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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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uju32 said:
Realistically this exact contingency of a Toledo rebellion has been discussed by Burns and the Commonwealth government ever since it became clear we would win this, and the Toledo militia failed to appear on the Vic side.
So he's not exactly working off a blank slate.
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We still need to ensure that this question is answered by the legitimate political authority (which is the democratic soverignty of the people, which in this event is vested in the office of the Commonwealth's legislature and executive.)

We can't just have the military luridly doing shit without the okay from the Civilian government. Especially with that government currently in active communications, there is no excuse for not getting instructions from home.
 
AKuz said:
We still need to ensure that this question is answered by the legitimate political authority (which is the democratic soverignty of the people, which in this event is vested in the office of the Commonwealth's legislature and executive.)We can't just have the military luridly doing shit without the okay from the Civilian government. Especially with that government currently in active communications, there is no excuse for not getting instructions from home.
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Do remember that in the absence of reliable secure communications, military officers are often empowered by their governments to make foreign policy decisions. Burns knows the President's mind, and will have set out with a set of instructions about what the Commonwealth is and is not willing to accept. Preliminary agreements are fine,

The Commonwealth will send a proper negotiating team to hash out details.

Furthermore, note that these are customarily military decisions anyway.
Want a truce and help stomping on a mutual enemy? Yes. The civies can countermand it, but this is within a general officer's bailiwick. He's not admitting them to the Commonwealth or signing a binding treaty.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@PoptartProdigy , I trust that my write-in is acceptable?
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Sure.
Negentropy said:
Also, since I've noticed others doing it, are we allowed to vote on more than one plan?
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Yup! That line I always include about approval voting means that you may vote for any and all plans you wouldn't mind winning.
AKuz said:
Realistically Burns should have no fucking part in deciding our policy towards Toledo.

That's a political question that should be answered by a political body.

Personally I'd expect the Commonwealth to okay reconciliation with Toledo and full cooperation.

But again, that's a political question that should not be unilaterally decided by the military. It would set a bad precedent for the military undertaking it's own independant foreign policy, which is, uhhhhh, a fucking terrible idea.
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Laudable as your caution is, remember that, per the recent canonized omake, the Assistant Secretary of Defense For Munitions is presently in Detroit, was certainly consulted, and, given who she is, absolutely has conveyed this information back to the President. You saw Jack meeting with Burns because somebody told Burns, "hey boss, there's a crazy Toledan in lockup who says he has intelligence for you," not, "yo Hellfire, swing by the jailhouse today and subvert our fledgling democracy for half off!" ;)

While it might've been clearer, l'll acknowledge, the vote on Toledo, while it is a matter of the guy on the ground and in command saying, "yes, two extra divisions while assaulting what is currently a larger force sounds lovely, thanks," it is also something that will be cleared multiple times by at least two layers of the civilian government, including the highest office available, by the time it goes into effect.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Sure.

Yup! That line I always include about approval voting means that you may vote for any and all plans you wouldn't mind winning.

Laudable as your caution is, remember that, per the recent canonized omake, the Assistant Secretary of Defense For Munitions is presently in Detroit, was certainly consulted, and, given who she is, absolutely has conveyed this information back to the President. You saw Jack meeting with Burns because somebody told Burns, "hey boss, there's a crazy Toledan in lockup who says he has intelligence for you," not, "yo Hellfire, swing by the jailhouse today and subvert our fledgling democracy for half off!" ;)

While it might've been clearer, l'll acknowledge, the vote on Toledo, while it is a matter of the guy on the ground and in command saying, "yes, two extra divisions while assaulting what is currently a larger force sounds lovely, thanks," it is also something that will be cleared multiple times by at least two layers of the civilian government, including the highest office available, by the time it goes into effect.
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Okay. Thank you for that
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation

We were probably going to give Detroit the spare guns anyway, I see no reason not to maximise the political gain. Meanwhile, we'll let the Toledo troops bleed themselves on the Victorian rear while we keep our flyboys nice and safe. It's the least they can do for us and we can do for them, respectively.
PoptartProdigy said:
As for Cessnas, hoo boy. Strictly speaking, not Cessnas. The R-3 Vulture currently is represented by 214 planes in various states of repair or disrepair.
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I feel like you mean a fictional plane, but I can't help but imagine that you mean the actual Soviet biplane. Because that just seems accurate for Victoria.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
The VAF is split between people spitting fire and venom at their captors and those who are desperately confused about what they should be doing (under Geneva standards, no less!) and have defaulted to being as helpful as possible (this is what happens when you don't train your people to be captured, Victoria). The latter group has been able to say that they have identified twenty-one fighters as cleared for flight. A further twelve are downed for maintenance. Mostly engine problems.

And frankly, some of the twenty-one are only cleared because they're starting to run low.

As for Cessnas, hoo boy. Strictly speaking, not Cessnas. The R-3 Vulture currently is represented by 214 planes in various states of repair or disrepair.

It's also a piston-engine, unarmed scout plane with a low ceiling, horrible maneuverability, no speed, and with a structure that an M4A1 Carbine could savage, but you now can say that you own 214 of them.

Unloaded on the islands.
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So... regarding the Not!Cessnas, basically we have as many basic flight trainers as we might need in the mid term? even if we do have to cannibalize half for spares? Neat.

[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation

Addresses the potential weaknesses of my original workshopped idea. Yes we are giving up loot, but it was unsustainable loot, personally, I'm much happier with the looted ships.
 
[X]Plan Sticking The Boot In
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] Yes. Your pilots have fought in counter-insurgency operations for literal decades. They have a lot of institutional expertise and knowledge, and have dealt with anti-aircraft weapons before. Their aid will be invaluable, and you trust them. A twenty-five plane air wing is better than nothing.

Personally, I think letting our pilots participate in the final battle will make them feel a way better about how things have gone. They're the division that's bled the most for this conflict. Plus, even though we have small numbers, the Victorians lack any effective way to defend themselves, meaning our air force will be very effective.

I think our pilots deserve this chance. They're more than just an ancillary force to only be used when necessary, like the VAF.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
-[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Aug 7, 2019 at 8:36 AM, finished with 59 posts and 35 votes.
  • [X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
    -[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
    -[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
    [X] Plan Reconciliation, Recuperation, and Compensation
    -[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle. If Detroit feels alarm at Toledo's sudden about-face and reconciliation with the Commonwealth, they can take consolation in the fact that soon their arsenals will swell to bursting with the very large piles of captured Victorian supplies that will assuredly be falling into their hands.
    -[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
    [X] Plan Three Birds, Two Shells
    -[X] We will defer to the decision of the Detroit City Council on the matter of Toledo's aid; we are not acting solely for the Commonwealth but also as allies of the City of Detroit against hostile aggression. That being said, with the recent windfall of military surplus seized from Victorian lake vessels, we intend to lobby for the Detroit City Council to accept Toledo's generous offer.
    -[X] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.
    [X]Plan Sticking The Boot In
    -[X] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
    -[x] Yes. Your pilots have fought in counter-insurgency operations for literal decades. They have a lot of institutional expertise and knowledge, and have dealt with anti-aircraft weapons before. Their aid will be invaluable, and you trust them. A twenty-five plane air wing is better than nothing.
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[X] Plan Reconciliation and Recuperation
Worry about loot distribution after the war is done, not before.
 
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