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Now that the Library action has been clarified, my only remaining objection to the don't ignore Egrimm plan is only integrating with Cityborn culture and no Forestborn culture. It doesn't feel right for Mathilde, who was born a Peasant and had a natural ability to navigate their ranks, to ignore the Forestborn in favor of the Cityborn. I'm quite certain that the Forestborn are not "peasants" in the same sense as the Empire, and they probably aren't living in a stratification that severe, but it still doesn't feel quite right.
 
Now that the Library action has been clarified, my only remaining objection to the don't ignore Egrimm plan is only integrating with Cityborn culture and no Forestborn culture. It doesn't feel right for Mathilde, who was born a Peasant and had a natural ability to navigate their ranks, to ignore the Forestborn in favor of the Cityborn. I'm quite certain that the Forestborn are not "peasants" in the same sense as the Empire, and they probably aren't living in a stratification that severe, but it still doesn't feel quite right.

Eh... I do not think that is that strong of an argument. I mean for one there is a ocean of a difference between the elves who happen to live in the woods and Stirlander peasants. For another if there was such a link in Mathy's mind I am not sure it would be positive. She does not think about her childhood much at all and when she does it is usually in negative terms. Like she is not an elitist, but most of who Mathilde Weber actually is can be attributed to what she became after leaving the peasant life well behind
 
Eh... I do not think that is that strong of an argument. I mean for one there is a ocean of a difference between the elves who happen to live in the woods and Stirlander peasants. For another if there was such a link in Mathy's mind I am not sure it would be positive. She does not think about her childhood much at all and when she does it is usually in negative terms. Like she is not an elitist, but most of who Mathilde Weber actually is can be attributed to what she became after leaving the peasant life well behind
I explicitly stated that Forestborn probably have it better than Stirland peasants, so I already preceded that argument. That being said, Mathilde is still a peasant, and in the beginning of the story that is what gave her the Townsfolk and Peasant connections that she utilised in Biderhof and Wurtbad. Maybe she wants to forget about being a peasant, but I don't think she's ever felt like she was above the lower classes. She's always been from there. Second, what Mathilde feels is secondary to my actual concern, what the Forestborn feel.

You see, the Forestborn were some of the more ardent supporters for outside interaction. SPecifically the Stormwitch and the Forest Council that sserved as our point of contact in the form of Vicerine Cadaeth. You think they'd be happy to have lobbied to get Mathilde over and then see her mingling with the upper classes and ignoring them, like they have been ignored for most of Tor Lithanel's history? They compose a significant population of Laurelorn, yet they only represent 2 of the 24 seats in the council, and 1 of those seats was only just given over to them after the death of Lindalioc. It just doesn't feel right to me to then continue that trend of them being ignored by yet again prioritising the Cityborn over them.
 
Mathilde was a peasant for 9 years, and then those peasants tried to burn her alive.
Now, i am not saying we should not try to make friends everywhere, i just find the peasant argument somewhat flimsy.
Also, i am in favour of making friends with anyone called Storm Witch just in principle.
 
Mathilde was a peasant for 9 years, and then those peasants tried to burn her alive.
Now, i am not saying we should not try to make friends everywhere, i just find the peasant argument somewhat flimsy.
Also, i am in favour of making friends with anyone called Storm Witch just in principle.
The "peasant" argument is simply me saying that Mathilde is not the type of person who would ignore the lower classes in favor of the higher classes, especially since that could very much be a statement that she unwillingly makes by integrating only with cityborn culture. I'm pretty sure Mathilde would never think of the Forestborn as peasants anyway.
 
I explicitly stated that Forestborn probably have it better than Stirland peasants, so I already preceded that argument. That being said, Mathilde is still a peasant, and in the beginning of the story that is what gave her the Townsfolk and Peasant connections that she utilised in Biderhof and Wurtbad. Maybe she wants to forget about being a peasant, but I don't think she's ever felt like she was above the lower classes. She's always been from there. Second, what Mathilde feels is secondary to my actual concern, what the Forestborn feel.

You see, the Forestborn were some of the more ardent supporters for outside interaction. SPecifically the Stormwitch and the Forest Council that sserved as our point of contact in the form of Vicerine Cadaeth. You think they'd be happy to have lobbied to get Mathilde over and then see her mingling with the upper classes and ignoring them, like they have been ignored for most of Tor Lithanel's history? They compose a significant population of Laurelorn, yet they only represent 2 of the 24 seats in the council, and 1 of those seats was only just given over to them after the death of Lindalioc. It just doesn't feel right to me to then continue that trend of them being ignored by yet again prioritising the Cityborn over them.

I do not think they care about us mingling in general. They are elves, even the ones who are for outside contact still think they are above humans. The idea that Mathilde, a human 'going native' with the nobles would not even occur to them IMO. Consider how long it took Asandril to treat Mathilde as a child and not just as a pet. That is the baseline for elf interactions we have here. Sure there might be some willing to go so far as to think of her as 'that mad child', but I do not think any sort of elf will feel bereft of our company anytime soon.
 
I do not think they care about us mingling in general. They are elves, even the ones who are for outside contact still think they are above humans. The idea that Mathilde, a human 'going native' with the nobles would not even occur to them IMO. Consider how long it took Asandril to treat Mathilde as a child and not just as a pet. That is the baseline for elf interactions we have here. Sure there might be some willing to go so far as to think of her as 'that mad child', but I do not think any sort of elf will feel bereft of our company anytime soon.
Asarnil is a Caledorian Dragon Prince, a military leader for the forces of Caledor when he was a Prince and holds the strongest Caledorian Star Dragon as his partner and an artifact made by the legendary Caledor Dragontamer around his throat. Assuming every elf is going to treat us like him is like assuming every Dwarf is Kragg the Grim.
 
Mhm, counting chickens before they hatch i know but something i'm interested in working on with WEB-MAT if it turns out to be succesfull is working on perhaps giving spell enchantments or spell embedments into the red riders being like maybe Aetheric Armour or Dread Mastery to make it a terror to fight against. Perhaps even windherd forth spells or enchantments into the red rider to make them even more fearsome in battle.

Even more then that. Perhaps working alongside other wizards or priests from other religions to perhaps modify such apparitions like say the Amethysts order expertise if we manage to nab one and get them to spill their secrets on soul magic knowledge and whatnot.

Ya know, really fucking counting chickens before the egg existed i know but something i'd be interested as well is also feeding apparitions AV and perhaps even the divine spirits of the Ice Witches to the north and if their is something to be replicated from it to other religions to some extant. much of a stretch to get them into WEB-MAT but fuck i want to know more about their divine spirits they seem to have and what we can learn from it.

The Ungol Witches recruitment is a pipe dream as well but fuck it'd be interesting working with them and understanding their magics of working with several wild spirits and other divine spirits they work with.

Another thing i'd be interested in doing is perhaps hiring the Randal priest back in Stirland who survived the shark fiasco or another ranald priest or priestess who can work his divine magic into WEB-MAT. Thinking on getting more luck affecting items for ourselves or other close wizarding friends the only real way we could get em is through ranald luck items without Malthitide and Ranald having a crisis of faith from her using azyr luck items and such probably counts for giving away such enchants to friends as well.

Certainly won't be easy probably to try and wrangle from Ranald more divine influenced items and esspecially so for the purpose of giving them to friends but if we do add a ranald priest or priestess to WEB-MAT i'm sure their will certainly be more ranald options in the future for one doesn't become his chosen without doing some ballsy gambles and i could see being preety cool depending on who we pick up on.

Anywho, moving from dreams to vote going with not ignoring Egrim as my vote ain't getting traction. Something i'm hoping to get future wizarding actions for WEB-MAT is getting Max and maybe Johon to learn enchantment magics as well as Egrimm so we can later start working with em on windherder and perhaps be of use to Waystones research if windherder proves usefull to it somehow.

Perhaps have Johon plug the Kurgan enchanted weapons into his headas a web-mat action and try to reverse engineer the kurgan enchants on such weapons.

[X] Plan Don't Ignore Engrim
 
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Asarnil is a Caledorian Dragon Prince, a military leader for the forces of Caledor when he was a Prince and holds the strongest Caledorian Star Dragon as his partner and an artifact made by the legendary Caledor Dragontamer around his throat. Assuming every elf is going to treat us like him is like assuming every Dwarf is Kragg the Grim.

Then again he also comes from a culture that has traded and interacted with humans over the last generation. Laurelorn is a culture of formerly hard isolationists whose only contact with humans before the Ulricans has been 'those bastards ho kill our trees'. Like I do not think wanting human aid necessarily means they crave social contact with us or that they would ever suspect us of integrating with the nobles.
 
Then again he also comes from a culture that has traded and interacted with humans over the last generation. Laurelorn is a culture of formerly hard isolationists whose only contact with humans before the Ulricans has been 'those bastards ho kill our trees'. Like I do not think wanting human aid necessarily means they crave social contact with us or that they would ever suspect us of integrating with the nobles.
Caledor are the proudest of all the Elves, and they don't give a fuck about humans. If you want Elves who actually care about human trade, that's Eataine, which is where Finubar comes from.
 
Caledor are the proudest of all the Elves, and they don't give a fuck about humans. If you want Elves who actually care about human trade, that's Eataine, which is where Finubar comes from.

Sure, but when you look at Finubar's opinion of humans it is not precisely flattering, he just thinks that are fast growing powerful barbarians. He thinks humans can be of use yes, but he is also scared of what they might do. All elf interaction with humans is tainted by a measure of arrogance which I do not think is compatible with the insecurity you attribute to the Forestborn. It is not like we are planning to ignore them forever, just put it off until next turn.

Hell it even makes political sense to look into the most powerful faction first.
 
@BoneyM, since Max actions now involve Mathilde, does that mean that we can write any paper with such an action without "write+dictate" setup forcing us to write either two or zero?
 
Sure, but when you look at Finubar's opinion of humans it is not precisely flattering, he just thinks that are fast growing powerful barbarians. He thinks humans can be of use yes, but he is also scared of what they might do. All elf interaction with humans is tainted by a measure of arrogance which I do not think is compatible with the insecurity you attribute to the Forestborn. It is not like we are planning to ignore them forever, just put it off until next turn.

Hell it even makes political sense to look into the most powerful faction first.
And I'm asking you to rid yourself of the assumption that the Asur and Eonir are homegenous in thought processes and trust Boney's ability in, for lack of a better word, "humanising" Elves. There were all sorts of assumptions about Dwarf thought processes before we really got to know them in Boney's world, and Boney's construction of the Dwarfs was in fact much more lenient than the general process GW would lead you to believe. For example, Dwarf obsessiveness with Grudging people has been toned down considerably, and Boney presented an absurdly wide specturm of Dwarf perspective that one would never expect if they just consumed canon Dwarf material.

Asarnil is perhaps the only Elf we really got to know, so our perspective is skewed because that's like only getting Kragg the Grim as your Dwarf contact. Asarnil was always going to be like that, but the assumption that no matter what Elves are always going to treat humans as a whole as children is a bit like generalising that all Dwarves think that resolving grudges is the most important thing ever. The Asur would never "lower themselves" to asking humans for help, but these Eonir approached us for support, something the proud Asur would never have done. I don't assume they will be like the proud assholes over the seas, because their history is fundamentally different.
 
And I'm asking you to rid yourself of the assumption that the Asur and Eonir are homegenous in thought processes and trust Boney's ability in, for lack of a better word, "humanising" Elves. There were all sorts of assumptions about Dwarf thought processes before we really got to know them in Boney's world, and Boney's construction of the Dwarfs was in fact much more lenient than the general process GW would lead you to believe. For example, Dwarf obsessiveness with Grudging people has been toned down considerably, and Boney presented an absurdly wide specturm of Dwarf perspective that one would never expect if they just consumed canon Dwarf material.

Asarnil is perhaps the only Elf we really got to know, so our perspective is skewed because that's like only getting Kragg the Grim as your Dwarf contact. Asarnil was always going to be like that, but the assumption that no matter what Elves are always going to treat humans as a whole as children is a bit like generalising that all Dwarves think that resolving grudges is the most important thing ever. The Asur would never "lower themselves" to asking humans for help, but these Eonir approached us for support, something the proud Asur would never have done. I don't assume they will be like the proud assholes over the seas, because their history is fundamentally different.

If you only get Kragg as your dwarf contact you will in fact get a decent view of dwarf culture, specifically of the Karaz Ankor. I mean you need to dial him down a notch or ten, but there is nothing atypical about how Kragg sees humans from that perspective.
 
Focusing on our planning: what are we looking to have each member do, specifically?

Johann makes some sense, but I wonder how useful 'tale of metal' is going to be. I think he might be the first one to drop. Unless he bonds with the champion and wins us an elf advocate.

Max we can fill time with papers with, plus he basically knows what we know.... I think that as the smith-metalmage dwarf friend, he's a good person to try and interface between the elven crafters and the runesmith, and to put together what is know about the structure and materials involved in creating waystones.

Pan I want for researching on how to take the elven trees and grow a version for Sylvania and kislev.

Egrimm I want with us studying how the stones and trees take in magic and send it on, without creating Dhar. Or, if the stones are instead something more like runecraft- a bank or levee of more reality that bends a naturally existing flow of magic- how the effect is established and what it's extent is.

I want the dwarf on examining the stones for runes, tabulating the runes found, and estimating how much is recognizable.

After that he can do a library dive and/or talk to every master that is willing to hear him or and decide what they are willing to reveal.
 
Focusing on our planning: what are we looking to have each member do, specifically?

Johann makes some sense, but I wonder how useful 'tale of metal' is going to be. I think he might be the first one to drop. Unless he bonds with the champion and wins us an elf advocate.

Max we can fill time with papers with, plus he basically knows what we know.... I think that as the smith-metalmage dwarf friend, he's a good person to try and interface between the elven crafters and the runesmith, and to put together what is know about the structure and materials involved in creating waystones.

Pan I want for researching on how to take the elven trees and grow a version for Sylvania and kislev.

Egrimm I want with us studying how the stones and trees take in magic and send it on, without creating Dhar. Or, if the stones are instead something more like runecraft- a bank or levee of more reality that bends a naturally existing flow of magic- how the effect is established and what it's extent is.

I want the dwarf on examining the stones for runes, tabulating the runes found, and estimating how much is recognizable.

After that he can do a library dive and/or talk to every master that is willing to hear him or and decide what they are willing to reveal.
Johann's primary assets when it comes to research are Tale of Metal and Breach the Unknown, and neither of those spells are going to be wise to use for the Waystone Project. I'm pretty sure he'd break if he tried to use them on a Waystone. Aside from that Johann is a decent engineer, but there isn't much engineering knowledge that is required here, and he doesn't have enchantment or Alchemy. It kinda sucks but for the Waystone project itself it's not looking like a good fit. Thankfully the Kadoh action provided an avenue for him, he's a naturally likable guy and pretty punchy, so he can make allies. Not sure how far we can use him for that though.
 
[x] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
[x] Plan WEB-MAT & Culture
[x] Plan Don't Ignore Engrim
 
To be honest I am not sure we can keep Johann busy enough to justify his presence in Web Mat given that his primary means of research is rubbing his brain on the weird magic. Waystones are not safe for brain rubbing and are not likely to get any more so.
 
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