Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Xon said:
A 'Basic Juvenat Production Facility' is probably something we want in there from day one, same with at least one Heavy Teleportarium. Better is two for redundancy
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In that regard, 2 Medbays and Repair Bays wouldn't be unwarranted either, one on each side of the ship to provide redundancy.

Can Repair Bays build/manufacture new fighters, bombers, etc? Small attack craft? I'm thinking like how nBAG had the Pegasus capable of that, only obviously more advanced in this case.
 
Right now, my main priority is having a fully combat-functional flagship ready in two turns, which means a budget of 29.1K BP Paying a surcharge for the mod slots is a fair price in exchange for lining things up so we'll be combat-ready in two turns without having to commit 100% of our actions to construction.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
Why are you interested in Teleportariums? Not that I don't hunger for them, but they are rather situational with our focus, unless we're wiling to really lean into upgrading our drone forces.
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Because Teleportariums are really rare, and that is just the smaller ones which can only move individual squads of space marines. A Teleportarium which can move lots of heavy armor (aka Titans)? Practically non-existent.

Also WH40k individual ship actions tend to involve lots of boarding, as void shields and engines will fail long before the hull itself does. It is also the only sane way to board another ship in the Warp, or move around a space hulk.

It is the sort of tactical flexibility which is next to impossible to replace.

Alectai said:
Right now, my main priority is having a fully combat-functional flagship ready in two turns, which means a budget of 29.1K BP Paying a surcharge for the mod slots is a fair price in exchange for lining things up so we'll be combat-ready in two turns without having to commit 100% of our actions to construction.
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Yes this is quite important, but if for whatever reason we hit 3 turns to build things the extra time in the turn could be spent on stuff which isn't "hit the floor running for fleet combat"
 
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I forgot the Tuned shields counted for weapon cramming so I've removed that from the plan. I could add that back in and sacrifice some installation space if need be.
 
Xon said:
Because Teleportariums are really rare, and that is just the smaller ones which can only move individual squads of space marines. A Teleportarium which can move lots of heavy armor (aka Titans)? Practically non-existent.

Also WH40k individual ship actions tend to involve lots of boarding, as void shields and engines will fail long before the hull itself does. It is also the only sane way to board another ship in the Warp, or move around a space hulk.

It is the sort of tactical flexibility which is next to impossible to replace.


Yes this is quite important, but if for whatever reason we hit 3 turns to build things the extra time in the turn could be spent on stuff which isn't "hit the floor running for fleet combat"
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... I don't think I can squeeze that in right away, but if you're okay with it, I can fit that in during the Fittings build phase when I'm filling the mod slots and remaining Cramming slots. But the priority right now is getting it combat functional.
 
I can see Vita having unpleasant flashbacks at the first hulk she runs across.

Did we just get teleportation for free? It seems like the kind of tech we'd need to research.
 
A minor point of fitting, but we should fit the manufactories first thing after getting the warp drive in. Every other module can be manufactured in-flight if need be, but if we have to run and don't have the manufactory we'll be up shit creek with a canoe but no paddles.
 
DecaffeinatedOwl said:
A minor point of fitting, but we should fit the manufactories first thing after getting the warp drive in. Every other module can be manufactured in-flight if need be, but if we have to run and don't have the manufactory we'll be up shit creek with a canoe but no paddles.
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Priority in my opinion is making sure the ship is fully functional in six construction actions, I'm willing to pay the surcharge on the mods and after-construction work if it means having this ship's core functionality online ASAP. I'd figure it'd be capable of repelling an attack fairly cleanly at that point unless it's a whole-ass splinter fleet or something.
 
I pressume we can also rush build a ship that has the barebones of extra modules just maybe 2.5k of factories and similar core amenities and the good armor and weapons built in the 6 actions so we can ensure we can run if needed and then the turn after we can backfill extra empty modules with any extra shinies or extra things we want? I wonder if we build with that in mind so make a big ship with extra space to fill out?
 
I think @Alectai has the right of it, we won't be hurting for BP to build in whatever is missing as we go.

I made another pass at mine (below) that has a 29,075 cost. I'm sticking with the mainly lance based loadout, primarily for range reasons. Copying Alectai's idea further I have swapped weapons around to focus on smaller targets. As a big slow ship we wont always get to dictate range, so building for a long range engagement prevents us from getting kited around. If we are facing a peer ship we should be able to keep the range open to turn around and kite them. I think macrocannons are fantastic weapons for mainline combatants that fight at medium/short range, but that's not where I want our ship to operate.

Also, if we are building this ship as a potential bug-out-bag it should have repair/manufacturing capabilities from the start. That way if we have to leave as soon as it is done we can rebuild elsewhere. Which brings up a very important question, @Neablis will we be able to move the Void Abacus from our old ship to the new one? If so, will that take an action or just happen for free when it is done?

[] Plan: Magellan
-[] Reference Image
-[] Grand Cruiser, 12,000 BP for base hull, 9000 x 2000 meters. 500 CP base
-[] Engines: 2 gravities for 800 BP
-[] Shields: medium for 800
-[] Armor: medium for 800
-[] Empty ship cost 16,900 BP, 12,000 BP "budget" available to fill the hull.
-[] Non-combat equipment (5,200 BP):
--[] Warp Drive (1200 BP)
--[] Warp Abacus Mounting (600 BP)
--[] Psychic Shielding (2400 BP)
--[] Repair Bay (1000 BP)
-[] Weapons (5,700 BP 300 CP Cost, 5,130 Size):
--[] 16x Light Lances (16x 100 = 1600 BP). Long range, hitscan burst weapons. Not excellent at sustained fire.
--[] 4x Heavy Lances (4x 400 = 1,600 BP). Long range, hitscan burst weapons. Not excellent at sustained fire.
--[] 1x Heavy Plasma Cannon (1x 1000 = 1,000 BP), Medium range, high-fire rate with incredible damage potential. Extremely effective against shields, less effective against armor.
--[] 2x Fighters (2x 100 BP, 50 CP = 200 BP, 100 CP)
--[] 2x Shuttles (2x 100 BP, 50 CP = 200 BP, 100 CP). Total 20 Shuttlecraft / 1000 Lift
--[] 2x Assault Shuttles (2x 150 BP, 50 CP = 300 BP, 100 CP). Total 20 Assault shuttles
--[] 8x Point Defense (8x 50 BP = 400 BP)
--[] 1x Heavy Teleportarium (1x 400 = 400 BP). Can teleport a large number of organics or robots onto enemy ships from long range. Enemy shields must be down.
-[] Combat Equipment (0 BP):
--[]None
-[] Number of modular build slots & their installations 19 / 20 Slots (1,275 BP, 510 CP):
--[]1x Crew Quarters (50 BP, 15 CP, 1 slot) 500 crew
--[]1x Basic Biology Research Lab (50 BP, 50 CP, 1 slot)
--[]1x Basic Technological Research Lab (50 BP, 50 CP, 1 slot)
--[]1x Captive Holding cells (25 BP, 10 CP, 1 slot) will allow you to hold 500 captives
--[]1x Medical facility (200 BP, 50 CP) 500 treatment rooms with autodocs capable of dealing with light injuries.
--[]1x Observatory (100 BP, 25 CP, 1 slot) Allows long-distance surveying of a system.
--[]5x Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP, 1 slot.) Total of +250 BP/action.
--[]2x Troop compartment (25 BP, 5 CP, 1 slot) Total of 20,000 soldiers or 1,000 medium tanks across the stars.
--[]1x Basic Juvenat Production Facility (250 BP, 50 CP, 1 slot)
-[] Final Cost: 29,075 BP, 1,310 CP
 
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JayTar said:
Well, it is my opinion that the Monastery diplomacy can wait one turn. Which is why my plan is almost exactly the same, except with that action swapped out.
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a bit late, but...

Like any good build order, the choice to do diplomacy is a stone that kills many birds. The obvious bit is just... getting eyes on them, generally getting started on finding a potential crewmate and outfitting Denva with the ability to defend itself using Psykers. But that's mid to long term stuff - Important stuff, but you want to know why it couldn't wait for next turn, so here we go:

The primary short term reason for diplomacy this turn is to get those research discounts - it's one of the few places where neablis has been very explicit that that's the reward. With Victan we only fail diplo on a nat1, and with the psi shield bribes the results table will favor us more overall. That priority itself is underlied by what I've been saying about staying ahead of the scrapcode demon - we can beat the pants off of it at adaptation with one hand tied behind our back, but we do have to actually put the work in.

With the switch from basic psytech to improved psychic shielding, a 20 RP of discounts total between miniaturized shielding and improved psy shielding would be enough to let us finish it in one research action, and then immediately apply it to our new ship's construction. (The "now 55/200" note is incorrect and left over from when it was basics of psytech - actual progress at end of turn will be 40/300)

The secondary reason of course, mainly a window trimming honesty, was taking the most dangerous thing a scrapcode containment breach could gun for and making it a harder target this turn.

Many birds, one stone. That's how you get ahead of AP hell.
 
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I really like this style of hull, nice choice.


--[] 16x Light Lances

Given the number of these, I'm assuming they are our main broadside, probably mounted right per side inside the hull in the thin vertical segment that segregates the wings from the main, near the bridge structures. Firing arcs would be from like 10⁰ to 100⁰, not quite dead ahead to just a bit aft, and prob like -15⁰ to 80⁰ vertical?

--[] 4x Heavy Lances

Probably our bow and stern guns- three forward and one aft, figure the stern gun is in that fork in the tail, and the forward ones would be the nosecone and the bits at the front of the wings where they join the main hull. I didn't think these would have more than like 10-15⁰ of aiming off of ship centerline.

--[] 1x Heavy Plasma Cannon (1x 1000 = 1,000 BP), Medium range, high-fire rate with incredible damage potential. Extremely effective against shields, less effective against armor.

I like to think this is a belly-mounted thing, out of view in the provided image. I'm going to assume a turret mount with a full 360⁰ rotation and the ability to shoot straight down. Gives us the most flexiblity in the ranges where we will need to be maneuvering. The rate of fire means this is probably our best gun for orbital bombardments too, if we need to scour a planet.

--[] 2x Fighters
--[] 2x Shuttles
--[] 2x Assault Shuttles

The obvious place for these is the big rear-facing vertical on the spine between the wings. Easy line-up when coming in, protected from every angle except directly behind and a bit above.

--[] 8x Point Defense

There's some hatches on the rear and wings that might work, but I think I'd rather assume they are invisible at the scale we are looking at and well-distributed around the ship.


...the more I look the more the geometry doesn't quite make sense, but it's ready to rationalize.
 
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Alright, here's my initial proposal.

Rationally, this is intended to be our mothership for a long while, the intention is to be a long-range sniper HQ, taking potshots at enemy forces from a relatively safe distance while we engage with our more expendable forces. Essentially like the mothership in Homeworld 2 after they get Sajuuk, just more effective in some ways.

This means a focus on being the core of a fight, heavy emphasis on long-range E-war, teleportation, and disabling ships from the inside after knocking out their shields.

As an aside, high maneuvering thrusters is kinda dumb imo on this scale of ship. It's slow and huge as fuck, I seriously doubt the viability or worth of it.

[] Plan: Mothership Draft
-[] Reference Image
-[] Hull: Grand Cruiser (12,000 BP, -500 CP)
-[] Engines: 2.5 Gravities (1100 BP)
-[] Shields: Medium (800 BP)
-[] Armor: Medium (800 BP)
-[] Empty hull cost: 12,000 + 1100 + 800 + 800 + 2,500 (No Shipyard Tax) = 17200, Budget for filling the hull is 12000 BP.
-[] Non-Combat Equipment (Does not contribute to Cramming)
--[] Warp Drive (1,200 BP)
--[] Warp Abacus Mounting (600 BP)
--[] Psychic Shielding (2,400 BP)
---[] Hull + Non-Combat Equipment Cost: 21400 BP
-[] Weapons:
--[] 2x Heavy Lances (800 BP)
--[] 4x Medium Lances (800 BP)
--[] 2x Medium Plasma Cannon (1000 BP)
--[] Heavy Plasma Cannon (1000 BP)
--[] 12x Point Defense (600 BP)
--[] 2x Shuttles (200 BP, -100 CP)
--[] 1x Assault Shuttle (150 BP, -50 CP)
--[] Heavy Teleportarium (400 BP)
---[] Total running cost: 21400 + 4950 = 26350 (4950 BP weapon cost, 4455 size cost, 7545 BP left of space budget)
-[] Combat Equipment:
--[] Heavy Machine Spirit Jammers (2400 BP)
--[] Medium Boarding Preparations (1200 BP)
---[] Total running cost 26350 + 2400 + 1200 = 29950 BP (7545 BP of space budget - 2400 BP - 1200 BP = 3945 BP of space budget)
--[] Installations: 3945 leftover BP means 39 modular build slots.
--[] 15x manufactories for (1500 BP, -750 CP)
--[] 1x Observatory (100 BP, -25 CP)
--[] 1x Basic Biology Research Lab (50 BP, -50 CP)
--[] 1x Basic Technological Research lab (50 BP, -50 CP)
--[] 1x Captive Holding cells (25 BP, -10 CP)
--[] 1x Juvenat production facility (250 BP, -50 CP)
--[] 1x Crew Quarters (50 BP, -15 CP)
--[] 10x Troop compartment (25 BP, -5 CP)
--[] 8 Empty modular slots (free)
---[] GRAND TOTAL: 26050 + 2275 BP = 28325 BP

This would be easier with a spreadsheet, in truth. I might whip one up just to streamline the process the next time I try my hand at shipmaking. Much easier to tweak things that way, and far less error prone.

avatar11792 said:
Combine that with Swarm Missile Networks (having missile datanet to coordinate strikes independently for maximum effect against single or multiple targets), and even a Phalanx would be filleted with enough missile swarms.
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Sounds like a lot of words when what you really just want is an Itano Circus. Or Macross Missile Massacre if you prefer that term.
 
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So, I have not been keeping track of exact ship designs, but how are we on counter-boarding? IIRC that's kind of the strategy a lot of factions like to use, and we might be particularly vulnerable to it.

(And also if we have a lot of bots in our ships we can invade planets much more easily.)
 
avatar11792 said:
Can we eventually research Lance Warheads? A Casaba Howitzer basically, detonate a plasma warhead in a short-lived containment field, channel it into an OP lance attack.

Combine that with Swarm Missile Networks (having missile datanet to coordinate strikes independently for maximum effect against single or multiple targets), and even a Phalanx would be filleted with enough missile swarms.
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I think the right way to go for the improved lances is something closer to the fusion beamers that are in the physics tree already.

For swarm missiles... hmm. I'll add a tech for that:
-[] Networked missiles (100 RP) The biggest danger to missiles is that they'll get shot down by fighters and point defense. If you can network them together to cooperate against those threats, more of the warheads will reach their targets. (Unlocks new combat equipment to make missiles more effective. May unlock more technology to make missiles smarter, longer ranged and generally more effective)

avatar11792 said:
Can Repair Bays build/manufacture new fighters, bombers, etc? Small attack craft? I'm thinking like how nBAG had the Pegasus capable of that, only obviously more advanced in this case.
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Hmm. Repair bays are basically manufactories that are optimized to repair damaged things instead of build new things. So they're more effective per cost (twice as good) and repair things without requiring actions at the cost of not being able to manufacture stuff from scratch. They can refill the existing hangers on the ship but not manufacture fighters for transferring to a ground-based starport or anything.

And to address other people's questions, yes the repair bay can be used to repair the ship it's built on, and manufactories can do the same thing (but half as efficiently and they require an action). So if you spend 500 BP on a repair bay, then take 1000 BP in damage it'll repair passively in 2 turns, or with 1000 bp of direct BP out of a construction action.

Xon said:
Because Teleportariums are really rare, and that is just the smaller ones which can only move individual squads of space marines. A Teleportarium which can move lots of heavy armor? Practically non-existent.

Also WH40k individual ship actions tend to involve lots of boarding, as void shields and engines will fail long before the hull itself does. It is also the only sane way to board another ship in the Warp.

It is the sort of tactical flexibility which is next to impossible to replace.
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If you build and use teleportariums you'll start to get research to make them better. Stuff like teleporting to and from a planet, or sending forces deeper into an enemy ship, or moving along higher-energy items like more powerful weapons or bombs.

Glau said:
Did we just get teleportation for free? It seems like the kind of tech we'd need to research.
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Yeah, you get it for free. It was one of the techs that came along with the advanced database. It's a bit limited still - can't send cargo too deep into the enemy ship, can't send super-dense/high-energy things so you can't carry a nuke along, etc.

Nightlord256 said:
Also, if we are building this ship as a potential bug-out-bag it should have repair/manufacturing capabilities from the start. That way if we have to leave as soon as it is done we can rebuild elsewhere. Which brings up a very important question, @Neablis will we be able to move the Void Abacus from our old ship to the new one? If so, will that take an action or just happen for free when it is done?
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That'll happen for free, on finishing construction of the new ship. You'll relocate your AI core, your warp abacus, your samples and your beans all at once when the ship is completed, and it won't require an action.

Oh. I've also reworked the available research page into different categories. Hopefully it's easier to find stuff, and this will codify specialties for Anexa as we go forward. I'll definitely be adding more categories as we progress.
 
Hold on, are we expecting combat in two turns? Maybe we should build the ship for immediate fighting power then, which probably means more Macrocannons than Lances for a sustained slugfest, or maybe a spread of weapon types for all ranges.
 
I like @Alectai's second version — it's a good balance between immediate combat capability, construction costs, and mission flexibility. I'd also vote for Magic School Bus — that kind of speedy explorer would be fun, though it'd be inherently less flexible than the Enterprise-like multimission ship that is my first choice. We wouldn't be able to do as much nationbuilding, I think.
 
@Neablis just to check, can Repair Bays be added later? They fall under Non-combat equipment which you say can't be, but they seem much less integral to the design than the Warp Drive or Psychic Shielding.
 
@Neablis
Does the 50% surcharge for retrofits apply to modules intentionally left empty, too or just to things like weapons and combat equipment?
Also:
Our Crew still needs crew space to live on our ship, right?
And:
How many BP per Action would Vita have if we for some warp-forsaken-reason left on a ship without Manufactories?
4.:
Ship CP only kicks in when we operate it, right?
So we could saturate our CP with Manufactories* to speedbuild it and then mothball excess Manufactories* to fit Ship into CP allowance?

* Or orbital manufactories, you get the idea.
 
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Xon said:
Because Teleportariums are really rare, and that is just the smaller ones which can only move individual squads of space marines. A Teleportarium which can move lots of heavy armor (aka Titans)? Practically non-existent.

Also WH40k individual ship actions tend to involve lots of boarding, as void shields and engines will fail long before the hull itself does. It is also the only sane way to board another ship in the Warp, or move around a space hulk.

It is the sort of tactical flexibility which is next to impossible to replace.
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It is also ideal for our best combat strategy: 'swarm them with unbreakable morale bots'. We may not be the best military commander, in fact I think your average guard general could win out on strategy, never mind the really elite factions like space marines, but we have large numbers of high tech robots that cost us nothing but build time to replace. We are the robot Nids.

Plus we can take ships and accept surrenders, good for our research focus and general sense of morality respectively.
 
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