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I like this thing, but can't help but nitpick the tank designs.

Electro-Diesel Motive offered what was probably the most generic of the designs, even trying to pander a bit to the old Federal M system of classifications, having named its hunk of steel the "M9 Bunyan". It really didn't offer any elegant sort of solution towards the litany of problems that came with being a backwater in the middle of a broken continent, choosing instead the brute force approach of more tonnage. Yet it did do that remarkably well. Weighing in at an egregious 70 tons that was right at the upper limit of what the specifications requested. It was a very bulky thing compared to its brethren, just barely beating out the Abrams in width and beating it out considerably in height, what it did offer was a simple no nonsense design that while resource intensive, on account of sheer mass, should not actually be that difficult to produce. Of course the crapshoot with this as in all the designs was the gun. Everyone considered capable of possibly tackling the challenge of producing a high velocity high caliber gun was given detailed drawings of the M256A1 guns that General Burnside was happy to scrounge up for us and anything in the archives that could be found regarding the subject. Regardless, the fact was that basically no one in Chicago had experience working with the pressures that would be required to withstand a charge that could propel a 15 or 20 pound projectile at Mach 4 or more. At least 5 companies were taking their own cracks at producing an adequate copy of the Devil Brigade's bread and butter along with the state owned Norridge Arsenal, along with a smattering experimenting with other calibers in that general area. The Bunyan in particular was armed with the prospective xerox from Norridge. She took a moment to rub her temples before pulling out the report written by whatever tanker Burnside saw fit to throw at this particular company.

The frontal armor on the hull consists of a 12 inch Rolled Homogeneous Steel plate, face hardened, slanted back at 50 degrees from vertical but with the lower glacis plate only being around. Should be proof to anything short of an RPG-29, or any cannon short of 4 inches barring non slapdash ammunition. The turret's giving me real bad feelings though. There's this one shot trap because of the way they shaped the cheeks of the turret that they insisted couldn't be easily changed because of the specific way they're cramming the radio and battle management system into the turret. They've got space for an autoloader but in the spirit of compromise and having no idea what the Arsenal will produce if that doesn't work out it's also space for a fifth crew member to load the gun if needed. The internal ergonomics are respectable and the transmission looks like it should be able to take the 1000 hp engine they're cramming without too much issue but of course it's all down to the execution. Also if I'm not mistaken it does appear as if they've simple stolen a line drawing of the Commander's Cupola from a German Panther G, which is perhaps testament to the rush we've put on for this trial. The ground pressure will ultimately end up around 12 PSI but this will be a significantly slower vehicle than the Abrams and it'll guzzle gas like nobody's business. I recommend allowing this program to go forward with subsidy but it should be noted that at the moment it will be extremely difficult for the Commonwealth to produce these vehicles at a good speed on account of the need to produce armor plate of this thickness in one piece.
Also, moving these tanks around is going to be brutally hard given the parlous state of North American infrastructure. Few if any pre-Collapse bridges can be trusted to take one of these tanks without collapsing, a lot of ports on the Great Lakes won't have cranes capable of handling them, and there will be other weird problems like trying to have them drive along a road on a hillside and having the embankment blow out and turn into a mudslide, carrying the road and the tank with it.

Also, quite frankly we're in a weird position when it comes to tank armor. No realistic amount of armor we can put on a vehicle will stop modern shaped-charge warheads, because Chobham armor and ERA blocks aren't really an option for us, I suspect. Well, maybe ERA. Dunno.

Which means the real test of our tanks' armor is "can it stop a World War Two 85mm gun, yes or no?" That's the heaviest caliber of weapon likely to be fired at our tanks that they can plausibly be expected to resist.

Another problem is going to be a dearth of industrial facilities that are even capable of rolling thick steel plates for armor at all, since those were never common and would have been active targets for Russian/Victorian sabotage.

Lake Michigan Fabritech had essentially gone the exact opposite direction as the M9 and Jane felt an incredible urge from deep within her soul to just throw the proposal in the garbage and then the garbage into an incinerator. She had spent the almost every hour of Tuesday trying to shoot down the proposal but she was always just barely short of the consensus that would be necessary to send a strongly worded letter back to the producers about how they should very strongly consider never touching any Armored Fighting Vehicle ever again. On paper, it was incredibly promising clocking in at just over 25 tons with 2 crew members thanks to an incredible amount of automation. That same automation made the tank, if one could be so generous to call it as such, a mechanical train wreck that would require an impossibly complex supply chain to maintain. It mounted a 105mm gun that Marcus and Sons were attempting to reverse engineer from an incomplete schematic of the Royal Ordnance L7 someone had managed to fish up from the depths of hell which was in and of itself actually promising were it not for the fact that the small size of the vehicle allowed for only 22 rounds to be stored in the entire tank. There was no space for any sort of ammunition lockers or blast doors so if anything got through the pitiful 4 inch armor plate(which at least had the good graces to be the same thickness all around) the crew could kiss their sorry asses goodbye. The commander and driver were packed into the fighting compartment like sardines and all they had for an escape hatch was an unwieldy door at the back of the vehicle that required the driver to either crawl through a space that at one particularly egregious spot was only a foot and a half wide or accept their fate and die. The engine compartment didn't seem properly ventilated, the tracks were definitely too thin for a vehicle of this size, and worst of all the amount of electronics required and the Commonwealth's limited ability to produce them didn't even make the choice particularly cheap, sitting middle of the pack despite being the lightest seriously considered option.
What's this inspired by, by the way? I'm not sure you could cram a 105 L7 or similarly shaped gun into something that small even with everything you just said, but maybe someone pulled it off at some point.

SWWC is the premier manufacturer of heavy vehicles, particularly tractors, in Chicago which already gave them a leg up on most of their competitors in that they had all the machinery necessary to begin production given a period of retooling. More importantly they had more institutional experience in heavyweight vehicular design than any other single organization in the country. Their design was a joint project between themselves and Walker Ceramics which brought a level of reassurance as to the generous use of composite armor throughout the design, though the exact details of the armor were not disclosed allegedly for the sake of trade secrets but probably because it simply wasn't ready yet. The turret contained an internally developed 130mm gun, with the explicit caveat that they were flexible with the armament, and an adequate amount of space for radios and other important technical equipment. The turret itself was vaguely hexagonal in the sense that there were 6 distinct sections of armor, with the frontal plates being sloped back at a nearly excessive 70 degrees, with it being toned back in increments of 15 as you went towards the rear of the turret. The plates terminated upon reaching about half of the diameter of the bottom of the turret.
I'm having trouble visualizing this. I'm also a bit skeptical that Walker can come through with viable composite armor...

By comparison, the hull was fairly bland. It took an uncomfortably Soviet look in how low to the ground the hull was and just by the general look of the suspension but you couldn't argue with the results. The frontal armor thickness without accounting for angling was claimed to be equivalent to 350 millimeters of Rolled Homogeneous armor. Most other proposals that attempted to incorporate composite armor looked to be a wash and you thought that the SWWC had taken a huge step in the right direction by incorporating it into their vehicle. Weighing in at just short of 40 tons, it was not particularly resource intensive as far as tanks go, it offered almost incomparable survivability for its weight class and even the competition as a whole. Best of all its engine was a proven product already in widespread use throughout the Commonwealth for heavy vehicles, the 750 HP Whirlwind. Of course there was one very significant issue. Because of course there had to be. SWWC imported many of the components for its drive trains and engines from another cooperative in Milwaukee. The same Milwaukee that had recently been pressured into condemning the Commonwealth declaration of war on Victoria. While these were things that could be remedied with time, it did not change the fact that production of the Saber would hinge on whatever the neighbors decided on.
Hm. I'm... again a bit skeptical of having pulled this off as a design exercise. That's using basically the same kind of design logic as the T-72, with a larger gun, and coming in at lower weight.
 
What's this inspired by, by the way? I'm not sure you could cram a 105 L7 or similarly shaped gun into something that small even with everything you just said, but maybe someone pulled it off at some point.

My thought process here was basically "what if M1128 Stryker but nonsense"

I'm having trouble visualizing this. I'm also a bit skeptical that Walker can come through with viable composite armor...

Sorry, I kinda gave up on trying to describe it after a while. This has been laying in a document for almost a week now and I just wanted to get it out. It would be like the proposed Schmalturm turret on the Panther II design except the front plates are sloped back at that ridiculous angle, and then the cheek plates at a less ridiculous angle and so on and so forth. Not my best work. As for composite armor, I am sufficiently unconvinced that we have a consistent source of good rubber that I just took from the Discord conversation about the T-64 and its composite armor that's basically just a sandwiched steel plate.

Hm. I'm... again a bit skeptical of having pulled this off as a design exercise. That's using basically the same kind of design logic as the T-72, with a larger gun, and coming in at lower weight.

I can tweak the numbers a bit, but I felt that 100 years of design progress even in a place as chaotic as the old Midwest could let me fudge the numbers just a bit in our favor.

Also I tried to give the impression that absolutely everything here is extremely sudden, and that no one really has a good idea of what a tank is supposed to look like and be. I figured everyone's estimates and projections are going to be off partially from wanting to get the contract, and partially from just raw inexperience.
 
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What we would really need is a modernized casemate tank such as a STUG. That would save us the headache of having to design a turret and make production easier.

My suggestion would be to use the proposed chassis from SWWC and build a moderately sloped superstructure. It should be armed with a high-velocity main gun with a coaxial MG and some roof-mounted remote-operated weapons platform.
 
Well, I think our best bet is probably to come up with something vaguely T-54-ish or T-62-ish. We have a lot of the same design constraints that drove Soviet design (need to keep overall weight down, need to be immune to WWII antitank guns, lack of access to much manufacturing tech significantly beyond what the US historically had in the 1950s or so).

There are limits- we probably can't design the tank so that you have to be left handed and shorter than 5'2" tall to serve as a loader or something. But I think that's the direction we should take.

What we would really need is a modernized casemate tank such as a STUG. That would save us the headache of having to design a turret and make production easier.

My suggestion would be to use the proposed chassis from SWWC and build a moderately sloped superstructure. It should be armed with a high-velocity main gun with a coaxial MG and some roof-mounted remote-operated weapons platform.
As a first step towards viable armored fighting vehicles that's actually not a bad idea. It's not ideal as a tank, but it doesn't need to be unless we've grossly underestimated the opposition*. It does need to be something we can produce in quantity once our industrial base builds up, and something on which we can develop experience with actually fielding heavy AFVs in battle beyond the hundred or so tankers who ride with the Devil Brigade.
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*(though we may have to fight Victorians in Cold War Soviet tanks in the next war, so having a gun that can somehow breach the armor on a T-72 is pretty important)
 
I still think armored cars like the ERC-90 or VBC-90 are a good first step towards properly building AFVs.
They are, and they're closer to what we may have experience with, so you're not wrong.

The problem is, typical armored cars simply aren't designed to withstand anything more than small arms and maybe .50 cal-class armaments. They'd basically be a mass-produced and standardized substitute for the technicals we already operate. And that's a good thing... but it doesn't give us what we'd want from tanks, namely the ability to trade slams with the Victorian mechanized units, except for specific cases like dug-in ambush positions.

So if we had such armored cars, we'd still badly want something heavier.
 
I mean, the thing is that even if we make armored cars that can only stand up to 12.7mm and rocket propelled grenades, that's fine. Like, in the post-WW2 world most armored fighting vehicles couldn't stand up to dedicated anti-tank weapons, including the main gun of enemy MBTs. It wasn't until shit like complicated composite armor and ERA became a thing like 30 years later that it was possible to create AFVs with potential immunity to enemy fire.

The important thing for an AFV is not to be immune to enemy fire, but to be able to outmaneuver the enemy and to shoot first as far as I'm concerned. Armor is a nice bonus, but we can't rely on having thick enough or advanced enough armor to be immune to enemy fire right now in part due to our industrial and technological limitations. As a result, I think it's better to not try to be immune to enemy fire but instead to focus on something that fits our needs (mobile, armored, carries big boom, can be transported easily by rail or river, cheap/easy to manufacture) and not get stuck trying to make an uberwaffen like the Germans in WW2.
 
The cheapest variant would be to put something like a Carl Gustav on something like a Bren Carrier. If you gyrostabilize the mounting, you could even fire while driving. Combine that with a vehicle that has dual purpose mounted 20mm autocannons (high degree of elevation and depression i.e. also AA capable) and you have both the anti-armour and anti-personnel side covered.
 
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That could work, but a Carl Gustav or other recoilless rifle doesn't have the range/versatility of a proper 105mm or 120mm gun.
 
That's why I wrote the cheapest, not the best. We either need to look into a good smoothbore gun (due to the wider range of projectiles) or some sort of anti-tank missile.
 
Gun-armed armored cars seem like a promising next step, but we should probably have a heavy antitank missile program going. If we can build native-designed surface to air missiles, even bulky and crude ones, it should be doable, even if we have to settle for wire guidance.

I mean, the thing is that even if we make armored cars that can only stand up to 12.7mm and rocket propelled grenades, that's fine. Like, in the post-WW2 world most armored fighting vehicles couldn't stand up to dedicated anti-tank weapons, including the main gun of enemy MBTs. It wasn't until shit like complicated composite armor and ERA became a thing like 30 years later that it was possible to create AFVs with potential immunity to enemy fire.

The important thing for an AFV is not to be immune to enemy fire, but to be able to outmaneuver the enemy and to shoot first as far as I'm concerned. Armor is a nice bonus, but we can't rely on having thick enough or advanced enough armor to be immune to enemy fire right now in part due to our industrial and technological limitations. As a result, I think it's better to not try to be immune to enemy fire but instead to focus on something that fits our needs (mobile, armored, carries big boom, can be transported easily by rail or river, cheap/easy to manufacture) and not get stuck trying to make an uberwaffen like the Germans in WW2.
I basically agree that we need an AFV in the 'armored car' weight class as you describe. And, realistically, need it more pressingly than we need a forty or (God help us) seventy ton tank.

The big problem is that the Victorians run on schizo tech and that this somewhat complicates the picture.

On the one hand they are literally using significant numbers of T-34 tanks as a mobile element for deep penetration raids where possible, which means that we kiiind of want something mobile on the ground capable of confronting that, including something capable of taking the offensive in the face of that threat if they ever think of parking the tank hull down behind a ridge and letting us come to them.

On the other hand their infantry is probably toting shoulder-fired antitank rockets from the Cold War or possibly even more advanced simply because it's not worth the Russians' trouble to replicate an RPG-2 or whatever bullshit archaeotech Lind would have them using. Aaaaand it's very very possible that the Victorians will get ahead of less primitive Cold War style Russian tanks at any time.

So there's a desire to build tanks capable of engaging the Victorians in a tank battle, and if they stick to T-34-85s this isn't actually hard, but at the same time any tank we build on that scale may be targeted by Cold War weapons which makes things a lot harder.

In the short term of the next five years, saying "fuckit" and just trying to get an armored car design mass-produced that will let us standardize and replace the hodge-podge of technicals we use at present, plus mounting heavier weapons like 90mm guns that are reliably capable of breaking the armor on their current T-34 force, is probably good enough, I agree.

On the other hand, some day we're going to want to take the offensive, and I think trying to have more heavily protected vehicles will be desirable at that time.
 
Conrad W. Ogilvy: A faceless soldier whose name was picked from a casualty list, glorified and on a pedestal for propaganda, or a legitimate example of enemy valor? A true believer in the retroculture cause, an everyman demonstrating uncommon valor for his fellow mates, or an unwilling conscript who fought for his life?

The choice is yours.

given the army he's a part of is now cut off with no way to retreat, and we seem unlikely to be willing to let them leave, probably made up.
 
given the army he's a part of is now cut off with no way to retreat, and we seem unlikely to be willing to let them leave, probably made up.
To be fair, them transmitting citations for the Victorian equivalent of the Medal of Honor is far from out of the question. We blew up most of their heavy equipment, but I doubt we got all their radios capable of reaching across Lake Erie.

And hell, they have light aircraft (Cessna-equivalents). It's entirely possible that they're in contact with the Leamington force by small airplanes flying across Lake Erie and landing on random straight stretches of highway in Essex County.
 
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I still think armored cars like the ERC-90 or VBC-90 are a good first step towards properly building AFVs.

The Rooikat 76 is more my jam. Besides using the same gun that has applications against boats and aircraft, it can also shoot APFSDS which gives it a lot of longevity against even late Cold War tanks.

The big problem is that the Victorians run on schizo tech and that this somewhat complicates the picture.

On the one hand they are literally using significant numbers of T-34 tanks as a mobile element for deep penetration raids where possible, which means that we kiiind of want something mobile on the ground capable of confronting that, including something capable of taking the offensive in the face of that threat if they ever think of parking the tank hull down behind a ridge and letting us come to them.

On the other hand their infantry is probably toting shoulder-fired antitank rockets from the Cold War or possibly even more advanced simply because it's not worth the Russians' trouble to replicate an RPG-2 or whatever bullshit archaeotech Lind would have them using. Aaaaand it's very very possible that the Victorians will get ahead of less primitive Cold War style Russian tanks at any time.

Eh you're overestimating the efficacy of weapons like the RPG-7. The combination of low velocity and inaccuracy makes it unsuitable for responding to vehicle fire outside of even 500m nevermind those 1km+ away. Even recoilless rifles would suffer problems trying to hit armored vehicles at that range. The main effect is that they prevent us from just casually maneuvering our vehicles up close to their positions for better shots and being mobile cover.

The main concern would be from them importing ATGMs though since they can be guided onto distant targets and combine it with being hard to spot. Those weapons would require better coordination of artillery to neutralize them to make space for our armored vehicles.
 
The Rooikat 76 is more my jam. Besides using the same gun that has applications against boats and aircraft, it can also shoot APFSDS which gives it a lot of longevity against even late Cold War tanks.
I mean, getting ahold of armor piercing uranium sabot (I don't think we'll bother depleting it unless we're interested in having our own nuclear program) may be an eventual stretch goal, but as far as I can tell there is like none of that near where we are.

The issue is that whatever armored car we design first is going to need to perform a lot of different roles. That includes, for example, generic-brand fire support and bunker busting, and for that, larger calibers of explosive shell have a lot of virtues. If I were the Secretary of War (WAR, not defense...), I'd be looking both to initiate armored car production to standardize our technical corps and replace it with something a bit more consistent and durable, and to start an ATGM development program, along with a light armored vehicle to carry said ATGMs. The armored cars would be to deal with the present Victorian force mix and whatever other odds and sods we face, while the ATGM carrier is there so we have something to work with if the Victorians armor up properly.

Eh you're overestimating the efficacy of weapons like the RPG-7. The combination of low velocity and inaccuracy makes it unsuitable for responding to vehicle fire outside of even 500m nevermind those 1km+ away. Even recoilless rifles would suffer problems trying to hit armored vehicles at that range. The main effect is that they prevent us from just casually maneuvering our vehicles up close to their positions for better shots and being mobile cover.

The main concern would be from them importing ATGMs though since they can be guided onto distant targets and combine it with being hard to spot. Those weapons would require better coordination of artillery to neutralize them to make space for our armored vehicles.
Fair.
 
On one hand, not even the Wehrmacht were wanting for enlisted personnel to pin the Knight's Cross on.

On the other hand, there's a reason his last name's Ogilvy.
I second the notion put forward by Simon. Care to inform we ignorant peasants on the significance of this name?
 
I mean, getting ahold of armor piercing uranium sabot (I don't think we'll bother depleting it unless we're interested in having our own nuclear program) may be an eventual stretch goal, but as far as I can tell there is like none of that near where we are.

The issue is that whatever armored car we design first is going to need to perform a lot of different roles. That includes, for example, generic-brand fire support and bunker busting, and for that, larger calibers of explosive shell have a lot of virtues. If I were the Secretary of War (WAR, not defense...), I'd be looking both to initiate armored car production to standardize our technical corps and replace it with something a bit more consistent and durable, and to start an ATGM development program, along with a light armored vehicle to carry said ATGMs. The armored cars would be to deal with the present Victorian force mix and whatever other odds and sods we face, while the ATGM carrier is there so we have something to work with if the Victorians armor up properly.

You merely only need to alloy tungsten to be able to start experimenting with and building up APFSDS stocks assuming the tungsten isn't used for other applications! :V

That said, it is not unheard of for the same vehicle chassis to mount different weaponry and associated mounts. We won't necessarily have to develop multiple different vehicles when the real challenge is making the weapon systems in the first place and then fitting it onto our vehicles (and developing a carriage for towing if we're that desperate).
 
If we want to use a vehicle for several weapons platforms, I suggest looking either into the British Universal Carrier or the Wiesel Armoured Weapons Carrier as inspiration.
 
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Ahhh! There's something satisfying about being able to see tangible reductions in my level of overwork, day by day! Last week sucked, but this week I actually have holes in my schedule!

Let's fill 'em with quests.

And speaking of, what did we need to roll, here?

[X] Plan Raise Periscope
-[X][AIR] The air force is shattered, its pilots badly burnt out. Stand them down and give them a break. In the unlikely event that you need to piss away four planes at a later date, you can always call them back up again. It's not like their odds of making a dent will meaningfully improve by staying geared up.
-[X][NAVY] Enemy air supremacy and foul weather, in shallow-drafted boats with no deck armor? Yeah, no. Pull your gunships back, and await a better opportunity. Time plays to your advantage with both of these problems. The army can endure, but every ship you lose is precious.
-[X] Write-in: You don't know what the other half of the Victorian army is doing. Make it a priority to get some reconnaissance information on the situation south of the defense lines on the south side of the city, by whatever means seem feasible and not needlessly dangerous. This may include naval action after the weather clears, but not air action with the handful of planes you have left.

Ah, yes.

Now, you have declined to do things with your navy or (what is left of) your air force, so we will not roll for those. Victoria just gets air supremacy, modified by weather (and it is foul weather). They would get naval supremacy, but...well.

As it stands, they will attempt to get their remaining cargo ships -- what few remain -- over to Leamington to bring supplies to their troops there, and for that, they will roll. You aren't contesting this one, it's just the Vicks vs. the DC I'm generating now. That DC, for a full-blown Great Lakes storm, being 3. If they beat the DC, they make it to Leamington and resupply their forces. If they meet but do not beat the DC, they fail to make it through the weather and turn back to base. If they do not meet the DC, they take damage in the storm.

Victorian Modifiers

No opposition: 2 points.
Experienced hands: 1 point.
Shaky morale: -1 point.
Handicapped shipbuilding: -1 point.

Total Modifier: 1 point.

EDIT: Oh, dear.
PoptartProdigy threw 1 3-faced dice. Reason: Resupply the Landing Total: 1
1 1
 
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