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Hmm. This war alone would probably be enough to make quality two armed forces way easier, but if we get Toledo onside we can probably do it in 1 ap.
 
REQUESTING PARLEY STOP CANNOT TRANSMIT OVER RADIO FREQUENCIES WITHOUT CMC ATTENTION STOP VESSELS MUST BE DESTROYED TO MAINTAIN COVER STOP CAN SWIM STOP ABANDONING SHIP NOW

heheheheheh

Surprise Attack: Toledo vs. Victoria

Rolled: 14 vs. 4. Success
.


AHAHAHAHAHA! Get fu*ked you Vick bastards! Now how does it feel to be the victim of that which brought you to the top in the first place, huh!?

Okay back to seriousness this is hands down a god send. In addition to not having to deal with street warfare, we have the airport and its planes intact and we now have 2 experinced divisions ready and willing to fight for us. Christmas has come early, workers of Chicago. Rejoice and bathe in the salty tears of Victoria! At the same time we should probably place some spies to make sure they don't triples cross us later.
 
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Thank fuck. I thought we were about to be smited or, barring that, one of our allies/friends. Also happy that Toledo's apparent rivalry/stance with Detroit isn't one of those "HATE! HATE! BURN THEM ALIVE BECAUSE THEY'RE FROM DETROIT!" sort of things, but is instead one of just caution and paranoia and, better yet, that they're willing to see past that.

Question, what is the lore behind Toledo and the warlord there, both in canon and in this quest, if you don't mind me asking?

Known lore from the lawful evil pastry is this.
Low grade conflict going back and forth for the better part of the decade. Both cities achieved a decent amount of local prominence and started butting heads along the fence line. The Warlord came to power when it became clear that Detroit was vastly wealthier and more able to sustain a war (their military inadequacy in all other fields was not, at this time, known). He promised to keep Toledo safe from Detroit and the threat it posed.

In addition, there is my canonized Detroit perspective. Though that's only one perspective.

Thank fuck. I thought we were about to be smited or, barring that, one of our allies/friends. Also happy that Toledo's apparent rivalry/stance with Detroit isn't one of those "HATE! HATE! BURN THEM ALIVE BECAUSE THEY'RE FROM DETROIT!" sort of things, but is instead one of just caution and paranoia and, better yet, that they're willing to see past that.

Question, what is the lore behind Toledo and the warlord there, both in canon and in this quest, if you don't mind me asking?

Known lore from the lawful evil pastry is this.
Low grade conflict going back and forth for the better part of the decade. Both cities achieved a decent amount of local prominence and started butting heads along the fence line. The Warlord came to power when it became clear that Detroit was vastly wealthier and more able to sustain a war (their military inadequacy in all other fields was not, at this time, known). He promised to keep Toledo safe from Detroit and the threat it posed.

In addition there is my canonized Detroit perspective.
Dispatches from Detroit- 6b
Toledo and Detroit

I never intended to become a priest. Probably wouldn't have been bad at it, I think I could do a good sermon. Perhaps that's what these dispatches are, secular sermons. Now I've also found myself giving confession as well.

Since the last dispatch, more people have come to me, to tell me about their own encounters with Victoria. Police who looked the other way in a murder. Council members who didn't fight when they should have. Sailors was unloading at Buffalo, who when he saw his men press ganged, left with half crew, rather than risk them getting them. Talked about how they could be those in the Victoria navy. Those who identified a woman who had come in via boat as a runaway when the Victorian's came looking, lest they be thought of it instead. We all got our sins, big and small.

I don't want to get to down on us. Got the stories of bravery we couldn't tell either. The captains who smuggled people away. The dockworkers sabotaging Victoria repairs. Sometimes both, such as a man who claims to have murdered a Vic, but hid letting others take the punishment. With this new freedom we have, perhaps the greatest freedom is the freedom to admit what we have done, for all our previous submissiveness wouldn't save us.

Wouldn't save us. Good thought, cause I don't think it would. I talked about the occupation not being kind, had we acquiesced to the Victorians. But, more I think about it, that wasn't only it. We've had a few good years in Detroit. Ships have been coming in, more and more, and I see new faces all the time. Yet I've felt a sense of unease, dread and I think I know why. It was too good, and Victoria don't like it that good along lake Erie. Even if we had followed them, they would have purged us. Perhaps more kindly, a few missing politicians here, a few confiscated supplies, but we were looking to have trouble soon. No Victorian would stand for a Detroitian being richer.

But a lot of people coming to me now. Even a man who ran from Toledo. Now I'll be honest, I've had my fair share of feelings about Toledo. We offered to be friendly, they turned our people away. They elected the warlord and destroyed the ways. Years before they were the ones who called in Victoria to force the river. I got a list o' grievances.

But well, I'm a reporter, I need to listen to others. And, having been appointed some sort of guide, I feel obligated to act respectably, to listen. So, I listened to him, how he hated the Victorian's and got out, but still had his grievances with Detroit. He wanted Victoria gone, but was no friend of us. He listed em, such as the winter of 63' where we paid through the nose for the food. He says that money doesn't turn to food by magic, and Toledo tried to buy that food to, but got outbid. Granted, in the end, we both went hungry. On the river, he talked about how we cut off access to the other great lakes for their boats, which I wanted to point out was river tolls, not cut access, and they called in Victoria, but I held myself.

Said he was surprised we were willing to defy em, after the swamp meeting. For those of you who don't know, about 20 years ago back when I was full of Vigor, couple of our representatives met a couple of theirs, looking to…. Partner up might be a generous word, but at least calm things down. Whole thing went belly up, and they started shooting, or, according to the Warlord's propaganda, we did.

Now, granted, several people are probably thinking they have an idea what went on, and it rhymes with euphoria and starts with a V. And maybe that's true, though I talked to some people who were there, and they swear the shots started at the meeting, not outside, so it had to come from someone there. Even if it was an unexpected guest, it met someone was compromised.

Would be nice thought though. To think all our problems are going to be solved if we win this, and even Toledo won't prove to be assholes, they just got Victoria. Who knows, maybe they didn't actually elect the warlord, that was all orcastrated by an outside force, and soon as that's gone they will be happy to meet up with us. I doubt it though, Victoria was happy to help us along, but both of us knew that only one of us would really control this area. Maybe Victoria prevented us from deciding to control it together, that I could more believe, but there is so much bad blood now.

Still, I'm trying to be high minded these days. So, doing it some thinking, I do confess a little sympathy for Toledo these days. Chicago is mighty helpful, but part of me worries that we are just going to become a protectorate of theirs. Trading one master for another, more explicit, one. Presuming the "they are just like Victoria, only pretending to be nice now and will turn if they win (which they won't)" is the Victoria propaganda that I think it is…. Well it would be nice to not have to live in fear, but giving up your identify, your independence, not sure how I feel about it, haven't really considered it before.
 
He glares down at the map, and its depiction of Commonwealth positions. "We will not be a footnote," he growls, his fist clenching in his lap.

* * *
Surprise Attack: Toledo vs. Victoria

Rolled: 14 vs. 4. Success
.
I read that as Toledo vs. Commonwealth the first time around - probably because of the preceding line) and my heart just about stopped until I got to reading through the roll breakdown and saw they were up against the Victorians.
 
[ ] Plan Coalition and Rest
-[ ] Toledo's aid is welcome. They have made mistakes, but they would not be the first to ally with or abet the Victorians out of fear. After all, had you not acted as swiftly as you did, Detroit would currently be an enemy stronghold. You will accept Toledo's aid. They can find their redemption in the thickest and hardest parts of the battle.
-[ ] No. Your pilots have been through enough, and you need every bit of expert knowledge left to rebuild your air force. The Victorians may only have man-portable SAM systems, but you are unwilling to take the risk.

I support a plan like this. We can very much use the extra troops to surround and cut off the Victorian army (neatly nullifying the Russians' hopes of resupplying their army, too!)

And frankly, we badly need to repair our air forces. The planes we can hit them with from the air will be exactly the kind of planes shoulder-fired SAMs are most capable of engaging. Without very, very good reason to think the Victorians are much lighter on SAMs than we'd expect (given that they have all the AA weapons they'd scavenge from their own dead, and have expended NONE of them), I'd rather not risk it.

An air force capable of fighting Victoria will need to be equipped in a fundamentally different way than anything we have, and will need high-altitude, high-performance aircraft capable of avoiding air defenses their infantry can carry.

EDIT:

That said, Gwendolyn Harrelson, callsign "Solo-1," pilot of the A-1D Skyraider Dump Truck, is screaming at me right now inside my head. I stand by my support of @aceraptor 's plan, though.

@PoptartProdigy What's the artillery of Toledo's divisions like? Do they have tube guns as well (and if so, how many), or is it just infantry mortars?
I'd be surprised if they have much tube artillery. They don't have widespread room into which to disperse industrial production, and were a lot closer to Victorian eyes. While the Victorians don't respect heavy artillery, that doesn't mean they'll just let other people accumulate it.
 
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[ ] Plan Coalition and Rest

I'm in agreement with @Simon_Jester let's put the Toledos troops to use and finish off the vics no need to send our planes out it's time we look to the future and we will need these pilots if we want a well-trained and experienced air forces the pilots that survive this war they will be the building blocks towards that airforce.
 
The largest single bonuses we've seen in this quest so far came from overwhelming numbers.

And Poptart always, always places the "Numbers" modifier first, in every update I can remember.

It's possible that we just saw what happens when a fairly well prepared force with a 40:1 numerical advantage mobs a bunch of enemy troops after taking some pains to stack up other favorable advantages as well. Something like:

Toledo Militia Modifiers

Numbers: 7 points.
Intimate Knowledge of Area: 2 points.
Preplanned Night Attack: 1 point.
Troop Quality: 1 point.
Morale Because Vics Are Losing: 1 point.

Total Modifier: 12 points.

Totally Unguarded Victorian Headquarters Staff Modifiers

Troop Quality: 2 points.
The Toledoan Cook Poisoned The Chimichangas: -1 point.

well, I think I should pick up the phone, becuse you really called it simon.


man, I really did not see them having so many troops coming. I had assumed they had a force the Detroit militia could hold off, but it looks like no. They had suspiciously bad intel on what Detroits military was like. Ther army is quite possbly a match for ours depending on how much arty and heavy assets they have.
 
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well, I think I should pick up the phone, becuse you really called it simon.


man, I really did not see them having so many troops coming. I had assumed they had a force the Chicago militia could hold off, but it looks like no. They had suspiciously bad intel on what Chicagos military was like. Ther army is quite possbly a match for ours depending on how much arty and heavy assets they have.
Thanks, I'm super flattered, but, uh...

You mean "Detroit," not "Chicago," right?

With that said, remember that the Victorians had an army superior to this one in all respects save artillery and doctrine. It's quite possible that the Toledans won't be able to deploy this force a significant distance away from their home, or won't be able to deploy more than a fraction of it.

Not that that really matters, for our purposes.
 
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Personally i'm not that worried about Toledo's army right now for a number of reasons.
1) They just backstabbed Victoria and Victoria will remember that for the future.
2) Toledo from what I understand is just the city and its surrounding area a lot like chicago I doubt they have the capacity to engage in an offensive war with the supplies they currently have.
3) At the moment it is in there best interest to have us as friends if not they will be alone to face Victoria and even with there army they alone won't be enough to face the vics at this point in time.
 
Personally i'm not that worried about Toledo's army right now for a number of reasons.
1) They just backstabbed Victoria and Victoria will remember that for the future.
2) Toledo from what I understand is just the city and its surrounding area a lot like chicago
Only much much smaller and without the expansive trade network, so yes.

Honestly, I imagine this as the result of the Toledans massively stockpiling weapons and conscripting and training pretty much their entire able-bodied population, then calling up all the soldiers at once. They may well have effectively no reserve capacity to replace lost equipment, and limited ability to regenerate their existing stockpiles without outside support.
 
And the civilian sailors are probably just as shocked by being treated with care, and probably asking if we need to report them dead, or missing, or something to keep their families safe...

I don't know if this is a good idea. A reputation of "taking no prisoners" is a terrible thing to have, regardless of its falsity or the hostages held by Victorians.

-[ ] Toledo is welcome to stop their support of Victorian operations, but you'll thank them not to involve themselves in this battle. It wouldn't do for there to be any...misunderstandings. They can negotiate peace after the battle as a power on the defeated side. Their willingness to bow out will be counted in their favor, probably.

I think Detroit would thank us to do this; their attack on VAF and their broadcast is a done deal already, so I doubt there's any risk of a doublecross. I'd rather they engage fresh Victorians in their border or prepare for counterattacks in their land than swoop in and pick at a doomed force.
 
Honestly, I imagine this as the result of the Toledans massively stockpiling weapons and conscripting and training pretty much their entire able-bodied population, then calling up all the soldiers at once. They may well have effectively no reserve capacity to replace lost equipment, and limited ability to regenerate their existing stockpiles without outside support.
Good thing we have a bunch of division's worth of supplies kicking around as laker loot then, no? Admittedly handing that stuff off to the Toledans might make Detroit a little nervous, but it would save us from actually needing to recruit and train the divisions Poptart said we could equip with the loot.
 
Only much much smaller and without the expansive trade network, so yes.

Honestly, I imagine this as the result of the Toledans massively stockpiling weapons and conscripting and training pretty much their entire able-bodied population, then calling up all the soldiers at once. They may well have effectively no reserve capacity to replace lost equipment, and limited ability to regenerate their existing stockpiles without outside support.

Exactly from the last post by poptart the warlord of toledo poured Everything or close enough into his military I doubt he will be able to engage in a protracted offensive war anytime soon.
 
Thanks, I'm super flattered, but, uh...

You mean "Detroit," not "Chicago," right?

With that said, remember that the Victorians had an army superior to this one in all respects save artillery and doctrine. It's quite possible that the Toledans won't be able to deploy this force a significant distance away from their home, or won't be able to deploy more than a fraction of it.

Not that that really matters, for our purposes.

I don't know what you're talking about? what copy-paste error? but you raise a valid point. their army is likely built entirely for defense, or at most projecting power to Detroit, and might be lacking in heavy assets. Still, I would not be confident in fighting that force in the fight it was built for. Its also 3 divisions of well-trained troops. if they join up, that army gets hooked up to our military-industrial complex, putting us a logistical expansion away from doubling the force we can project.
 
Logan: Well...there is a God after all. Damn...Just Damn.

*Pulls out Old I-Pod...Hits Random as his Men Regroup*

YOU ALL EARNED SOME CLASSIC MUSIC...NONE OF THAT MODERN CRAP.

 
I don't know if this is a good idea. A reputation of "taking no prisoners" is a terrible thing to have, regardless of its falsity or the hostages held by Victorians.
It's kind of a bind.

If we broadcast the names of prisoners of war, if the CMC knows we've taken prisoners, they might strike at the prisoners' families to deter surrender by other troops later on.

If we don't, well, those men will be believed to be dead.

Either way the VIctorian government controls their nation's media and can continue brainwashing its soldiers and people into thinking we don't take prisoners.

Fighting totalitarian governments sucks; it's just much less bad than being conquered by them. :(

...

I think the best way to square this circle is to ask the individual prisoners what they want.

I think Detroit would thank us to do this; their attack on VAF and their broadcast is a done deal already, so I doubt there's any risk of a doublecross. I'd rather they engage fresh Victorians in their border or prepare for counterattacks in their land than swoop in and pick at a doomed force.
There aren't really any "fresh Victorians" left in their territory, or if there are, they're besieged pockets that Toledo Joe has probably already got surrounded by more than enough soldiers to keep them from making trouble- or he wouldn't be offering us the aid of his troops in the first place because they'd be very busy.

With their base at Toledo gone, the Victorians are unlikely to be able to reinforce with anything remotely meaningful; the Victorian field army now crumbling between Commonwealth and Toledoan forces is just about the only thing left in the theater. The more force we concentrate against it, the faster it dies and the lighter the overall allied casualties are.

Good thing we have a bunch of division's worth of supplies kicking around as laker loot then, no? Admittedly handing that stuff off to the Toledans might make Detroit a little nervous, but it would save us from actually needing to recruit and train the divisions Poptart said we could equip with the loot.
I'd strongly hesitate to do that.

Firstly, the Toledoan divisions probably represent everyone in Toledo capable of fighting, or a number equal to all the rifles Toledo could find to equip them with, or both. They can't possibly have much of a manpower reserve, and would not be able to sustain their current force mobilized for a long campaign away from their territory. By contrast, the three divisions of Commonwealth troops are much less than one percent of our population. We have a much deeper well of military personnel to draw from.

Secondly, in the future we are going to NEED to draw on that well, because the army we will eventually need to defeat Victoria in offensive operations will be far larger than our present forces plus those of the Toledoans combined. In the future we're going to be thinking not in terms of three divisions here and three divisions there, but in terms of raising dozens of divisions. It's the only way we can take on the Viks in the way we'd need to. So getting used to relying on new allies to supply us with the manpower we need, instead of building up our own training establishment, is unwise.

Thirdly, Detroit will immediately be wary if we start up-arming Toledo, especially if we do not correspondingly up-arm Detroit. Detroit is starting from a position of much weaker armed forces; even with the supplies and training we have already given them, their forces are less numerous and possibly less well equipped than what the Toledoans can field. I don't want to antagonize Detroit by arming Toledo after all that has happened.

Fourthly, Detroit will be able to sustain more troops than Toledo in the long run, anyway. Right now Detroit is weak because Victoria did a lot to keep them disarmed and terrified, and to some extent may have specifically been arming Toledo as a counterweight to keep Detroit from becoming an independent power. But Detroit was a physically larger city pre-Collapse, and has more going for it economically, even if both cities are very very far below their pre-Collapse peak. Toledo's divisions represent an unsustainable effort and if they integrate with the Commonwealth, even as allies, they will probably be standing down a lot of that military manpower to permit economic rebuilding. Detroit, meanwhile, can afford to pay and raise an army that will be able to use that windfall of Victorian equipment.

I don't know what you're talking about? what copy-paste error?
Look at the post of yours I quoted. You said "Chicago" in two places where I am pretty sure you meant to say "Detroit." No copy-pasting involved.

Its also 3 divisions of well-trained troops. if they join up, that army gets hooked up to our military-industrial complex, putting us a logistical expansion away from doubling the force we can project.
Sort of with the caveat that we won't get all those troops, realistically; this represents Toledo Joe constructing a war machine that trains and conscripts almost everyone it CAN train and conscript. The population of the city won't tolerate it if they don't have to, and if Commonwealth security guarantees are worth anything (they'd better be or Toledo is really screwed), then the Toledoans don't have to anymore after this war is over.
 
I agree with allowing Toledo to fight.

They've gone too far even for Victoria's taste in subtlety and trickery.
And Victoria's standing army is almost gone.

Which means Toledo Joe has made an enemy of Victoria at its weakest.
And while someone mentioned giving political clout to Joe, I see it as building goodwill.

The Commonwealth can only benefit from Detroit and Toledo having a working relationship (however chilly) with each other. Much less with itself.
 
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I like how you can see how unprofessional our troops act, joking around a lot and being kind of cavalier about their weapons. It's sutble, but it shows the troop quality 1/5-ness
 
Firstly, the Toledoan divisions probably represent everyone in Toledo capable of fighting, or a number equal to all the rifles Toledo could find to equip them with, or both. They can't possibly have much of a manpower reserve, and would not be able to sustain their current force mobilized for a long campaign away from their territory. By contrast, the three divisions of Commonwealth troops are much less than one percent of our population. We have a much deeper well of military personnel to draw from.

Secondly, in the future we are going to NEED to draw on that well, because the army we will eventually need to defeat Victoria in offensive operations will be far larger than our present forces plus those of the Toledoans combined. In the future we're going to be thinking not in terms of three divisions here and three divisions there, but in terms of raising dozens of divisions. It's the only way we can take on the Viks in the way we'd need to. So getting used to relying on new allies to supply us with the manpower we need, instead of building up our own training establishment, is unwise.

Thirdly, Detroit will immediately be wary if we start up-arming Toledo, especially if we do not correspondingly up-arm Detroit. Detroit is starting from a position of much weaker armed forces; even with the supplies and training we have already given them, their forces are less numerous and possibly less well equipped than what the Toledoans can field. I don't want to antagonize Detroit by arming Toledo after all that has happened.

Fourthly, Detroit will be able to sustain more troops than Toledo in the long run, anyway. Right now Detroit is weak because Victoria did a lot to keep them disarmed and terrified, and to some extent may have specifically been arming Toledo as a counterweight to keep Detroit from becoming an independent power. But Detroit was a physically larger city pre-Collapse, and has more going for it economically, even if both cities are very very far below their pre-Collapse peak. Toledo's divisions represent an unsustainable effort and if they integrate with the Commonwealth, even as allies, they will probably be standing down a lot of that military manpower to permit economic rebuilding. Detroit, meanwhile, can afford to pay and raise an army that will be able to use that windfall of Victorian equipment.

The irony of all this is that the best thing for both Toledo and Detroit would be to pull their strengths. Toldeo needs an economic powerhouse, and Detroit needs a force that can protect them while building up and help train them.

Look at the post of yours I quoted. You said "Chicago" in two places where I am pretty sure you meant to say "Detroit." No copy-pasting involved.
It was corrected after you said it. I'm pretty sure this was a joke, the implication being the reason for that was a copy-paste error.

As meniotioned earlier honest feelings are that the major problem with Toledo is that it may cause problems with Detroit. For two reasons.

The first is honest dislike, though given that the Victorian's never took the city, bombed the city, or greatly savaged the militia, we are probably not too bad there. Especially since we can always present their hosting Victoria as "what would you have done when the Victorian's rolled up, we never made contact with him". Also given their weird levels of paranoid, I think we can blame it on Victoria playing dirty tricks. It's probably even true.

The second is actually more concerning to me. That it represents a unilateral decision with and input from Detroit. If we are trying to charm them, I feel this might confirm a lot of fears about how little power they have. Granted, they know this already, but it's got to sting. So I'm somewhat tempted to go with a Write in,

[] ask the City Council, try to get them to agree to Welcome Toledo Aid

The problem is, of course, if they say no. Then we either lose out on the option I want or have to tell them, screw you, which is probably worse than not asking in the first place, so we need a way to influence them with pushing or threatening. Bribery works well here, as it leaves people less resentful, if only we had something, some large thing we could bribe them with that would also help calm any fears they had of Toledo attacking and show we were willing to let them stand on their own.

[] Ask the City council, use the loot from the ship raid to help influence them to agree to Welcome Toledo Aid

@PoptartProdigy does something like this seem workable? Do our diplomats feel like it would be likely to work?
 
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Burns has basically full control over the military situation because we got a supercrit on mobilization or something in turn four IIRC. We don't need to secure permission and this might be a 'better ask forgiveness than permission' moment. City councils are slow and argue a lot.
 
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