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Plus, they might have taken the danger to heart and built some ships of their own, which could put quite a hole in their factory growth

My bet is that building out juvenat is eating most of all of their exponential growth, they may be exactly where we left them in terms of production. Call it a 30% chance.

Generally torpedoes are fired in a spread pattern, like buckshot, so the more you put down range the more likely you are to hit. They are also great at controlling the terrain and blocking lines of approach, coupled with their technically infinite range, it seems like a good fit for a long range ship.

We've got that networked missile tech that would make torpedo boats a heck of a lot more dangerous, especially with active stealth on the torpedos.

Well I understand what you want to do and the logic behind it, other people's commentary makes sense as well that the Imperium may not use Psi Shield tech as efficiently and as widely distributed as we would like them to. Unfortunately the Imperium is not very good at doing logical things, because logic is viewed as a suspicious element in these superstitious times (thanks Tzeentch!).

The most important question to consider, with psy shields, is production costs. It looks like you could build multiple destroyers for the cost of psy-shielding a large building, and I don't think the empire can actually support building any of it even if we gave them free samples and blueprints.
 
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[X] Power armour aesthetic: Red heavy plating
[X] Write-in (power armor aesthetic): Reference pic
-[X] While you think that black is objectively the best color, Cia has her own preferences too. And black and red do go well together. The end product for your power armor is quite intimidating, a black armor with red accents. Especially when combined with the aura of strength its mechanical-yet-clean bulwark conveys. Cia's new absolutely enormous sword adds to the intimidation factor quite nicely too.
[X] Power armour aesthetic: Skip the Arm Cannon
 
My bet is that building out juvenat is eating most of all of their exponential growth, they may be exactly where we left them in terms of production. Call it a 30% chance.

I really don't think the civilization that unified on a nat 100 has a 1/3rd chance to being that idiotically self destructive, but if they are that's OK. We can take a third of that they have and do 6 actions worth of nothing but building factories with just enough research for Vita to not go mad and then make our ships before we leave.
 
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The most important question to consider, with psy shields, is production costs. It looks like you could build multiple destroyers for the cost of psy-shielding a large building, and I don't think the empire can actually support building any of it even if we gave them free samples and blueprints.
Those are the ones you want to make that cheaper(integrated, regenerating):
-[] Small-scale design-integrated psychic shielding (150 RP) You could take this approach a step further, and integrate the psychic shielding into the designs of bots, vehicles and small installations from the start. (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic for bots, vehicles and small installations. Will unlock research to make this shielding better) requires Personal-sized Psychic shielding

-[] Large-scale Design-integrated psychic shielding (250 RP) Start installing this shielding into hull plates as the norm. Every ship will have psychic shielding (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic for all ships and platforms. Will unlock research to make this shielding better)

-[] Machine Spirit-controlled Psychic Shields (50 RP) You think it's possible to integrate machine spirits into your chaos shielding, which would probably make it more effective in almost every way except cost. (Unlocks new kinds of psychic shielding that are more resistant to damage, potentially self-repairing and more) Requires Machine Spirit Chaos resistance.
 
There's a bunch of really good machine spirit tech related to psychic shields and psytech that I'd like to get to. Hopefully we can start fitting this stuff in next turn:

-[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (100 RP) You think the reason that the machine spirits resist chaos is because they understand their purpose to some extent, and the entire neural network needs to be corrupted to corrupt that purpose, which is harder. There's also emotional simulation that's going on in there. (Improves the basal resistance of machine spirits to chaos corruption. May unlock further technology down this chain, as well as half of the requirements to integrate machine spirits with psychic shielding.)

-[] Psytech Machine spirits (100 RP) You don't think that machine spirits can be psychically active. However, from what you understand of psytech it's a temperamental and difficult discipline, and you think that integrating machine spirits into the construction of psytech might improve its reliability and performance. (Improves psytech, at the cost of making it somewhat more expensive. May lead to more advanced versions for more advanced psytech, and may contribute to better psychic shields)

-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) As it stands, you can integrate machine spirits into small things. Expanding that to military installations and ships is going to require designing even more complex networks and figuring out how to make them work. With Anexa's insights you think it's eminently possible thought (Unlocks machine-spirit equipped versions of frigate-sized or smaller ships and platforms, as well as most defensive installations. Unlocks more research for machine spirits for larger ships & platforms.)

-[] Machine Spirit-controlled Psychic Shields (50 RP) You think it's possible to integrate machine spirits into your chaos shielding, which would probably make it more effective in almost every way except cost. (Unlocks new kinds of psychic shielding that are more resistant to damage, potentially self-repairing and more) Requires Machine Spirit Chaos resistance.

It might even get discounted by the Scrapcode Immunity and psytech researches it looks like we're doing this turn.
 
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For literal production cost, there's also a tech available that specifically reduces psy shield BP per point.

While the cost of maintaining our type of psy shields under strain would be extremely limiting for the Imperium, it wouldn't be totally prohibitive - it would just mean that like most higher technology they would only use it in select places. Which could still be pretty useful depending on how stupidly they chose the places.
We've got that networked missile tech that would make torpedo boats a heck of a lot more dangerous, especially with active stealth on the torpedos.
Torpedoes are dumb weapons. They literally just run in straight lines. They don't really have anything to network about.

Vita could probably invent her own smart torpedoes if she wanted, and then network those. I think some factions use smart torpedoes in 40k, but don't remember which ones. Probably Eldar or Tau?
 
The design of psy shields has to be very, very tightly controlled, because that's something that would give chaos a major leg up in attempting to counter it. Giving it to the imperium in general is right out, they're too endemically penetrated by chaos cultists for that not to backfire even ignoring issues like how they'll misuse its warp sensing capabilities for even more oppression, or to piss in the cheerios of craftworlders who will blame us for that.

That even applies somewhat to providing it as black box 'archeotech'. Any general distribution to imperial governments means putting it in reach of chaos cultists for espionage, which then comes back to bite us in the form of them making effective countermeasures faster.

This isn't to say that we can't export the technology at all - but this is a critical and ideally secret military technology. Most of the logic about military exports in real life such as export/usage restrictions, providing export versions of the systems instead of the fully featured one we use, etc. are going to apply.

It'd have also helped with the power armor we made for Cia if we'd done it last turn, and doing it this turn wouldn't be any less important than the stealth techs which won't really come into play until we get back to Denva.
Well yes, that's why my plan does neither.

Last turn, it was a choice between something that would help the power armor for Cia, something that's only going to be used if things go wrong, and upgrading our entire robot force to prevent it from getting that bad in the first place.

I perceived the power armor as a safety net rather than as a military preparation for the immediate concern of xylaris boarding us again same turn basically. Our defensive onion with Cia is basically:

1. Don't get boarded <- Sensors
2. Don't let boarders ingress deeply enough for Cia to engage <- Bots
3. Don't let Cia get hit <- Improved Articulation (given power armor), bots for support
4. Don't let hits injure Cia <- Power armor
5. Don't let Cia die or be crippled from injuries <- bots for evac/cover, med school

Improved articulation acquired in time for power armor would have mostly helped on layer 3 by making her a bit more nimble and killy while using it.

By contrast, upgrades that apply to our bots universally have a much larger impact at layer 2, also impact layers 3 and 5, and are just below not getting boarded in the first place in terms of mitigating the actual threat to the ship as a whole.

I think this was a reasonable choice of trade-off, all told.
Using MS to control and filter sensory data to get more out of it. Another way to make sensors better, basically.
That might help for export sensors, but Vita is going to be better at that step than any machine spirit. If it happens, it'll mostly be for CP reductions I think.
 
1. Don't get boarded <- Sensors
2. Don't let boarders ingress deeply enough for Cia to engage <- Bots
3. Don't let Cia get hit <- Improved Articulation (given power armor), bots for support
4. Don't let hits injure Cia <- Power armor
5. Don't let Cia die or be crippled from injuries <- bots for evac/cover, med school

Forgetting personal void shields.

That might help for export sensors, but Vita is going to be better at that step than any machine spirit. If it happens, it'll mostly be for CP reductions I think.

I'm not convinced, actually. The nerves that control and filter our sensory data do so far better than we manually could, and the machine spirits that we improved for our bots do better than Vita manually could, I think the same might be true for sensors.
 
The design of psy shields has to be very, very tightly controlled, because that's something that would give chaos a major leg up in attempting to counter it.

That is not how Chaos works, the danger to psychic shields is primarily from daemons and if daemons could counter it by knowing the design then they would have already countered it by simply scrying some technician on Denva making it.
 
That is not how Chaos works, the danger to psychic shields is primarily from daemons and if daemons could counter it by knowing the design then they would have already countered it by simply scrying some technician on Denva making it.

Eh, it might take a proper chaos sorceror looking at the design and making copies to practice on and mess around with to find a way to counter it, and then teaching those tricks to demons, but it's not impossible.
 
Eh, it might take a proper chaos sorceror looking at the design and making copies to practice on and mess around with to find a way to counter it, and then teaching those tricks to demons, but it's not impossible.

By definition daemons possess greater insights into sorcery than any mortal follower of Chaos because those insights would melt a mortal brain, also they are going to get to practice against our shields every time we warp jump.
 
I am distinctly not buying the virtue of security by obscurity.

Our shields are unsubtle. That doesn't mean that daemons get no advantage from knowing about them - subtle temptations are a waste of effort on a literally mindless denier - but it does mean they don't have a trick that makes it easy to defeat them.
 
Our shields as they are will run into problems against Khorne and Nurgle daemons. Overwhelming power and mindless persistence can exhaust them.
 
Categorically we arent in a place where we can just survive atention of a powerfull deamon with a army at its back and call.
Likely there some hope in integrating machine spirits to Vita herself and gave her some measure of resistance. Or we can just steal Necron tech.
 
I did have it with more torpedoes, but I felt that not being able to poor macro shells on any target that gets to mid-range makes it vulnerable to being swarmed by destroyers and frigates that weren't targeted by the lances before they get close enough to launch torpedoes at close range or to launch a boarding party.

If you want anti-rush defenses, what about missiles? While shorter ranged, they have great burst damage and are cheaper. They also help against fighters/boarders.
 
By definition daemons possess greater insights into sorcery than any mortal follower of Chaos because those insights would melt a mortal brain, also they are going to get to practice against our shields every time we warp jump.

They might possess greater insights overall, but that doesn't mean that mortals don't have anything to contribute - and presumably it's different demons banging on our shields when we warp jump, whereas having captive psy shields to mess with would allow specific demons to get lots of practice. Like, Chaos isn;t stupid, if they get their hands on our psy shields they will start developing countermeasures.
 
We're heavily specialized in anti-Chaos because Bongo happened and we realized just how under-prepared we were for that extremely lethal threat that has apparently been stated as a major weakness for AI especially. I'm not sure where but that point gets brought up fairly frequently in the thread
So to follow up on this as we seem to have a lot of people not intimately familiar with this part of the lore, here's a brief summary on Abominable Intelligence in 40k (note I am fairly new to being a 40khead please correct me if I get any of this wrong):

A.I. is banned outright in the imperium for two main factors:
1) they are very good at everything
2) they cannot resist chaos corruption

To expand on point 1) the most infamous example of AI in 40k is the men of iron, a legion of warmachines that kept peace wtakes whatever galactic spanning human society existed during the dark age of technology. Their subsequent rebellion made the Horus heresy look like a minor scuffle, and almost singlehandedly wiped humanity out. This combined with the elder Fucking Up is what collapsed human society for the next 5 millennium. You probably already know all that, but what you might not remember is the men of iron weren't built by humanity- they were built by the men of stone.

See AI in 40k didn't really have restrictions like "don't self-improve" or "don't create new ai". So vita has the capacity to create a threat to the galaxy that could outright destroy the imperium and most existing civilizations to boot.

Now you might be wondering, "well hey that seems pretty useful, why didn't big E have another go with them?" That takes us to point 2:

No seriously, they cannot resist chaos corruption

Due to their materialist logic, AIs are especily vulnerable to Chaos corruption, seeing in Daemons only a powerful resource to be exploited and never noticing the taint that consequently inevitably overtakes the machine's mind.[4]

Pretty biased propaganda, but unfortunately accurate. AI cannot perceive warp influence or fight back against warp corruption. Conversely, daemons can pretty easily identify AI and manipulate them via scrapcode.

So how does this tie back to us?
Well, vita was specifically specced at character gen to have a resistance to this, but she is very much a special snowflake in that regard. No other ai out there had Vita's psychic shielding, making them all vulnerable to corruption. And all the shielding is doing is keeping them out. Once they're in-properly, actually in? They aren't leaving.

And trust me, in is what they want. All of the men of iron were wiped out, the men of stone have all been lost. Despite their attempts to get more created, the imperium has continhed to stamp out any potential ai presence, preventing them from reaching their might at the dark age of technology. Chaos corrupting Vita isn't just bad for us- it is literally their win condition for conquering the galaxy.

So yeah, nothing wrong with a little extra shielding.
 
Most of the above is accurate but regarding this:

Well, vita was specifically specced at character gen to have a resistance to this, but she is very much a special snowflake in that regard. No other ai out there had Vita's psychic shielding, making them all vulnerable to corruption. And all the shielding is doing is keeping them out. Once they're in-properly, actually in? They aren't leaving.

That is what the personality backups are for. We can eventually cure corruption, in an appropriately AI way by booting up the Vita from three weeks ago that did not have corruption points
 
"Chaos" getting it's hands on our shields and developing a countermeasure is still going to be subject to chaos not being a unified hive mind. Who learned about it, what faction they are in, and who they are enemies with would seen to matter a lot to whether we see anyone who can use it against us.

I really don't think the civilization that unified on a nat 100 has a 1/3rd chance to being that idiotically self destructive, but if they are that's OK

You are anthropomorphizing a civilization. The civilizational incentive is as you say. But.

Every single member of that civilization's personal incentive is not to die. Calling personal survival an idiotically self-destructive path is very contradictory.
 
You are anthropomorphizing a civilization. The civilizational incentive is as you say. But.

Every single member of that civilization's personal incentive is not to die. Calling personal survival an idiotically self-destructive path is very contradictory.

I'm not, I am expecting them to have institutional limits on that kind of behavior. After all from an individual perspective shooting all the bronze age aliens on Secundus in order to loot its resources also makes sense, but we are not expecting that to happen right?
 
Even when they are getting a hand on our psychic shields it's not an automatic win button.

It'd certainly help them understand, but the same as getting access to a ship's armor only helps you understand that armor's strength and weaknesses it'll be the same for the psychic shield.
You'll still need to be able to exert enough force to get past.

And we'll be able to adapt again to their adaptions. So the arm's race goes on and on.
 
So how does this tie back to us?
Well, vita was specifically specced at character gen to have a resistance to this, but she is very much a special snowflake in that regard. No other ai out there had Vita's psychic shielding, making them all vulnerable to corruption. And all the shielding is doing is keeping them out. Once they're in-properly, actually in? They aren't leaving.
I am pretty sure we have strong reason to believe that it really isn't one-touch-we-lose, though to be clear I am not saying we should flirt with possession.

Also, history note, Vita's shields according to quest lore were not at all unique - what they were is outmoded. Newer hulls didn't include them because they hadn't seemed to be necessary during the Golden Age, but Vita hadn't gotten updated before she was lost. Which is probably a key to the fall, though obviously direct information is lacking.
 
Just thought of something, when it comes to Juvenat it's not even true that all of them have an interest in ramping up production before before industry. It the objective is to get as much juvenat into as many people it makes sense to ramp up the industry first until you can give it to everyone rather than dribbling it in instead of industry. It's only the people who would age out in those few decades who would lose under those terms, but Denva has been undergoing a sustained population boom for half a century when we left the majority of the population are going to be young and thus able to wait.
 
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