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So I came across a comment, and I wanted to confirm it here. Apparently in Gotrek and Felix, a Necromancer was trying to revive Mannfred von Carstein. His ritual involved sacrificing a virgin, but Gotrek and Felix stopped him and killed him.

Except the Necromancer bled out on Mannfred's grave, fulfilling the ritual because the Necromancer himself was a virgin. Mannfred von Carstein was revived.

I don't know if this is true, but it's incredibly funny and also on brand for Warhammer.
 
So I came across a comment, and I wanted to confirm it here. Apparently in Gotrek and Felix, a Necromancer was trying to revive Mannfred von Carstein. His ritual involved sacrificing a virgin, but Gotrek and Felix stopped him and killed him.

Except the Necromancer bled out on Mannfred's grave, fulfilling the ritual because the Necromancer himself was a virgin. Mannfred von Carstein was revived.

I don't know if this is true, but it's incredibly funny and also on brand for Warhammer.
At the very least, the story is in the 4th edition Undead army book.

Grabbing a few quotes from a read-through of Warhammer army books on SB*:
The tone of the voice changed once again. "They said I was mad, you know. They said it could never be done. For years I trawled my nets through the murk of Hel Fenn. Everyone said it couldn't be done, that it shouldn't be done, but I succeeded. I found HIS body. I will prove them wrong, girl. With your virgin blood I will bring Mannfred von Carstein back to unlife, and all will tremble at my genius. I, Hermann Schtillman, will have performed the mightiest act of necromancy of the age."
(This part is UA paraphrasing)
They realise that the necromancer's blood is draining towards the centre of the room. It evaporates into a fine red steam, and covers a skeleton placed there. Dark magic coalesces, and blood, sinew, organs, and eventually skin grow upon it. Like watching a skeleton decompose in reverse, a whole fleshly body reappears, complete with white fangs in its mouth, and glossy black hair on its head. The body stands up.

Felix recognised the thing at once, although his stunned mind refused to accept what he was seeing. "Mannfred von Carstein," he breathed.

"True," said the Vampire Count, in a low, well-modulated voice. "And I thank you for your part in my resurrection. It was not quite what Herr Schtillman intended, I think, but nonetheless the results are satisfactory."
So, seems like.

*UA Reads: Warhammer Fantasy Battles
 
So I came across a comment, and I wanted to confirm it here. Apparently in Gotrek and Felix, a Necromancer was trying to revive Mannfred von Carstein. His ritual involved sacrificing a virgin, but Gotrek and Felix stopped him and killed him.

Except the Necromancer bled out on Mannfred's grave, fulfilling the ritual because the Necromancer himself was a virgin. Mannfred von Carstein was revived.

I don't know if this is true, but it's incredibly funny and also on brand for Warhammer.
The ritual was invented by a very egalitarian wizard.

Equal opportunity human sacrifice.
 
Even by the standards of the Empire's society, making an 18 year old the figure you rally around must seem ridiculous. The majority of the people fighting alongside him are old enough to be his dad.
Funnily enough, that almost perfectly parallels the legend of Jeanne d'Arc. A crumbling polity in a losing war discovers a peasant adolescent claiming to have received a sign from the divine who then proceeds to rally their beleaguered forces into surprise victories before ultimately being slain.
 
Funnily enough, that almost perfectly parallels the legend of Jeanne d'Arc. A crumbling polity in a losing war discovers a peasant adolescent claiming to have received a sign from the divine who then proceeds to rally their beleaguered forces into surprise victories before ultimately being slain.

Although Jeanne was undeniably more impressive on account of she overcame the stigma that came with being a woman leading in war and you know... she did not actually have blatant divine aid. Valten wishes he was a cool as Jeanne d'Arc :V
 
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I was going to make a post before I got distracted, so here it is:

So there's an interesting mechanic in 8th Edition (don't know if it's in earlier editions) that I like to call the "Coven" mechanic. There are three units in 8th Edition from different Army Books with Coven mechanics. These are full fledged units, composed of anywhere from 5-15 or more, that count as a single caster. The units are Doomfire Warlocks (Dark Elves), Sisters of the Thorn (Wood Elves) and the Horrors of Tzeentch (Daemons of Chaos).

The interesting thing is that Doomfire Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn units always know two spells from different lores, and the unit is considered to be a Level 2 Wizard. Sisters of the Thorn have Shield of Thorns (Life) and Curse of Anraheir (Beasts). Doomfire Warlocks have Soulblight (Death) and Doombolt (Dark Magic). These units learning these spells doesn't mean that they prevent others from learning them, and they get to add their rank bonus to their casting rolls, indicating the additional power from multiple casters. When they miscast, they don't miscast using normal rules, but instead automatically take a number of wounds. When determining line of sight/area of effect, one of the casters of the Coven can be chosen as the focal point.

Horrors of Tzeentch are similar, but they count as Level 1 Wizards and only cast from the Lore of Tzeentch. They can also choose spells normally instead of having predetermined spells, and miscasts hit them harded because Tzeentch.

I just thought this was an interesting mechanic. It's sort of like the Choir casting of the Light Order, except for different Lores of Magic.
 
I was going to make a post before I got distracted, so here it is:

So there's an interesting mechanic in 8th Edition (don't know if it's in earlier editions) that I like to call the "Coven" mechanic. There are three units in 8th Edition from different Army Books with Coven mechanics. These are full fledged units, composed of anywhere from 5-15 or more, that count as a single caster. The units are Doomfire Warlocks (Dark Elves), Sisters of the Thorn (Wood Elves) and the Horrors of Tzeentch (Daemons of Chaos).

The interesting thing is that Doomfire Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn units always know two spells from different lores, and the unit is considered to be a Level 2 Wizard. Sisters of the Thorn have Shield of Thorns (Life) and Curse of Anraheir (Beasts). Doomfire Warlocks have Soulblight (Death) and Doombolt (Dark Magic). These units learning these spells doesn't mean that they prevent others from learning them, and they get to add their rank bonus to their casting rolls, indicating the additional power from multiple casters. When they miscast, they don't miscast using normal rules, but instead automatically take a number of wounds. When determining line of sight/area of effect, one of the casters of the Coven can be chosen as the focal point.

Horrors of Tzeentch are similar, but they count as Level 1 Wizards and only cast from the Lore of Tzeentch. They can also choose spells normally instead of having predetermined spells, and miscasts hit them harded because Tzeentch.

I just thought this was an interesting mechanic. It's sort of like the Choir casting of the Light Order, except for different Lores of Magic.

That is cool yeah, though the fact that it is all elves and daemons makes me suspect you cannot really apply this to human casters so it's not going to be in any way applicable to the colleges sadly.
 
That is cool yeah, though the fact that it is all elves and daemons makes me suspect you cannot really apply this to human casters so it's not going to be in any way applicable to the colleges sadly.
The Colleges do it with Choirs. No multicasting from multiple lores, but Hysh allows a bunch of apprentices or journeymen to fuel Battlemagic spells that Battle Mages can use, as we saw with Horstmann and the Journeyman trio.

It's a lot more limited, but at least it exists. Whether other winds can replicate it like the Elves have managed would take more time and effort to work out, but it might be something to look into for Windherder. I don't think we're restricted to Windherding other winds, we can decide to herd Ulgu from multiple Wizards if we want.
 
The Colleges do it with Choirs. No multicasting from multiple lores, but Hysh allows a bunch of apprentices or journeymen to fuel Battlemagic spells that Battle Mages can use, as we saw with Horstmann and the Journeyman trio.

It's a lot more limited, but at least it exists. Whether other winds can replicate it like the Elves have managed would take more time and effort to work out, but it might be something to look into for Windherder. I don't think we're restricted to Windherding other winds, we can decide to herd Ulgu from multiple Wizards if we want.
Grey Rock Band here we come

What? Did you think that Mathilde would name such a group choir?
 
Everything has its time and place, and that includes munchkinry.

Trying to game the mechanics of an absurdly powerful divine artifact with clearly narrative-based power is not that time and place.
I don't know why asking about how certain magic works is always considered munchkining. Can't one be genuinely interested in magic systems and artifact design? And the effects it would have either in fun situations or the setting in general?

Like, personally I don't think that alerting the whole world that Mathilde fiddled with the Waystone Network with a positive effect would even be a good idea. If anything it would be a fun and crazy, but ill advised thing to do, not a munchkiny one.

I get that there are various reasons not to answer some of my questions. Spoilers, maintenance of mystery, purposefully incomplete world building ect. But that doesn't mean that me asking these questions is me trying to "game the mechanics".
It's funny how I only noticed that you weren't using his correct name once you used one that didn't start woth an A. Seeing Alhambra's name in various permutations doesn't even register anymore.
 
You head right for a pile of chests and crates and push hurriedly through them, spilling precious metals and ornamented weapons across the silk floor until you find the case that glows with malign light, and before you realize what your fingers are doing you've opened the clasps and thrown the lid open.

[Bewitchment again: Piety, 15+26+20(Windsage)-10(Again)=51.]

You stare at the deep red liquid that bubbles softly within the embrace of the chalice, suddenly thirstier than you've ever been in your life. It seems to whisper to you, speaking of the gradual transformation that began twenty-five years ago when you first channelled Ulgu into your soul, and how much it could accelerate your ascension. If your Magesight wasn't quite so potent, if your soul wasn't already claimed, you might already be drinking. As it is you stand transfixed, torn between two equally overpowering urges: to embrace and to reject the Chaos Gods from whom your magic ultimately flowed.
I believe somebody asked what would have happened if Mathilde drank from the chalice a short while ago. To those curious, these are the effects of the Chalice on Chaos Followers on the Tabletop:

D6 Result
1 Unworthy Fool: The imbiber immediately suffers a Wound, with no saves of any kind allowed.
2 Inhuman Speed: The imbiber gains the Always Strikes First special rule until the end of the turn.
3 Regenerating Flesh: The imbiber gains the Regeneration special rule until the end of the turn.
4 Dark Fortune: The imbiber gains a 5 + ward save until the end of the turn.
5 Daemonic Strength: The imbiber gains the Killing Blow special rule until the end of the turn.
6 Final Transformation: If the imbiber is already a Daemon Prince, he instead treats this result as Unworthy Fool. Otherwise, he must immediately take a Leadership test. If passed, he is gifted with Daemonhood, as described on the Eye of the Gods table on page 25. If failed, he is gifted with Spawndom, as described on the same table.

Now, I think a few things need to be mentioned. First, these are the effects of the Chalice on a follower of Chaos, it's very possible that drinking from it would have mutated Mathilde first before granting whatever "gift" it was going to. Knowing Boney, they'd follow the rules for mutation in Tome of Corruption and give Mathilde a roll for Toughness to determine how she could handle it and if she could resist it.

The second note is that this is a Tabletop item, which is why the majority of these effects are only until the end of the turn and not permanent. The Chalice is worth 10 points, it's absurdly cheap in terms of point cost, so it makes sense that its effects aren't super powerful unless you roll a 6. You could only use the Chalice once on the Tabletop.

Of those results, aside from Final Transformation, I imagine Ranald would take most offence to Dark Fortune.
 
I believe somebody asked what would have happened if Mathilde drank from the chalice a short while ago. To those curious, these are the effects of the Chalice on Chaos Followers on the Tabletop:

D6 Result
1 Unworthy Fool: The imbiber immediately suffers a Wound, with no saves of any kind allowed.
2 Inhuman Speed: The imbiber gains the Always Strikes First special rule until the end of the turn.
3 Regenerating Flesh: The imbiber gains the Regeneration special rule until the end of the turn.
4 Dark Fortune: The imbiber gains a 5 + ward save until the end of the turn.
5 Daemonic Strength: The imbiber gains the Killing Blow special rule until the end of the turn.
6 Final Transformation: If the imbiber is already a Daemon Prince, he instead treats this result as Unworthy Fool. Otherwise, he must immediately take a Leadership test. If passed, he is gifted with Daemonhood, as described on the Eye of the Gods table on page 25. If failed, he is gifted with Spawndom, as described on the same table.

Now, I think a few things need to be mentioned. First, these are the effects of the Chalice on a follower of Chaos, it's very possible that drinking from it would have mutated Mathilde first before granting whatever "gift" it was going to. Knowing Boney, they'd follow the rules for mutation in Tome of Corruption and give Mathilde a roll for Toughness to determine how she could handle it and if she could resist it.

The second note is that this is a Tabletop item, which is why the majority of these effects are only until the end of the turn and not permanent. The Chalice is worth 10 points, it's absurdly cheap in terms of point cost, so it makes sense that its effects aren't super powerful unless you roll a 6. You could only use the Chalice once on the Tabletop.

Of those results, aside from Final Transformation, I imagine Ranald would take most offence to Dark Fortune.
Now I'm curious about what kind of Daemon Princess Mathilde would be… Chaos Undivided? Slaanesh?
 
Now I'm curious about what kind of Daemon Princess Mathilde would be… Chaos Undivided? Slaanesh?
Ever since Be'lakor, the Chaos Gods were very adamant about never making an Undivided Prince ever again. Be'lakor is the only undivided Prince (knowing Warhammer, somebody can probably bring up an obscure reference about some Undivided Prince because the setting's just like that). At least in 8th Edition, you have to choose a particular Chaos God to become Prince for.
 
Although Jeanne was undeniably more impressive on account of she overcame the stigma that came with being a woman leading in war and you know... she did not actually have blatant divine aid. Valten wishes he was a cool as Jeanne d'Arc :V
Did Valten have blatant divine aid, or is it still up for debate? His entry in Storm of Chaos at least doesn't mention anything on the level of, say, Repanse.
 
Did Valten have blatant divine aid, or is it still up for debate? His entry in Storm of Chaos at least doesn't mention anything on the level of, say, Repanse.
So, there are two profiles for Valten. One for End Times and one for Storm of Chaos, and while they have some similarities, they are very different.

End Times is super explicit about Divine Intervention. He literally has a copy pasted version of Luthor Huss' Chosen of Sigmar ability, with the exact same abilities (Ward Save, can harness Sigmar to boost his stats for one turn). He has the Awesome Presence and Iron Resolve rules but they don't have flavor text.

In Storm of Chaos, Valten is more unique. For one, they didn't copy paste Luthor's skill. Valten does have a 5+ Ward Save, but the description for it is not divine in nature. It says in Iron Resolve "Valten has steel sinews and a will of iron, and is able to grit his teeth and fight on despite taking wounds that would take down lesser men ten times over." The Ward save represents this toughness. Also, if Valten is "slain", then he takes a Leadership test at the end of the phase. If he succeeds he gets up with 1 wound, ignoring whatever wound he took so he can continue to fight.

His other skills represent personality traits rather than blatant blessings. Awesome presence inspires the entire battlefield, but he does not have an Inspiring Presence and does not want to be General. Forcing him to be one is a bad tactic. Against the Odds is Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, and a unique ability to negate Flank and Rear attack bonuses.

Now, him having WS7 at age 18 does make me think something weird is going on and he's definitely blessed, but if he's blessed, then Sigmar is lowballing it on the flashy effects.
 
So I've been reading 6th Edition Hordes of Chaos to see how things have changed over time, and I'm almost done with the book. Something that strikes me as interesting:

In 6th Edition there's this theme that seems nonexistent to me from reading the 8th Edition sourcebooks, and that is the explicit idea of an "Anti-Everchosen". The book uses the phrase "To balance out the mighty, conquering warrior in the north, a warrior was born, destined to be the nemesis of the iron willed Champion of Chaos". In this case, it was Sigmar, but the book makes a point to say that there will always be "a" hero who will defeat the Everchosen in single combat or whatever to determine the fate of the world. Basically, they're leaning super heavily on the chosen one narrative. The first one was Sigmar, the second was Gromrir Goldfist, and the twelfth was Magnus the Pious.

But 8th Edition never gives any indication that this is a thing. The whole "two warriors meeting in the field of battle to decide the fate of society" seems to have been toned down. In earlier editions it seems to be that Asavar Kul was killed in a duel with Magnus, but in 8th Edition where they pulled back on the chosen one narrative, they had him die to a dagger in the back of his neck, likely by a lieutenant.
 
The first one being Sigmar makes no sense tbh.
There had to have been other incursions before his time.

Makes sense they retconned that part.
What do you mean retconned it? Before 6th Edition, Morkar's rival was Aenarion. 6th Edition and beyond Sigmar fought Morkar. In DL, I'm pretty sure Boney has outright said Sigmar killed Morkar.

There have been previous incursions, but those incursions didn't have Everchosen. The first one who had the title Everchosen was Morkar, who fought Sigmar.
 
So I've been reading 6th Edition Hordes of Chaos to see how things have changed over time, and I'm almost done with the book. Something that strikes me as interesting:

In 6th Edition there's this theme that seems nonexistent to me from reading the 8th Edition sourcebooks, and that is the explicit idea of an "Anti-Everchosen". The book uses the phrase "To balance out the mighty, conquering warrior in the north, a warrior was born, destined to be the nemesis of the iron willed Champion of Chaos". In this case, it was Sigmar, but the book makes a point to say that there will always be "a" hero who will defeat the Everchosen in single combat or whatever to determine the fate of the world. Basically, they're leaning super heavily on the chosen one narrative. The first one was Sigmar, the second was Gromrir Goldfist, and the twelfth was Magnus the Pious.

But 8th Edition never gives any indication that this is a thing. The whole "two warriors meeting in the field of battle to decide the fate of society" seems to have been toned down. In earlier editions it seems to be that Asavar Kul was killed in a duel with Magnus, but in 8th Edition where they pulled back on the chosen one narrative, they had him die to a dagger in the back of his neck, likely by a lieutenant.

I think I prefer the latter of 8th. Mostly because Asavar Kul being killed by a dagger to the neck by one of his own lieutenants really help proves the point of Chaos has always been it's own wrost Enemy
 
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