Voting is open
[X] Plan Three Birds, Two Shells
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation

I feel cutting Detroit out of this decision would be a mistake.
 
not even 24 hours and already 6 more pages and some VERY long posts!

Sometimes it's exhausting to keep up with this thread. I won't even comment about the Discord.

also Yay, it was Toledo! Literally best case scenario for that roll!

[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
 
[X]Plan Sticking The Boot In
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
 
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[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
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So... regarding the Not!Cessnas, basically we have as many basic flight trainers as we might need in the mid term? even if we do have to cannibalize half for spares? Neat.
I could be wrong and @PoptartProdigy may want to correct me on this, but I suspect that the Victorian light propeller planes were not made in California and as such are not sabotaged.

Also yes, yes we do. Basic flight trainers, mail planes, we now have plenty of.

Knowing that there is a high chance of the slayer being descendant of the blazcowickz family tree,then i see him going back on the beatifull tradition of killing nazis
Sara Goldblum:

"Blazkowicz, Blazkowicz... Hm. Knew a Blazkowicz once. No surprise; there's a lot of Polish-Americans in Chicago."

"Good man. Knew how to throw my kind of party."

[smiles nostalgically]
 
Personally, I think letting our pilots participate in the final battle will make them feel a way better about how things have gone. They're the division that's bled the most for this conflict. Plus, even though we have small numbers, the Victorians lack any effective way to defend themselves, meaning our air force will be very effective.

I think our pilots deserve this chance. They're more than just an ancillary force to only be used when necessary, like the VAF.

Maybe, but I can't help but worry that we will very much be in need of our Air Force if not the planes then certainly experienced pilots to rebuild in the face of far greater foes. Even mineral risk seems wasteful, even if thematically appropriate. But no one with any sense and all the facts will question the courage of our Air Force on this campaign, or how they have paid a higher price for our freedoms than perhaps the army or navy propionately on this campaign.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
I could be wrong and @PoptartProdigy may want to correct me on this, but I suspect that the Victorian light propeller planes were not made in California and as such are not sabotaged.

Also yes, yes we do. Basic flight trainers, mail planes, we now have plenty of.

Sara Goldblum:

"Blazkowicz, Blazkowicz... Hm. Knew a Blazkowicz once. No surprise; there's a lot of Polish-Americans in Chicago."

"Good man. Knew how to throw my kind of party."

[smiles nostalgically]

Re Cessnas, it was more of a we might not have compatible spares in hand than Cali sabotage.

Though now that you mention mail planes... somebody ougt to do something Saint-Exupey flavored side story, even if it is one plane called "Le Petit Prince" with he mandatory Nose Art
 
I'm trying to get a sense for the reasoning behind the current bandwagon

[] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

...as contrary to my slightly write-in variant:

[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

...

Now, aside from the large bandwagon advantage R&R gained from being out immediately after the vote was opened, the two have been broadly comparable in popularity as far as I can tell. But the main question I want to ask is, for people who vote R&R and not RR&C...

Is it because you think it is specifically a bad idea to promise Detroit first pick of the Victorian supplies? Or for some other reason?

I would note that it is to our advantage to give Detroit the Victorian supplies. Remember that along the main and only practical route by which large Victorian forces can reach Chicago, Detroit is squarely between us and them. Detroit being a strong and well-defended place, that can resist a surprise attack or limited raids even if we don't have forces available to help them, benefits the Commonwealth.

Furthermore, the Commonwealth, while currently not so heavily industrialized that it can equip large armies, is much larger and has much more industrial and economic potential to expand and do so than Detroit. Detroit has amassed only light equipment for one division, and while part of that was likely deliberate on Victoria's part, there are surely other reasons. Detroit needs a windfall of this nature if it is to have any hope of equipping a large and formidable army.

By contrast, the Commonwealth will, within a few years, be able to mass-produce its own weapons on a large enough scale that the Victorian weapons captured during this campaign will no longer be such a valuable asset. Weapons manufactured by foreigners and designed according to Retroculture may not be the best choice for equipping our army in the long run, especially when we are not planning to use our army heavily in the immediate future.

On top of all of that... his is a city that took a tremendous risk for us, as well, and while the Commonwealth has sacrificed quite a lot to hold off the Victorians, we ultimately did so in our own interests as well as theirs. And if we had failed, it would be Detroit that would be taking an utterly brutal beating right now. For Detroit to see direct benefit in the form of military strengthening would not be unreasonable.

....

Note that in RR&C, we are not stopping to ask for Detroit's go-ahead, we are simply saying "this is what we are prepared to give you to make sure you're secure after the war." It is not, as the previous "Three Birds, Two Shells" plan was, stopping to have a political debate in the middle of a battle (assuming we'd need to; it's entirely possible that just as we've already had some high-level policy discussion about 'what if Toledo rebels,' so we have also had high-level policy discussion with the Detroiters about the same question).

It's a decision they may reasonably regard as high-handed, combined with a promise that will hopefully take the sting out by giving them better long-term prospects of not getting slapped around by Toledo. As opposed to just, y'know, the decision alone.



EDIT:

This sounds like a bad idea.

I don't like the precedent of giving allies veto authority over our foreign policy; consultation yes, but not final say. We don't want to be dicks, but what if the Detroit City Council get a sudden attack of stupidity and says no? Some influential councillor who lost family insists on Toledo Joe's head and manages to drag the rest of the council with him?
Basically, I don't want to give a local allied city-state veto authority over Commonwealth foreign policy, but I DO want to make damn sure that our (relatively) old friends don't start to feel like we're trampling over their backs in our haste to make new friends.

I don't want to put our military plans on hold until the Detroit City Council argues out the "can we trust Toledo" question for three days. But I do want to make it very clear to the Detroiters that we're not going to allow a future state of affairs where Toledo is a serious military threat to Detroit.

I don't want to set the precedent that the Commonwealth as a whole is easily paralyzed, Sejm-style, by the opposition of a single involved party's interests. But I also don't want to set the precedent that when we make strategic decisions we are unmindful of the interests of our local allies who have entrusted their future to us.

Basically I want the Commonwealth to be a person nobody ever regrets supporting if I can possibly avoid it. Even if that means giving them some shinies that we might theoretically take for ourselves. Especially in cases where them having the shinies benefits us, too.
 
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I'm trying to get a sense for the reasoning behind the current bandwagon

The write-in option is functionally the same as the default option. It's specifying something that would normally be either below the level of abstraction or part of a different vote entirely. If the later, it's unknown what exactly the other "diplo Detroit about Toledo" options we would even have as alternates to the one your plan offers. For the former, it's a meaningless difference between your write-in and the default option, as both would have the exact same in-story results. Such as how last vote's write-ins regarding capturing the freighters were unnecessary.

...Also, why is it called "Recuperation"? This campaign has lasted months, and our pilots who are ready to go have rested for weeks by now.
 
[x] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[x] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[x] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
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[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation

Is it because you think it is specifically a bad idea to promise Detroit first pick of the Victorian supplies?
Yes. Specifically, I feel that the exact proportion of the supplies that should be allotted to each party is something that should be examined in its totality rather than promising a lump off the top for each possible individual use until there's none left. I don't disagree that we should end up giving Detroit a hefty chunk of the supplies, but I want that decision to be made when the thread can look at the alternatives and analyze all of the opportunity costs.

Effectively your write in appends what should be a separate vote on what we do with the supplies into a decision being made on our foreign policy with respect to Toledo.
 
The write-in option is functionally the same as the default option. It's specifying something that would normally be either below the level of abstraction or part of a different vote entirely. If the later, it's unknown what exactly the other "diplo Detroit about Toledo" options we would even have as alternates to the one your plan offers. For the former, it's a meaningless difference between your write-in and the default option, as both would have the exact same in-story results. Such as how last vote's write-ins regarding capturing the freighters were unnecessary.
The main issue is that if we wait for the different vote in a future update, events may well outpace us. It may be weeks before we fully finish offloading the freighter (many of the items we're salvaging from it are live explosives after all), and have a full inventory of just what was on there. Other Victorian supplies, such as the stockpiles in Toledo and the field equipment in the hands of the Victorian armies, will also need to be divided up.

By the time we're in a position to make a final distribution of the spoils, the Detroiters may already have drawn their own conclusions about what it means for the future of Detroit, that we were so quick to accept Toledo as an ally on account of how big and strong their army is. Detroit may look at how they were sidelined here and remember this event in a way informed by their feelings in and of this moment- glad that Toledo switched sides, but worried at how quick the Commonwealth was to embrace the faction with more guns, even when historically that faction had been their enemy.

And changing their mind later may well be harder and more expensive than providing a strong gesture of our goodwill and commitment to their interests now.

So I would argue that it is to our advantage to not sideline them; even if we do not give them buy-in on this specific decision, we can still take concrete actions that show that they are not being forgotten or cast aside in any way.

...Also, why is it called "Recuperation"? This campaign has lasted months, and our pilots who are ready to go have rested for weeks by now.
Both plans contain the word "Recuperation," probably because of the idea that several have batted around that the Commonwealth Air Force needs to recuperate at the strategic level. Our future Air Force is going to look very unlike our past Air Force, and we're trying to avoid burning up the seed corn that will let us create this future Air Force.

While most of our surviving pilots have had considerable time to rest and recover from any physical wounds they may have, they nonetheless represent a very limited pool of experience and combat training. Keeping them out of battle is not so much about giving them time to recuperate personally, it's about giving the Air Force as a whole a chance to recover from its injuries and regrow into a stronger force.

Yes. Specifically, I feel that the exact proportion of the supplies that should be allotted to each party is something that should be examined in its totality rather than promising a lump off the top for each possible individual use until there's none left. I don't disagree that we should end up giving Detroit a hefty chunk of the supplies, but I want that decision to be made when the thread can look at the alternatives and analyze all of the opportunity costs.
I mean, we can make a basic commonsense assessment of the opportunity costs now. If we supply the Detroiters with arms to equip a division, that means we cannot immediately raise and equip an armed-like-Victorians division ourselves. In the short term, until such time as we build up an arms industry capable of better and more fully equipping our own forces, we would have one less division (multiply that out to maybe two or three depending on how big a loot pile we're talking about).

On the flip side of that, we may not WANT our divisions to be armed like Victorians, and replacing the Victorian arms with Commonwealth arms later would be inconvenient. Furthermore, if we use our armies frequently we are likely to run through our stocks of captured Victorian supplies quickly, without assurance of being able to get more. Whereas Detroit will probably not run through their stocks quickly, except in event of a war with Victoria, which is precisely when we'd want the supplies to be used and precisely when we'd have the best chance of replenishing them.

...

This isn't that hard of a question. Either we take the supplies, or we give them to Detroit, or wildcard options we give them to Toledo or to independent lakeshore communities. Or some combination of the above, with, say, a 40/40/10/10 split.

And Poptart may provide us with more mechanical information about the consequeunces of such actions, but you'll note that usually they haven't in this campaign so far- we are left to figure out for ourselves what will happen as a consequence of our choices, based on realistic 'simulation' of the actions we are taking. We can do that pretty well right now, even if we could in theory do it a little better later.

Effectively your write in appends what should be a separate vote on what we do with the supplies into a decision being made on our foreign policy with respect to Toledo.
That is because I am proposing to use one decision to compensate for the effects of the other.

The key issue here is the time element. Poptart's campaign updates usually represent events that take place days or weeks apart. Sure, eventually it will be time for us to vote on distribution of the captured Victorian supplies. But how many days or weeks will pass before we hold that vote? What will happen in that period of time, that we might forestall simply by making a commitment to Detroit that we're not just going to try to take everything for ourselves (as Victoria would in our shoes) or (worse yet from their perspective) give it all to Toledo?

Just because we want to keep our decisions and actions very separable, very neatly pigeonholed into different boxes, doesn't mean that the world around us is going to act in such a pigeonholed way. Whether we commit to providing captured Victorian supplies to Detroit now, or make no promises but do it anyway a few weeks from now, can have a significant effect on how Detroit sees us.

And how Detroit sees us affects the likelihood that they will become a devoted ally or a Commonwealth member state in the near future. And how outside powers see our relationship will in turn affect their calculations.

Actions have repercussions hat cannot be neatly pigeonholed. Sometimes it is necessary to take two "unrelated" actions for the sake of having the appropriate long-term effects.



EDIT:

Think about this in terms of what people hear in-universe.

Suppose someone in the Detroit city government asks Burns, "so, will we be getting weapons to make sure we can defend ourselves against Toledo in the future if they turn out to still be hostile to us and not just Victoria?" We know this question is on Detroiters' minds, after all.

If Burns says "I want to wait until all the supplies have been tallied up and make a holistic decision based on the overall needs of everyone involved," then that comes across as an evasion. We're postponing making the decision, and to a politician that comes across as "I don't want to tell you what my decision is going to be, because you're not going to like it." Especially when the question is a fairly simple 'yes or no' thing.

Now sure, we OOC know that we fully intend not to forget about Detroit, but IC Burns can't make a verbal guarantee of something we as a thread haven't agreed to do yet.

...

By contrast, if Burns says "yes, you will get a nice large pile of captured Victorian supplies," he shows that he is committed to helping Detroit. The question is answered. They may worry about Burns not keeping his promises, but he won't come across as evasive, and that's important.

Being willing to promise people things now, rather than refusing to promise them anything until later when you feel like making a commitment one way or the other at the moment of maximum advantage, is one of the key ways to build up trust in a relationship. Nobody trusts a person who refuses to commit to things until the moment at which they know it will be advantageous to them to do so. Even if that's theoretically 'optimal' in a mechanistic robot sense, that is precisely the point.

It signals to other people that you are not just blandly and mechanistically pursuing some special idiosyncratic version of your own gain.

The people in the setting aren't mechanistic robots that do nothing until we vote on a decision to act, at which point they react in predictable mechanical ways to our decision. If a stimulus occurs in-game now, they will start reacting now, not waiting until we take the appropriate vote to make them feel good about the stimulus. In this case the stimulus is "oh hey, the Commonwealth is coordinating with Toledo and forgiving them for everything that's happened" and the likely response is "wait, if they're that happy to buddy up with Toledo, a city that's been our rival and even enemy and that tried to sell us out to the Viks, what does that say about how they feel about us?"

That question will arise immediately; it will not wait for us to make up our minds whether Detroit should get 30%, 40%, or 50% of the big pile of Victorian loot.
 
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Canon Omake: Let Us Gather At the (Raisin) River
Let Us Gather at the (Raisin) River
Early April.
Monroe, Michigan

Corporal Ida Graham hadn't seen anything quite like the set up that some fellow Commonwealth soldiers were setting up near her foxhole. For all the world, it looked like nothing more than a set of speakers that had been spray-painted olive drab at some point. Cables ran back out of sightto where a similarly painted truck was hidden in a copse of trees and camoflauge netting. It was almost dark--she could barely see them, but her curiosity got the best of her and she wriggled down the narrow trench line to get closer to the pair of uniformed men. As she got closer, she recognized the subdued insignia of a lieutenant on one, a sergeant for the other. She stared at them as they worked, then half-whispered.

"What's this shit, sir?" The voice of someone who has been in combat long enough to not really care about unidentified officers, but enough respect that she's taking him seriously. The man, who is young, younger than her she thinks, looks up and smiles.

"Psychological warfare, corporal." He is far, far too chipper for Ida's liking, but she'll deal.

"Psychological warfare?"

"Just wait." The pair make a few more adjustments, fuss with their equipment, and then the speakers crackle into life. There is static, then the speakers begin to blast music across the river towards the lightly held line on the other side of the Raisin. She recognizes the tune--an old hymn that's no doubt meant to evince sentimental feelings in the men on the other side.

Yes, we'll gather at the river,
The beautiful, the beautiful river;
Gather with the saints at the river
That flows by the throne of God.


She'd sung it herself more than a few times back home and Ida caught herself humming with the melody once or twice. As the last strains of the music died away, the lieutenant cleared his throat and spoke into a microphone. His voice was calm, soothing, and commanding all at once. He sounded almost like the guys from old radio broadcasts.

"Soldiers of Victoria! There is no need for you to continue fighting! Your navy has been defeated and your air force chased from the skies--you have no further support coming from Victoria! We don't want you to have to die here, in the mud, far away from your homes and your families. We want to live in peace, just as we are sure you wish to do! Continuing the fighting now, when you have no hope of retreat and no hope of resupply is hopeless!"

Ida glanced sidelong at the sergeant.

"Does this stuff really work on those assholes?"

"Sometimes," the man said. Shrugged. "Not as often as we'd like, but we have to try."

"Huh. Don't they mortar you guys?"

"They used to, but then they found out that mortaring us was a good way to get counter-batteried by heavy artillery, so they've left us alone." As the sergeant spoke, the lieutenant was continuing.

"If you surrender yourself to the soldiers of the Commonwealth, we promise you fair treatment according to the rules of the Geneva Convention! You will be given hot food, clean clothes, and a warm bunk. Isn't that better than sleeping in the mud? Then scavenging for food in a landscape already picked clean by your armies? We in the Commonwealth do not hold grudges--once you have surrendered, you are safe!" It went on like that for what seemed like hours. Alternating between achingly beautiful hymns and other sentimental music, perfectly primed to make scared, cold, young men think of home and the script that the officer was reading from, laying out the case for surrender.

Ida got used to it, though. She even dozed during one of the musical interludes, helmeted head draped forward against her chest and her rifle cradled in her lap. She was awoken by a soft hiss--one of the other soldiers in her section.

"Hey, Ida. Stand to. Sarge says someone's trying to come over the river." The lieutenant and his music were gone. How long had she slept? Ida hurriedly scrambled up to the lip of the narrow trench, leveling her rifle and staring down into the darkness, towards the river. She strained her ears, and then she could just hear it beneath the sound of the propaganda--the sloshing, splashing sound of someone trying to wade out of the river. Or several someones. She tightened her grip on her rifle--she'd shot enough of the Vicks trying to come up the riverbank that this wasn't new to her.

Off to the right, someone let off a burst with a machine gun, a line of tracers whipping down towards the river before the gun went silent and a hissing, whispered order passed down the line.

"Sergeant says hold your fucking fire, goddamn it," the soldier down the line from her said with a wry smile. Then another voice, shaky and young, from somewhere out in front.

"For God's sake, don't shoot! We surrender!" Tension immediately flared in her stomach. Her sergeant's voice, a deep baritone.

"Come forward! Slowly! Keep your fucking hands where we can see them!" Ida waited and then, out of the gloom, three young men materialized in Victorian uniform. They had ditched weaponry and accoutrements, except for helmets, and held their hands high over their heads. They were all soaked from the waist down, usually higher, and caked in river mud. All of them looked miserable. Ida hissed, beckoned them forward.

"One at a time!" The first one, with corporal's stripes on his arm, dropped into the trench and someone grabbed him. He was young, eighteen or nineteen with a pale, narrow face smeared in mud. Someone roughly shoved him over to one side so he could be searched while the other two were kept waiting, standing in front of what must have felt like a firing squad. The private murmured.

"He's clean." The other two came in and were likewise searched, both looking just as miserable as they were patted down for hidden weapons.

"Why wouldn't we be?" One of them muttered. He had no helmet, only a soft cap which curly red hair poked out from under. It made him look even more like a kid.

"We have to be careful," Ida said before she could stop herself. You weren't supposed to talk to prisoners. The man half-glared at her, but it was more of a sullen sulk. The other Victorian private spoke up, stammering.

"Y-you're really not going to shoot us? Or anything like that?"

"No. We don't shoot prisoners." The sergeant. "Ida, take someone and get them back to the company CP so they can be processed, then get back up here. And if you can find some coffee back there, don't fucking hog it this time."

"Yes sarge," Ida said, then nodded at the closest of her section-mates. "Romero, come on." The two of them prodded the Vicks out of the trench and started the slog back towards the company CP. The walk was silent for a long few minutes, then the nervous Vick spoke again.

"...Are we really gonna get hot food?"

"Shut up," said the Vick corporal.

"Yes, and you shut up," said Ida, annoyed. "Can't say you're gonna get Chicago's best steaks or a deep-dish pie or something, but it'll be hot and filling."

"...Wow." Said the Vick private. "...The lieutenant said if we listened to the Commie agitators, we'd just get lined up and shot. Or worse."

"Well, we don't shoot prisoners. Or torture them. Don't worry about that." Ida replied.

"We were just sitting out there in that observation post and, well…" the boy sighed. "...Didn't seem like waiting for artillery to drop on our heads was a good idea. So, um. We fired off some rounds and left some blood so they'd think we got taken by a patrol or something. Ditched our rifles in the river…" Ida blinked. They must have been thinking about surrendering for a while if they'd had a plan like that.

"Well. You're safe here," she finally said. "Maybe there'll even be coffee."

As it turned out, there was chickory coffee at the company CP, along with a very happy company intelligence officer.
 
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[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

Working to assure Detroit that we're still their ally, even though we're accepting help from Toledo, seems worthwhile to me.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

[X] Plan Three Birds, Two Shells
-[X] We will defer to the decision of the Detroit City Council on the matter of Toledo's aid; we are not acting solely for the Commonwealth but also as allies of the City of Detroit against hostile aggression. That being said, with the recent windfall of military surplus seized from Victorian lake vessels, we intend to lobby for the Detroit City Council to accept Toledo's generous offer.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

[] Plan Three Birds, Two Shells
-[] We will defer to the decision of the Detroit City Council on the matter of Toledo's aid; we are not acting solely for the Commonwealth but also as allies of the City of Detroit against hostile aggression. That being said, with the recent windfall of military surplus seized from Victorian lake vessels, we intend to lobby for the Detroit City Council to accept Toledo's generous offer.
-[] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
May I ask if there is a particular reason you did not vote for Plan "Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation?"

On the one hand, you accept a plan in which we unilaterally decide to accept Toledo's aid and coordinate an offensive with them. Fair enough, though I don't share that approach.

On the other hand, you accept a plan with a write-in, where we wait for permission of the Detroit City Council, while implicitly trying to bring them around by promising them captured Victorian weapons. Also fair enough, though I don't share that approach.

But in between those options, where I have a write-in saying "this is our decision and we are making it, but we are prepared to compensate and reassure the Detroit government by promising them the captured weapons..."

Do you oppose that option?

[blinks, feeling a bit confused]
 
May I ask if there is a particular reason you did not vote for Plan "Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation?"

On the one hand, you accept a plan in which we unilaterally decide to accept Toledo's aid and coordinate an offensive with them. Fair enough, though I don't share that approach.

On the other hand, you accept a plan with a write-in, where we wait for permission of the Detroit City Council, while implicitly trying to bring them around by promising them captured Victorian weapons. Also fair enough, though I don't share that approach.

But in between those options, where I have a write-in saying "this is our decision and we are making it, but we are prepared to compensate and reassure the Detroit government by promising them the captured weapons..."

Do you oppose that option?

[blinks, feeling a bit confused]
Because I honestly skipped the 4-6 pages of votes etc because I am busy having a job/life but still want to vote on this quest. What are that plan's parameters.
 
Because I honestly skipped the 4-6 pages of votes etc because I am busy having a job/life but still want to vote on this quest. What are that plan's parameters.
[] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

[X] Plan Three Birds, Two Shells
-[X] We will defer to the decision of the Detroit City Council on the matter of Toledo's aid; we are not acting solely for the Commonwealth but also as allies of the City of Detroit against hostile aggression. That being said, with the recent windfall of military surplus seized from Victorian lake vessels, we intend to lobby for the Detroit City Council to accept Toledo's generous offer.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
Because I honestly skipped the 4-6 pages of votes etc because I am busy having a job/life but still want to vote on this quest. What are that plan's parameters.
OK cool sorry if I pestered you.

I was wondering if there was a specific reason why you thought Plan A was good, and Plan C was good, but Plan B in the middle wouldn't be good. Which sounded like an interesting possibility and I was curious about it.
 
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