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What if... The true Belka was us all along?

Shattered by Russian Influence, the US reconstitutes itself from disparate states and cities to be an international power once again. With a weird aerial super weapon this time, to stay within the aesthetic.
Swatting a cloud of Victorian F-16s with a weird aerial superweapon would be very cathartic right now.
 
Someone should write in-universe propaganda attributing the loss of 50 proud and brave-hearted Victorian Aircraft to an Ace Combat boss of their choosing, so that they don't have to admit that the enemy was capable of fighting them one-to-one and only lost due to being outnumbered. Outnumbering your enemy is a FIRST generation strategy, and Victoria only ever employs FOURTH generation tactics!

EDIT: And have it be some kind of pre-collapse prototype that we found and refurbished, rather than something we built. Neatly dodge the issue of us potentially building another, AND take yet another potshot at the greed and waste of America-That-Was! Also, be sure to mention how crippling it's loss was for our morale, really pound on that.
 
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Amusing.

Then again, why would the Victorians even admit a bunch of their planes were missing?

Because they lost them?
Like, it's hard to explain to your Russian overlords why do you need a half hundred or more new planes if you didn't make any move to multiply your pool of pilots.

Crash expanding your airforce - training up to a hundred pilots, hundreds (if not thousands) new techs, enough commanders to staff an air force regiment or two... That's expensive, and Victoria probably doesn't have the chops for that.

However, if they have all these twiddling their thumbs in the barracks due to planes being utterly absent... Well...

Then it's time to spin a tale about hundreds of cowardly communist jets, which blocked the very sun over Detroit, before valiant Victorians swatted them out of the sky at no small cost to themselves!



... On that note, Detroit campaign might have screwed Californians over.
 
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Because they lost them?
Like, it's hard to explain to your Russian overlords why do you need a half hundred or more new planes if you didn't make any move to multiply your pool of pilots.
Well yeah, but the Russians aren't going to believe a stupid excuse about a pre-Collapse superweapon.

The Victorians cannot realistically hope to lie to their Russian overlords on any large scale. Their military and security agents are almost certainly riddled with Russian spies.

And the Russians have a far more realistic appreciation of what Victoria can and cannot do than the Victorians themselves do. We see this in:

1) The Russians not letting Victoria try to annex New York ("a Brooklyn Bridge too far," as it were)
2) The Russians deliberately destroying the power base of potential competitors to Victoria, because they know Victoria isn't strong enough to deal with such things on its own.
3) The Russians deliberately assassinating Kraft and Rumford when they outlived their usefulness.

...

So realistically, the Russians will know "the Commonwealth threw together a scratch force of jets, mostly museum pieces and scavenged pre-Collapse equipment, and managed to inflict heavy losses on the Victorian Air Force at the cost of getting torn apart themselves."

The big danger is that they'll investigate this and realize the NCR has been sabotaging Victorian equipment and decide to dig deeper or exert more pressure in a way that endangers the upcoming rebellion... but that was an inevitable consequence.

... On that note, Detroit campaign might have screwed Californians over.
Uh yes. On the other hand the Californians knew Victoria would be attacking us, and decided to do this anyway. So we can only hope they know what they're doing, taking such a gamble.
 
I doubt the Russians will investigate for malice rather than assume incompetence. The Russians will sooner assume that "The Vics are still shafting their air force" than go through the trouble of sending experts to inspect every single fighter for sabotage that might not be there. The only people I would suspect have a hunch of the sabotage would be the air force flying them, and depending on how subtle it was they might not even find it. After all, the planes still fly and are shooting down the opposing air force, and the whiff with the missiles can chalked up to little to no training with ASMs or AGMs.

Uh yes. On the other hand the Californians knew Victoria would be attacking us, and decided to do this anyway. So we can only hope they know what they're doing, taking such a gamble.

I am honestly at a loss on why they are doing this for us. The only possible reason I can think of is that they hope that somehow the CFC will become capable enough to start making headway against Victoria and through this draw enough Russian attention for California to make it's moves unhindered. This is extremely unlikely unless they overestimate the CFC's military capability.

Edit: Thanks for the answer!
 
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The big danger is that they'll investigate this and realize the NCR has been sabotaging Victorian equipment and decide to dig deeper or exert more pressure in a way that endangers the upcoming rebellion... but that was an inevitable consequence.

Uh yes. On the other hand the Californians knew Victoria would be attacking us, and decided to do this anyway. So we can only hope they know what they're doing, taking such a gamble.

It's not only sabotage, it's also Commonwealth Airforce toting various jets by flights (Like, we had 4 Falcons and 4 Phantoms, and maybe some more craft like Thunderchiefs, Sabres and other obsolete craft). The problem with that is that jet engines are hard, and keeping at least 9 jets (Possibly more) in operable condition is not easy. And Victorians would overclaim like airforces do, but there'd be no easy way for anyone to clarify the extent since the battle was within our SAM envelope and there's war to be had around there; Us toting a squadron or several of F-16s, possibly with mercenary Californian pilots, sounds more plausible than us managing to trade assortment of museum pieces with barely trained pilots for Victorian first rate planes at 1:1 rate.

It would look like California propped us up explicitly to bleed Victoria (Which they did, if to a smaller extent), placing scrutiny on them, and allowing Russians to discover whatever material they've squirreled away for their own revolution, if only because Russians expect to find them concealing that stuff.
 
I am honestly at a loss on why they are doing this for us. The only possible reason I can think of is that they hope that somehow the CFC will become capable enough to start making headway against Victoria and through this draw enough Russian attention for California to make it's moves unhindered. This is extremely unlikely unless they overestimate the CFC's military capability.
Because it makes us more likely to survive to distract Victoria and Russia, makes it so we agree ahead of time to recognize their independence (rather than trying to go full restorationist and claim they're part of the US and thus part of us) and thus also recognizing their conquests in the southwest.
 
I doubt the Russians will investigate for malice rather than assume incompetence. The Russians will sooner assume that "The Vics are still shafting their air force" than go through the trouble of sending experts to inspect every single fighter for sabotage that might not be there. The only people I would suspect have a hunch of the sabotage would be the air force flying them, and depending on how subtle it was they might not even find it. After all, the planes still fly and are shooting down the opposing air force, and the whiff with the missiles can chalked up to little to no training with ASMs or AGMs.
On the other hand, the Russians themselves are the ones most likely to be training the VAF, and probably have quite a few liaisons, both overt and covert, with that force. And the Victorian underperformance also impacted their air to air combat, which is the area the Russians would expect the Viks to be competent at.

So it's hard to say IMO.

I am honestly at a loss on why they are doing this for us. The only possible reason I can think of is that they hope that somehow the CFC will become capable enough to start making headway against Victoria and through this draw enough Russian attention for California to make it's moves unhindered. This is extremely unlikely unless they overestimate the CFC's military capability.
Even if we lose the Detroit campaign, at this rate we'll do enough damage to the Victorian war machine that they'll need another year or so to finish the fight with us. It may well be that even if we lose, we'll be drawing the war out until California declares independence.

And even if we don't draw the Russians' attention this way, we DO draw the Victorians' own attention and greatly wear down their forces, making them significantly less able to act as proxies for the Russians in any way.

Remember that last time, the Pacific Republic had to surrender because the Russians had blockaded it and Victorian and mercenary units working on the Russians' behalf were raping, looting, and pillaging through chunks of California. If the Victorian army is chewed up fighting us, they're less likely to be able to contribute troops to rape-loot-pillage in the NCR.

It's not only sabotage, it's also Commonwealth Airforce toting various jets by flights (Like, we had 4 Falcons and 4 Phantoms, and maybe some more craft like Thunderchiefs, Sabres and other obsolete craft).
We had approximately fifty planes, based on what @PoptartProdigy told us before the air battle.

The problem with that is that jet engines are hard, and keeping at least 9 jets (Possibly more) in operable condition is not easy. And Victorians would overclaim like airforces do, but there'd be no easy way for anyone to clarify the extent since the battle was within our SAM envelope and there's war to be had around there; Us toting a squadron or several of F-16s, possibly with mercenary Californian pilots, sounds more plausible than us managing to trade assortment of museum pieces with barely trained pilots for Victorian first rate planes at 1:1 rate.
True. On the other hand, gun camera footage from the surviving Victorian aircraft is likely to confirm what a hodgepodge our forces were and that many of the Victorian air-to-air kills were against older fighter craft.

The Russians may come to some intermediate conclusion (say, that we were flying obsolete planes but that California helped us re-engine and refit them, or provided modern air to air missiles, or trained our pilots), though.

It would look like California propped us up explicitly to bleed Victoria (Which they did, if to a smaller extent), placing scrutiny on them, and allowing Russians to discover whatever material they've squirreled away for their own revolution, if only because Russians expect to find them concealing that stuff.
That's a distinct possibility- though again, the Californians almost have to expected something like this as a risk of deliberately stiffing the Victorians. I can only assume that in their mind, the risk of increased Russian scrutiny is outweighed by the benefits of the Victorians being weaker in the air, of us being more likely to hold out and act as a counterweight against Victoria, and of broader recognition from within the United States.

Since the NCR is much better placed to estimate just how much attention Russia is likely to pay to their situation, and how well placed they are to hide their preparations until the decisive moment, all we can really do is hope that they calculated correctly.
 
Canon Omake: Pre-Written Speech (First Draft)
Imagine the following being written by a bunch of anxious bureaucrats back in Chicago, desperate to do something while this massive brawl is going on just a couple hundred miles away. All footnotes are In Character.

----------------------------------------------------
Pre-Written Speech (First Draft)​

Earlier today, forces from the Commonwealth of Free Cities met and engaged with hostile forces belonging to the nation of Victoria, in our fledgling countries first true conflict. But while this war of aggression Victoria has declared against us for daring to exist outside their control may not be the first armed conflict they have engaged in, it marks the first time they have faced anything remotely resembling a peer adversary in a fair fight.


Against the Federal Government, they were merely the straw that broke the camel's back, the spark that at last set off the powder keg, the crack that finally ruptured a pressure cooker that had been seething for close to a decade. Against the New American Confederation, Russian hands were hard at work hacking apart the timbers that held their foe together*, and it was the Texas Rangers who committed that unforgivable act of detonating a nuclear device on American soil. Against the Pacific Republic, international opinion is that the garrote placed around California's economy, once again in Russian hands, would have been more than sufficient to bring an end to things, and that the presence of Rumford and his cronies was a mild accelerant at best, and utterly superfluous at worst%. As for assorted instances of Victoria ineffectually flailing at pirates, one would have to be delusional or a liar to call these victories, and the nation that now stands as our foe has both of these in spades.

(* Hold up. Do we know this or are we just guessing?#)
(%I think they did more than that...#)
(#This is basically pure propaganda, facts are secondary.)

[IF WE WIN]

And now, standing against us purely on their own merits, we have taken Victoria's measure… And we have found them wanting. In their outlandish hubris, they dove directly into the teeth of our waiting forces, fully expecting to win on nothing more than raw numbers and sheer force of will. When they were left to fight with nothing but small arms and blades, they ordered the troops to advance anyway, leading them to die in droves against entrenched machine gun fire. When they realized our reserves were still very much in position to respond, they ordered the troops to advance anyway, leading into the exact sort of battle which they are absolutely the least equipped to engage in&: A knock-down drag-out fight to the finish against a foe inclined neither to panic nor to rash and hasty action. Even as I speak, our forces work tirelessly to repair the damage inflicted upon Detroit by these recently concluded hostilities, and by the same token prepare for the inevitable second wave. And mark my words, there will be a second wave, as Victoria's continued existence relies on the terror they cast upon the whole of this land, and the continued existence of any polity capable of dispelling this effect represents an existential threat to them, without the need for so much as a single counter-attack.

(&I'm... Pretty sure that if we win, it'll end up looking like this.)

[IF WE LOSE]

And now, having managed to drown Detroit's finest in a tide of bodies and cult-like fanaticism, even in their so-called victory their weaknesses are made apparent. In our best estimates, it will take them several years, possibly even the better part of a decade, to recoup the losses they have suffered as a result of their reckless disregard for the lives of their troops. Though our own losses are painful indeed, we have the infrastructure and knowledge to rebuild our armed forces in a fraction of the time it will take Victoria, and furthermore to prepare ourselves for when the attempt at doing what the Nazis could not finally comes. $So I have myself full confidence that if all do their duty, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we should prove ourselves once more able to defend our home. We shall ride out the storm of war and outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years. And if necessary, alone. For this is the will of our parliament and of our nation, The Commonwealth of Free Cities, linked together in its cause and in its need, shall fight to the death to defend its native soil, all members aiding each other as good comrades should, and united we shall stand until the end. We will defend our home, whatever the cost may be. We will fight on the beaches, we will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight upon the waves of the great lakes, we will fight in the fields, and in the streets, and in the hills and swamps. We will never surrender. And if, which I do not believe for an instant this will be the case, our homeland or some large part of it should find itself starving and subjugated, then those others who have been wronged by Victoria and desire justice for this should carry on our struggle, until, in God's good time, some new or extant state should rise to the challenge of rescuing and liberating these lands from the scourge that now plagues them.

($ Yes this entire segment is lifted from Winston Churchill. Seems apropos to me. And what are the brits gonna do, sue us?)
 
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Re: Speech draft Review

Look good, perhaps an alternative extra line for a loss, but with successful evacuation? Something along the lines of "And even their victory is not absolute. Right now, brave members of our arms forces are escorting Detroit Refugees^ back, where we will welcome them, as we will welcome them, as we have welcomed so many &others." Get ahead of any Propaganda and cast us as escorting refugees rather than leaving them to die.

(^We will want to check with Burns if any plans are in place for this.)
(&Note, prep for a political head-ache about refugee status if this happens.)
 
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I RETURN
Imagine the following being written by a bunch of anxious bureaucrats back in Chicago, desperate to do something while this massive brawl is going on just a couple hundred miles away. All footnotes are In Character.

----------------------------------------------------
Pre-Written Speech (First Draft)​

Earlier today, forces from the Commonwealth of Free Cities met and engaged with hostile forces belonging to the nation of Victoria, in our fledgling countries first true conflict. But while this war of aggression Victoria has declared against us for daring to exist outside their control may not be the first armed conflict they have engaged in, it marks the first time they have faced anything remotely resembling a peer adversary in a fair fight.


Against the Federal Government, they were merely the straw that broke the camel's back, the spark that at last set off the powder keg, the crack that finally ruptured a pressure cooker that had been seething for close to a decade. Against the New American Confederation, Russian hands were hard at work hacking apart the timbers that held their foe together*, and it was the Texas Rangers who committed that unforgivable act of detonating a nuclear device on American soil. Against the Pacific Republic, international opinion is that the garrote placed around California's economy, once again in Russian hands, would have been more than sufficient to bring an end to things, and that the presence of Rumford and his cronies was a mild accelerant at best, and utterly superfluous at worst%. As for assorted instances of Victoria ineffectually flailing at pirates, one would have to be delusional or a liar to call these victories, and the nation that now stands as our foe has both of these in spades.

(* Hold up. Do we know this or are we just guessing?#)
(%I think they did more than that...#)
(#This is basically pure propaganda, facts are secondary.)

[IF WE WIN]

And now, standing against us purely on their own merits, we have taken Victoria's measure… And we have found them wanting. In their outlandish hubris, they dove directly into the teeth of our waiting forces, fully expecting to win on nothing more than raw numbers and sheer force of will. When they were left to fight with nothing but small arms and blades, they ordered the troops to advance anyway, leading them to die in droves against entrenched machine gun fire. When they realized our reserves were still very much in position to respond, they ordered the troops to advance anyway, leading into the exact sort of battle which they are absolutely the least equipped to engage in&: A knock-down drag-out fight to the finish against a foe inclined neither to panic nor to rash and hasty action. Even as I speak, our forces work tirelessly to repair the damage inflicted upon Detroit by these recently concluded hostilities, and by the same token prepare for the inevitable second wave. And mark my words, there will be a second wave, as Victoria's continued existence relies on the terror they cast upon the whole of this land, and the continued existence of any polity capable of dispelling this effect represents an existential threat to them, without the need for so much as a single counter-attack.

(&I'm... Pretty sure that if we win, it'll end up looking like this.)

[IF WE LOSE]

And now, having managed to drown Detroit's finest in a tide of bodies and cult-like fanaticism, even in their so-called victory their weaknesses are made apparent. In our best estimates, it will take them several years, possibly even the better part of a decade, to recoup the losses they have suffered as a result of their reckless disregard for the lives of their troops. Though our own losses are painful indeed, we have the infrastructure and knowledge to rebuild our armed forces in a fraction of the time it will take Victoria, and furthermore to prepare ourselves for when the attempt at doing what the Nazis could not finally comes. $So I have myself full confidence that if all do their duty, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we should prove ourselves once more able to defend our home. We shall ride out the storm of war and outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years. And if necessary, alone. For this is the will of our parliament and of our nation, The Commonwealth of Free Cities, linked together in its cause and in its need, shall fight to the death to defend its native soil, all members aiding each other as good comrades should, and united we shall stand until the end. We will defend our home, whatever the cost may be. We will fight on the beaches, we will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight upon the waves of the great lakes, we will fight in the fields, and in the streets, and in the hills and swamps. We will never surrender. And if, which I do not believe for an instant this will be the case, our homeland or some large part of it should find itself starving and subjugated, then those others who have been wronged by Victoria and desire justice for this should carry on our struggle, until, in God's good time, some new or extant state should rise to the challenge of rescuing and liberating these lands from the scourge that now plagues them.

($ Yes this entire segment is lifted from Winston Churchill. Seems apropos to me. And what are the brits gonna do, sue us?)
And as I return, have a canon! I like this. :D
 
Lurker here. If I may ask...slightly off topic...

How far is our government going down the parliamentary route? Is each party going to have their own shadow cabinet as in the Westminster system, or are we sticking to having the President select who they believe are the most qualified?
 
The fine details of the government are vague to avoid getting bogged down in endless constitutional debates by the fanbase and things not related to destroying Victoria. The details are fleshed out as needed as the quest goes. The Commonwealth President is effectively both a President and Prime Minister figure rolled up in one position.

Sidenote. We had never been a normal democracy in our short history. We started with the Burns military provisional government with emergency powers and now we have an elected civilian government with emergency powers with Johnson. This is forgivable and having an elected civilian government is significant progress but we are not quite a healthy normal democracy yet and probably will not being for a long time due to our poor position.
 
I was just thinking about something regarding Victoria's (lack of) strength; since Victoria has been uncontested in the American continent for decades, wouldn't it be more likely that they would have expanded or vassalize a lot more of North America during their gold years? How likely is it that Russia intentionally hampered any attempt Victoria made at expanding post-Pacific Republic War?

I personally think it's pretty damn likely, since I doubt Tsar Alexander would want Victoria to gain any more power. After all, Victoria needs to be fairly weak and dependent to be a good puppet.
 
I was just thinking about something regarding Victoria's (lack of) strength; since Victoria has been uncontested in the American continent for decades, wouldn't it be more likely that they would have expanded or vassalize a lot more of North America during their gold years? How likely is it that Russia intentionally hampered any attempt Victoria made at expanding post-Pacific Republic War?

I personally think it's pretty damn likely, since I doubt Tsar Alexander would want Victoria to gain any more power. After all, Victoria needs to be fairly weak and dependent to be a good puppet.

Russians wouldn't need to interfere in their expansion. They could simply loosen the leash a bit on NCR and FCNY, and those would arm pretty much anyone as long as they're fighting Victorians.
 
I was just thinking about something regarding Victoria's (lack of) strength; since Victoria has been uncontested in the American continent for decades, wouldn't it be more likely that they would have expanded or vassalize a lot more of North America during their gold years? How likely is it that Russia intentionally hampered any attempt Victoria made at expanding post-Pacific Republic War?

I personally think it's pretty damn likely, since I doubt Tsar Alexander would want Victoria to gain any more power. After all, Victoria needs to be fairly weak and dependent to be a good puppet.
Why would they want to expand outwards into Orc territory? What possible value could such a thing add to the nation?
 
I was just thinking about something regarding Victoria's (lack of) strength; since Victoria has been uncontested in the American continent for decades, wouldn't it be more likely that they would have expanded or vassalize a lot more of North America during their gold years? How likely is it that Russia intentionally hampered any attempt Victoria made at expanding post-Pacific Republic War?

I personally think it's pretty damn likely, since I doubt Tsar Alexander would want Victoria to gain any more power. After all, Victoria needs to be fairly weak and dependent to be a good puppet.
Considering Russia forced Victoria to not choke itself with NYC, it is rather likely.
 
Firstly, Victoria's probably had considerable difficulty stabilizing its own economy and enforcing ideological conformity through repeated purges, given that it started with a population that would be, ah, disinclined to acquiesce in some of the core elements of their ideology. That would likely have kept them very busy in between their wars for a long time.

Secondly, by the time Victoria was in any position to integrate more territory than it already held in its initial expansions, I suspect the territories immediately around it had already been laid waste, probably in no small part through Victorian efforts. There would be little there of any real, lasting value.

Thirdly, the biggest obstacle to the Victorians setting up regular tributary relationships with other parts of the continent is that much of that territory doesn't have enough worth extracting to justify the costs of guerilla wars. It's the same reason no one, not even the US, ever tried reconquering by force and formally asserting sovereignty over the former colonial empires of the European powers. Because if you try to conquer a country in the modern day, nothing you extract from it will outweigh the damage done by constantly having guerillas with AK-47s and roadside bombs plinking at your forces for the next twenty years. Even if it's totally possible to go somewhere, wreck faces, and impose public obedience to your own government by crushing the regular troops of whatever tinpot despot is running the place... the national independence movements will make you regret it.

EDIT:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Victorians do have some combination of raiding and punitive expeditions that they launch up into the Great Lakes, or along the Atlantic coast, in areas that are relatively easy for them to reach and where they can plausibly hope to deploy large land forces.

But at this point, I think about the only things of value that would be worth taking control of are either things it's more profitable for the Victorians to trade for in a quasi-consensual way. Say, agricultural products. Or copper from a specific mine that still runs, it just runs more like a copper mine in the most impoverished parts of Africa would instead of running like it used to.
 
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Thirdly, the biggest obstacle to the Victorians setting up regular tributary relationships with other parts of the continent is that much of that territory doesn't have enough worth extracting to justify the costs of guerilla wars. It's the same reason no one, not even the US, ever tried reconquering by force and formally asserting sovereignty over the former colonial empires of the European powers. Because if you try to conquer a country in the modern day, nothing you extract from it will outweigh the damage done by constantly having guerillas with AK-47s and roadside bombs plinking at your forces for the next twenty years. Even if it's totally possible to go somewhere, wreck faces, and impose public obedience to your own government by crushing the regular troops of whatever tinpot despot is running the place... the national independence movements will make you regret it.
Hence, my commitment to expand our borders exclusively through diplomacy, and to seek peaceful relations with non-Victorian successor states.
 
How much have the various potential successor states solidified their own national identities so far tho? If a lot of people still think of themselves as Americans, with the right approach we may be able to diplo-annex whole stretches of territory. The various states that made up what is modern Italy and Germany were disunited for a lot longer then those of the US for example.
I think what you say in your second and third sentences if totally 100% compatible with what @bdun140 says.
 
I personally can't wait until we get to see the NCR! Together, we shall throw off the Russian shackles placed on the continent! The Battle of Chicago is just pretty tense so far...
 
I personally can't wait until we get to see the NCR! Together, we shall throw off the Russian shackles placed on the continent! The Battle of Chicago is just pretty tense so far...

That presumes the NCR actually succeeds in their rebellion, while we may be dealing with Victoria Russia is an entirely different and much larger beast. Russia killed the Pacific Republic, it's impoverished descendant might not even get off the ground.

Remember the NCR is officially a Russian client, and until they officially throw off those shackles meeting them in an official capacity will likely just enforce our own chains.
 
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