Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[Toboe]

Is juvenant research behind this option? How far away are we from that, anyways?

Could we split this? Something like housing for 2.5 million people, and 25 orbital manufactories? Also, can the manufactories be manned, so that the people here can start building orbital infrastructure after we leave?

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Just Take it as 50 manufactories and build it up as an enclave for cogitare exploratums most favoured.

Slap on

-[] Organic-Machine control (200 RP) Allows you to hook humans into your own command-and-control loop, allowing you to turn over command duties of various bots to humans - though they'll only be able to command combat units. (Unlocks brain implants that allow a human to control some number of CP worth of combat bots/ships. There are more technologies to allow humans to command larger ships/manufacturing systems as well)

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And its civ-tech successor and the Enclave can operate the manufactories themselves.

From there they should be able to extend it for their own livingspace and maybe also a General civilian population.

 

[Chrestomanci]

We cannot really pretend to be a Rogue Trader to any official worth their salt, no Warrant of Trade and I do not think we know enough about them to convincingly forge one.

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What would stop us from pretending to be a Rogue Trader to any official worth their salt?
Every Rogue Trader is different, it would be a great way to explain our unusal ship design and any personal differences from Imperial norms. They are highly ranked, most Imperial officals would not have the autority to challenge a Rogue Trader.

A Warrant of Trade can be issued for a variety of purposes. It is plausible enough to claim to have inherited it from an ancestor, who received one by a High Lord of Terra in the 34th millenium.
Forging a Warrant of Trade is simple enough, it is a parchment with writing on it. We could just manufacture the Warrant based on a description in ficton. It would not withstand extensive scrutiny, but if anyone is subjects our ship or avatar to extensive scrutiny it would quickly become clear that they are dealing with an A.I.

Basicly a rough draft plan to get started on building a Shipyard for our new to be designed shipself while also sizing the station for its sweet loot and you know so people can live there.

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A Shipyard is not required, unless we plan to leave Denva with the ability to build ships.

Your custom ship is going to be a one-off custom-build. You'll probably build a temporary shipyard around it as part of its construction. The overall cost of the ship is going to be higher but you'll get more functionality.

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[Nightlord256]

Fantastic quest @Neablis, you've done a great job making the research impactful. I like that there will always be mysteries for us to explore. Quick question on last turn, were the Manufactories we promised each nation covered in BP set aside for diplomatic carrots or do we still need to build those?

For this turn we should spend another diplomatic action on stabilizing this new world order we've setup. We've got everyone to start trudging in the right direction, but I think we do need to give them a goal/carrot to run towards. I like the idea of turning the Navigator station into a beacon of hope / scientific progress. However, I do think we should hold off on any decisions until we full explore it and know what mystery boxes are inside of it. Especially since they might have some 'artifact' that improperly interfaced with their systems and is causing scrapcode.

I'm not sure if we should press on to secure the station this turn, or wait a turn and tech up psy defense. It sounds like finishing machine spirits will let us get some basic psy defense for our bots which could be useful.

I'll see if I can take a crack at a plan over lunch.

 

[Dimorphodon]

[] plan: Shipyard building draft

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It's way too early to start thinking about actually building the ship. We need to research a lot of ship related things (like buying able to build a heavy cruiser). And if you go through the ship shop list, you can see that if we want an actually decent ship that can at least run away convincingly and has enough weapons to fend off the most basic assault, we are going to spend an ungodly amount of VBP, like easily in the 10.000-15.000 range even we cheap out (which I would very much not want to do) so we need to increase our production capacity as much as we possibly can.

The main obstacle to this is how expensive the orbital manufacturers are (because forget about the deep void ones, they may as well be made of gold). We the amount of lift capacity we have now we can build like 7 manufactories per action.

 

[Karnax626]

It's way too early to start thinking about actually building the ship. We need to research a lot of ship related things (like buying able to build a heavy cruiser). And if you go through the ship shop list, you can see that if we want an actually decent ship that can at least run away convincingly and has enough weapons to fend off the most basic assault, we are going to spend an ungodly amount of VBP, like easily in the 10.000-15.000 range even we cheap out (which I would very much not want to do) so we need to increase our production capacity as much as we possibly can.

The main obstacle to this is how expensive the orbital manufacturers are (because forget about the deep void ones, they may as well be made of gold). We the amount of lift capacity we have now we can build like 7 manufactories per action.

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Our lift capacity actually outstrips our ground build capacity at the moment, 3,500 to 3,250 respectively.

 

[Dimorphodon]

Our lift capacity actually outstrips our ground build capacity at the moment, 3,500 to 3,250 respectively.

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Yeah, that's something we could easily fix, build 5 ground manufactories for 500 BP and now we are golden in that regard.

EDIT: So I have been doing some math and asuming we give the station to the future UND (United Nations of Denva), send the mechanicus team home and that we alocate 2 actions to construction it could look like this:

-[X] Construction 1: (650 GBP + 2600 (lifted)VBP + 50 VBP)
--[X] 5x Manufactories (500 GBP, 250 CP)
--[X] 5x Orbital Manufactory (2500 VBP, 250 CP)
--[X] Replenish Combat Losses (35 GBP)
--[X] Repair Shield (10 GBP)
--[X] Rent (105 GBP)
--[X] 1x (unfinished)Orbital Manufactory (100 VBP)

-[X] Construction 2: (3500 (lifted)VBP + 250 VBP)
--[X] 7x Orbital Manufactory (3500 VBP, 350 CP)
--[X] 1x (unfinished)Orbital Manufactory (250 VBP) (for a total of 350/500)

 

[Speedemon22]

We don't have to use the station for the people of Denva. We can build a space station to house people, something I asked about a while back.

 

[10ebbor10]

Also, aren't there other stations in the system?

 

[Speedemon22]

I'm sure there are but if I remember correctly, most of them were wrecks; either too damaged to be salvaged or not meant for human habitation. I could be wrong.

Anyway, I think this turn should consist of one diplo action with cracking the station ourselves, two construction actions getting Kyssler station set up as a manufacturing hub and one research action.

Anexa I still say should keep leveling until she hits 10. I don't think we desperatly need to research something this turn anyway. It would also be hilarious if Anexa started slinging old memes around, to Victan's confusion as to why Vita is facepalming so hard.

It's best if Victan does his passive this turn now that things have calmed down somewhat.

As for Sigulus? Lets give her a thank you package and send her home.

 

[DragonParadox]

A Warrant of Trade can be issued for a variety of purposes. It is plausible enough to claim to have inherited it from an ancestor, who received one by a High Lord of Terra in the 34th millenium.
Forging a Warrant of Trade is simple enough, it is a parchment with writing on it. We could just manufacture the Warrant based on a description in ficton. It would not withstand extensive scrutiny, but if anyone is subjects our ship or avatar to extensive scrutiny it would quickly become clear that they are dealing with an A.I.

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The Imperium of Man does not run on the Presumption of Innocence, it runs on the Presumption of Guilt. Unless we can prove we are a Rogue Trader to the satisfaction of the invariably paranoid imperial authorities the best we can hope is doors slammed in our face and the worst is 'Die Heretic!'

 

[AltF4152]

I did some sums, multiplications and a division by 2, turning the station into a shipyard is a discount of 15000 Void BP, 15 thousand.

A 5 million people space habitat costs 200 Thousand Void BP.

Making the shipyard requires us to invest BP, and it doesn't discount even a tenth of what it would cost to make an equivalent habitat to the station.

If we built 100 orbital manufactories, it would leave us pretty near our max CP, while giving us 5000 Void BP, which would take 40 turns to make the 5 million people station.

I would just give them the station as an habitat, making something like that would take like 40 turns, and i am pretty sure that it would be at most 3 turns of delay to not take the discount.

 

[Arbit]

There's also the station at the gas giant and some others around the system. The gas giant station seems like a better option as a manufacturing station to me.

Edit: At the gas giants actually. There are two of them.

 

[Chrestomanci]

[ ] Plan: Space Production
-[ ] Diplomacy: Maintaining Global Peace
--[ ] Try to step back from direct involvement, but keep strongly supporting the development of a unified Denva Secundus. Let Victan use Klyssar's Nest as a bargining chip if nessecary, a station that you will leave behind along with significant Void construction.
--[ ]Accept interview requests from reputable news organisations in every nation, visit enclaves to answer queries, and any other public method of spreading your message that everyone is better off working together. 'a rising tide lifts all ships'
-[] Construction:
--[] 2x Manufactory (200 BP, 100 CP)
--[ ] 12x Orbital Manufactory (Klyssar's Nest)(-3000 VBP, -600 CP)
-[ ] Research x2 (400 + 25 RP)
--[ ] Heavy Cruisers (275 + 25 Anexa RP/300 RP)
--[ ] A Study in Physics (25 + 125/150 RP)
--[ ] Improved Psychic shielding: (100 /500 RP)
-[ ][Klyssar's Nest] Use it for Industry. You can build 50 orbital manufactories & a medium shipyard at half-cost (in BP, not CP).
-[ ][Sigulus] Send her home She'll be happy to integrate back into one of the damaged enclaves on Denva secundus.
-[ ][ANEXA] Heavy Cruisers
-[ ] [VICTAN] Victan active action: Denva Diplomancy



Some nations are assuming the damaged enclaves will leave them disadvantaged, sending Sigulus home will help with that.

 

[Speedemon22]

We should also crack open the station's secret clams before we hand it over. Getting the command hub intact will certainly help them.

 

[Chrestomanci]

I would just give them the station as an habitat, making something like that would take like 40 turns, and i am pretty sure that it would be at most 3 turns of delay to not take the discount.

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Giving them the station as a habitat is cheaper than building them a habitat, but then why would we waste 40 turns on building them a habitat?
If we leave them a manufacturing station then they can build whatever they want, including a habitat if thats what they want.
On the other hand, if we leave them a habitat station that will be minimal help in establishing Void infrastucture.

There's also the station at the gas giant and some others around the system. The gas giant station seems like a better option as a manufacturing station to me.

Edit: At the gas giants actually. There are two of them.

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It will take time to explore those stations, depending on rolls they may be a better option or they may be worse.

Currently our source of VBP is mostly GBP that have been lifted by shuttle, and in the near future it will be Orbital Manufactories as well.
Deep Space Manufactories have a extremely high cost, but are more productive due to being located near asteroids. Gas Giant Manufactories are likely to have the same issue of an extremely high cost.

The Imperium of Man does not run on the Presumption of Innocence, it runs on the Presumption of Guilt. Unless we can prove we are a Rogue Trader to the satisfaction of the invariably paranoid imperial authorities the best we can hope is doors slammed in our face and the worst is 'Die Heretic!'

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Then how do Rogue Traders exist?
Many, if not all, Rogue Traders ships violate standard Imperial construction patterns and with Presumption of Guilt that means every world the visit automatically presumes they are Chaos ships.
We don't have the design of any Imperial ships, so our choice is Rogue Trader or Pirate or Chaos. We don't have any legitimate codes or orders, so our choice is Rogue Trader or Pirate or Chaos.

 

[DragonParadox]

Then how do Rogue Traders exist?
Many, if not all, Rogue Traders ships violate standard Imperial construction patterns and with Presumption of Guilt that means every world the visit automatically presumes they are Chaos ships.
We don't have the design of any Imperial ships, so our choice is Rogue Trader or Pirate or Chaos. We don't have any legitimate codes or orders, so our choice is Rogue Trader or Pirate or Chaos.

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By having complex webs of connections that can vouch for them. Rogue traders are powerful not because they have a piece of paper attesting to what they are, but because they are connected at the highest levels of Imperial power, the kind of people who want to trade with xenos or look for new worlds to exploit. If one of them should fall on such hard times as not to be recognized by anyone important, or should they be in an area where no one knows them... well who's to say if they ever did arrive in a system and if that looted ship over there used to belong to anyone but the local governor?

 

[10moorem II]

I feel like we should also start focusing on the Psyker enclaves, at the very least we should set up psychic shielding to prevent any possessions.

 

[Chrestomanci]

This plan has five actions, and there's only four available.

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1 Diplomacy 1 Construction 2 Research = 4 actions

By having complex webs of connections that can vouch for them. Rogue traders are powerful not because they have a piece of paper attesting to what they are, but because they are connected at the highest levels of Imperial power, the kind of people who want to trade with xenos or look for new worlds to exploit. If one of them should fall on such hard times as not to be recognized by anyone important, or should they be in an area where no one knows them... well who's to say if they ever did arrive in a system and if that looted ship over there used to belong to anyone but the local governor?

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If they are in an area where no one knows them(as many/most Rogue Traders are), they are still in control of an armed voidship. The local governor may be greedy enough to order an attack, and may have forces capable of winning the battle, but would still hold back due to the risk of retaliation.
Offically all Warrents are the Emperor's will, and they were at first, so a local governor ordering an attack would be guilty of Heresy. The Inquisition would arrest the governor for the crime of Heresy, even if the Trader doesn't have a connection to the highest levels of Imperial power.

Some Rogue Traders are connected at the highest levels of Imperial power, but many have inherited the Warrent. A Rogue Trader dynstay could have completed the intended task generations ago, lost their orginal connections to highest levels of Imperial power, but built another powerbase in the process.

 

[DragonParadox]

If they are in an area where no one knows them(as many/most Rogue Traders are), they are still in control of an armed voidship. The local governor may be greedy enough to order an attack, and may have forces capable of winning the battle, but would still hold back due to the risk of retaliation.
Offically all Warrents are the Emperor's will, and they were at first, so a local governor ordering an attack would be guilty of Heresy. The Inquisition would arrest the governor for the crime of Heresy, even if the Trader doesn't have a connection to the highest levels of Imperial power.

Some Rogue Traders are connected at the highest levels of Imperial power, but many have inherited the Warrent. A Rogue Trader dynstay could have completed the intended task generations ago, lost their orginal connections to highest levels of Imperial power, but built another powerbase in the process.

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Sure, but if you pretend to be Rogue Trader that means you are likely to have what would otherwise be dangerous xenos contraband, a zealous imperial would either want to shoot you just to be sure or deny you entry so your xenos stuff can't infect their station. You are asking us to pretend to be something high profile without any reasonable proof (connections or a good facsimile of a Warrant). Better to pretend we are ad mech, we have members of the Mechanicus with us and some understanding of their culture and codes. Hell with a bit of work we might even be able to hack our way into their files and manufacture records of a ship of our description like we did on Denva. Rogue Traders are too noticeable and too powerful to be good cover unless you have a good grasp of how they work IMO... and preferably a dead Rogue Trader in the hold who you are replacing.

 

[Dimorphodon]

[] Plan name: Orbital Industrialization
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular: Why did The Imperium leave the entire sector of Denva? Fascist states are not famous for their willingness to cede terrain.

-[] Diplomacy: Capture Klyssar Station's command center
--Can Victan Help with this? It doesn't look like his area of expertise. If he can then do so, if if he can not then Counterespionage & communication.

-[] Construction 1: (650 GBP + 2600 (lifted)VBP + 50 VBP)
--[] 5x Manufactories (500 GBP, 250 CP)
--[] 5x Orbital Manufactory (2500 VBP, 250 CP)
--[] Replenish Combat Losses (35 GBP)
--[] Repair Shield (10 GBP)
--[] Rent (105 GBP)
--[] 1x (unfinished)Orbital Manufactory (100 VBP)

-[] Construction 2: (3500 (lifted)VBP + 250 VBP)
--[] 7x Orbital Manufactory (3500 VBP, 350 CP)
--[] 1x (unfinished)Orbital Manufactory (250 VBP) (for a total of 350/500)

-[] Research: (200+25 From Anexa)
--[] A Study in Physics (125 + 25/150 RP)
--[]The Basics of Psytech (175 + Anexa's 25/200 RP)

-Crew:
--[] Anexa: Assist in "The Basics of Psytech"
--[] Victan: If he can, Help in diplomacy. If if he can not then Counterespionage & communication.

-What to do about Klyssar's Nest?
--[] Use it for People.

-What to do with Sigulus?
--[] Send her home


Ok, so several points:

• I do believe that giving the station to the people of Denva is a great idea, not only because is way cheaper than building one but also because it will act as a wonderful neutral ground and headquarters to the future UN of Denva and an even more wonderful stepping stone for the people of Denva to go into space by themselves. That said, I want that sweet loot, so better take it now, and in the process save the BP from maintaining the enclave.
• Exponential grow has become a bit more difficult now that we have moved to space, but I still think it's a great investment.
• I have included "The Basics of Psytech" because if we want to establish a communication with the monasteries and fish for another bean, this one and personal psi-shields are very important to have something to potentially offer them.
• The ungodly amount of BP in trade goods is there as a filler, basically I didn't have a better home for them, so this way at least we can have reserves for the next 4 turns (and if everything goes well, turn 18 will be the last time we pay rent).

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

1 Diplomacy 1 Construction 2 Research = 4 actions

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My mistake! I read manufactory as construction.

 

[Angle]

I want to spend another diplomatic action on uplift and fostering international cooperation, along with a chunk of BP. Victan's right, we have the means to help these people, and we should do so. And no, I don't think they'll sort it out well enough if we just leave them to their own devices.

 

[avatar11792]

It's way too early to start thinking about actually building the ship. We need to research a lot of ship related things (like buying able to build a heavy cruiser). And if you go through the ship shop list, you can see that if we want an actually decent ship that can at least run away convincingly and has enough weapons to fend off the most basic assault, we are going to spend an ungodly amount of VBP, like easily in the 10.000-15.000 range even we cheap out (which I would very much not want to do) so we need to increase our production capacity as much as we possibly can.

The main obstacle to this is how expensive the orbital manufacturers are (because forget about the deep void ones, they may as well be made of gold). We the amount of lift capacity we have now we can build like 7 manufactories per action.

Click to shrink...

I definitely want to research Advanced materials as well, that might potentially reduce the cost of manufacturing, or improve capability, or both. I can imagine ship superstructure might have some potential in that regard, and there's obvious benefits for a military units as well.

 

[Chrestomanci]

Sure, but if you pretend to be Rogue Trader that means you are likely to have what would otherwise be dangerous xenos contraband, a zealous imperial would either want to shoot you just to be sure or deny you entry so your xenos stuff can't infect their station. You are asking us to pretend to be something high profile without any reasonable proof (connections or a good facsimile of a Warrant). Better to pretend we are ad mech, we have members of the Mechanicus with us and some understanding of their culture and codes. Hell with a bit of work we might even be able to hack our way into their files and manufacture records of a ship of our description like we did on Denva. Rogue Traders are too noticeable and too powerful to be good cover unless you have a good grasp of how they work IMO... and preferably a dead Rogue Trader in the hold who you are replacing.

Click to shrink...

No, I am not asking to pretend to be a Rogue Trader without a facsimile of a Warrant. We can produce a falsified parchment easily enough, especiallly as each is unique
The whole point of pretending is so they don't suspect us, because any real investigation will discover that Vita is an AI no matter who we claim to be. Most Imperials do not have the authority to shoot the Rogue Trader just to be sure or deny entry.
Most Imperial officals would check our trade goods, not just a zealous imperial who suspects xenos contraband. Even the corrupt who would accept contraband would check to be sure of not being cheated.

We could pretend to be ad mech, but only Hertek Mechanicus. A non-Imperial ship will need an explaination, and we only have low level codes not anything high enough to be recognised as authorised for independant operation.

A major hacking success is a bit much to gamble on, but if we successfully insert records then that could help back up any pretence from Rogue Trader to Mechanicus. If we are successful at hacking we could probably rebuild our ship (or at least the exterior) to Imperial patterns, and use stolen codes to successfully disguse our ship and Vita as Magos.

"Rogue Traders are too noticeable and too powerful to be good cover unless you have a good grasp of how they work IMO" My objection to Mechanicus is that we don't have a good grasp on how they work at the level of ship captain Magos. Any ship travelling through the Warp is noticeable, and powerful.
Rogue Traders do not follow a set procedure like Mechanicus, there is nothing to get a good grasp on.

 

[meianmaru]

Ok, here is my plan. Brings us to our max GBP lift capacity. It also has good amounts of bribery involved in trying to grease the wheels to get some kind of unified politicial body existing. This is together with Klyssar's nest being the ultimate prize for some form of Unified Nations of Denva, only available for a limited time to whatever founding members there are.

And with the Klyssar's nest, we finally get to use an "Order" action for military/exploration. I've taken the approach of throwing bots with jammers to problems (and producing more of them), even if it causes us more losses. Basically, my write-in will hopefully shift potentially bad results to bots lost, not infrastructure destroyed.

On the research side of things, finishing physics so that we get the access to that branch of the tech-tree and can take a look. Meanwhile, the Machine Spirit -research should work well towards raising our CP limit. But even more importantly, also potentially help with our Chaos-shielding. And then getting started with the Void Abacus, as this will open up more on fundamental research about the warp, which should also help defending against it.

Oh, and a deep dive into what psykers can actually do, either by design or by accident. Should be probably mandatory reading before talking to anybody in the monasteries.

[] Plan: Dividing the Space Station Cake
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] You are interested about the monasteries of Denva and the psykers that they hold, but know little about the psychic individuals beyond the bare basics. That they are seen as a danger for everyone and are ostracized for it. However, you lack the concrete facts about what they can actually do, and on what scale. So you are going to take a look into the classification the Imperium and the Inquisition use, named charmingly "The Assignment". I mean really, how bad it can be?
-[] Orders (Klyssar's Nest): Conquer and explore the rest of Klyssar's nest. Use your light/medium bots to soak the losses to preserve your heavy bots where you can. More than that, try to preserve as much of the station as you can, even if it causes heavier losses for your bots.
-[] Diplomacy/Subversion (Denva): Contact Aevon about your analysis on the reaction the other nations are likely to have to their advantage in the long-term. Work together to avoid this. Dangle Klyssar's nest as a prize for nations who cooperate with each other, with Aevon presenting the idea. A neutral ground divided equally between the nations who come to an agreement for at least some form of permanent unified political forum... With those who don't do so of course being left out of the initial cutting and sharing of the space-station-cake. Bribe people with whatever non-military goods required where needed (Aevon itself included if it comes to that) to sweeten the deal.
-[] Construction (3300 BP = 3250 GBC (3500 LC) + 50 VBC)
--[] Construction slot, 1st (3300 BP)
---[] Repair Psychic Shielding: 95/100 -> 100/100 (50 BBP)
---[] Replenish Combat Losses (35 GBP)
---[] Trade goods, Aevon (25 GBP)
---[] Trade goods, bribes (65 GBP)
---[] Humanized Heavy Infantry Bots w/ MP-MSJ (125 GBP, 200 CP)
---[] 5x Manufactory (100 GBP, 50 CP)
---[] 5x Orbital Manufactory (500 void VBP, 50 CP)
-[] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[] A Study in Physics (125/150 -> 150/150 RP)
--[] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (35/200 -> 200/200 RP)
---[] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
--[] The workings of a Void Abacus (35/200 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 25 -> 0)
-[] Anexa active Action: Research (Secrets of the Machine Spirits)
-[] Victan active action: Subversion (Denva)
-[] Klyssar's Nest
--[] Use it for People
-[] Sigulus
--[] Send her home

EDIT: corrected VBP to GBP for basic (non-orbital) manufactories