

So, I think a relevant consideration might be gaming out what happens if Egrimm finds out in the future that we could have supported his push to become a Lord Magister but didn't.

We go straight from the "useful Ally and friend" in his head to "just like Alric" in a heartbeat. We, too, would be refusing to recognize his skills and talents in order to keep him working for us.

It's like an unexploded bomb getting planted in our relationship.