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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Blackstar said:
I would expect it to lead to us needing to use a rescorce backed currency for a while. Which has it's own multitude of downsides, but is... managable as long as we tie it to something necessary/not in massive boom.
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Under present conditions, our access to almost any resource might boom at almost any time. We should certainly hope that resource access booms.

QTesseract said:
I'm of the opinion that we need at least brownwater navy + another military advantage for Victorian attention, or, if not brownwater navy, two military advantages / one military and one strong support of military, liek ear to the ground.
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The converse of that is that if something like Ear To The Ground can be considered an advantage that supports our military, Disastrous Start is a malus that correspondingly undermines our military by giving us less intelligence about what's going to happen later.

I don't disagree with the slightest. It's much less high variance than randomly losing all our best leaders, though, and... when I have to make a choice bwteen a disunified currency and a navy, or a disunified currency and a pharma industry, I know which one I pick. It's a deadly serious downside that I think is nonetheless worth is for the points.
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I'm a bit skeptical of whether a viable pharmaceutical industry can sustain itself in a barter economy. Mass production of vaccines themselves maybe, but I'm still suspicious.

Put that way, some disadvantages are clearly less bad than the advantages you can buy with their perks, and some aren't. For instance, I think no navy is clearly worth it, but brown water navy is even more worth is so that doesn't matter. And at a hefty 3 points cost, I'm willing to have a disunified currency, and pay for universities, or libraries, in a way I'm not willing to pay for things via assasins.
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Personally, I consider the leaders less important than the masses, to the point where I have more faith in our ability to go on with a well-organized state that loses several leaders in the opening years, than I do in our ability to go on with a barter economy and a surviving leadership cadre.
 
Looking around, I don't see that any of the existing plans have incorporated the M-83, so in the interest of making sure Victoria doesn't pick up one to do a bit of bomb smuggling...

@PoptartProdigy, my plan to consider:

[] Plan Go Big or Go Home
Old World Equipment
Old World Soldiers
Professionals Study Logistics
Victorian Attention
-[] The Greatest Sin (3 CP)
-[] Disunited Currency (3 CP)
-[] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[] Nuke (-5 CP)
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP)​
 
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@PoptartProdigy

[] Plan Butter 3.0
-[] Brown Water Navy
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Widespread Vaccinations
-[] Libraries
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[] Rail Companies
-[] Established
-[] The Greatest Sin
-[] Victorian Sympathizers
-[] Disunited Currency
-[] Population Boom
-[] Crossed Wires
 
[] Plan TheTroubles
-[] No Navy
-[] Fringe Elements
-[] Population Boom
-[] Disastrous Start
-[] Victorian Sympathisers
-[] Established
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Widespread Vaccinations
-[] Rail Companies
-[] Libraries
-[] Good Security
-[] Resistance Contacts
 
@PoptartProdigy
[] Plan: Manufacture and Tax
Gain 6 CP + 4 CP (Old Guard)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Disunited Currency (3 CP)
-[] Population Boom (2 CP)
Cost 10 CP
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Well-Preserved (-1 CP)

This is a plan that requires setting up local trades, rail, dealing with currency issue; but the upside is that we have full power federal government and good foundation to setup manufacturing industry.

[] Plan: Just the Government
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)

The most basic plan that ensure we have a full power federal government, nothing else tho.
 
Out of all non-vaccine plans with low drawbacks, Void, yours is basically the one I would choose, as it has all of the industrial resources, all the government set up, and drawbacks that an already set up bureaucracy can deal with given time.

Edit: Plus, its once we have a government and a basic knowlege base going, its not going to be that hard to produce sulfa antibiotics/inject horses for vaccines. It's just... going to cost quite a few horses/will be imperfect.
 
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Blackstar said:
It's just... going to cost quite a few horses/will be imperfect.
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We may have some difficulty with that part, horses make good eating in an apocalypse. Plus we'll probably be using them for modern horse cavalry and recon units so that's more horses needed.
 
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This is posted purely as a though experiment- what if we min-maxed in the name of ultra-plusing our military?

Meet Plan "Guns before Butter"

From Leader (+4):
Old World Hardware
Old World Soldiers
Professionals Study Logistics
Victorian Attention

Maluses:
Disastrous Start (+1)
Import Export Professionals (+1)
Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
Population Boom (+2)
Disunited Currency (+3)
Russian Attention (+3)
Technological Conservatism (+3)
Crossed Wires (+2)

20 CP to spend

Bonuses:
Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1) x 2
Old World Hardware (-1)
Old World Training (-2)
Brown-Water Navy (-2)
Green-Water Navy (-4)
Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
Nuke (-5)
Established (-2)

We have one of the best militaries in North America- on par with California and superior to Victoria in many ways. We have enough Old World Hardware (x2) for the Devils to autowin ten engagements and enough foreign equipment (x2) courtesy of India or Israel or the EU to arm no less than two other units. Our Old World Training means those units start at 2/5 as do all of our other troops, and Hellfire Burns' logistical expertise will allow us to keep our men and women fed and armed some distance from home. Nor have we neglected our navy! A combination of old world Coast Guard vessels and newly built or repurposed ships has given us total naval dominance over the Great Lakes and at least the adjacent stretches of the Mississippi and other rivers. Our camera drones give us greater air intelligence capabilities than almost anyone else has, and if all else fails there is always our nuclear ace-in-the-hole. We have no domestic insurgencies, enemy spies, sympathizers, or assassins in our midst, and we start having completed the Chicago Accords and built the basics of a country. We are unstoppable.

How did we pay for it? Umm.... well why fight just Victoria within the first four turns when we can fight Victoria and Russia? I'm sure we can take them as long as they don't attack on turn one. Or at the same time. Technological Conservatism and Crossed Wires will hold back our tech, but that seems like a "tomorrow" problem, plus it's not like Victoria is advancing technologically is it? We're dealing with a population boom, but I doubt that using the military to drive out loyal people who came to us seeking shelter and to help with the cause could possibly backfire. Speaking of which, there are no downsides to using soldiers to go after smugglers and common criminals right? Hopefully that currency problem will just sort itself out. The hostility of our neighbors shouldn't be a problem- we can always just crush them if they ally together.

:p

EDIT: Plan withdrawn, see "Hellfire Burns Vs. The World" which combines most of the elements of this with a stronger economic platform.
 
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As much as I've ranted and raved against Brown Water Navy, the reason that I did so is because we'd have a navy either way, so long as we didn't take No Navy. If the early Victorian intervention comes through direct military action, it seems more likely to me that we'll see boats on the Great Lakes than a land based attack. A basic navy supported by Old World Weaponry seems suitable to turn the tide, if you'll pardon my word choice, while having no navy at all screws us like Rod Blagojevich's phone history.
 
Corripere said:
India is cooperating with Russia to contain China. Not sure they're our friends.
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Thank you, I'd somehow missed that. Doesn't mean that ultranationalist India or Japan wouldn't like an opportunity to foster their own little satellite in America so as expand their influence at Russia's expense, but I expect you're right. Pakistan maybe as a foreign backer? Or China themselves?
 
EBR said:
Thank you, I'd somehow missed that. Doesn't mean that ultranationalist India or Japan wouldn't like an opportunity to foster their own little satellite in America so as expand their influence at Russia's expense, but I expect you're right. Pakistan maybe as a foreign backer? Or China themselves?
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China, actually, wouldn't be too bad of a pick; after what Poptart describes as "China being China" (read: food shortages/plagues/massive depopulation into massive free-for-all civil war into rapid new governmental coalescence + RAEG (during which period the use of nukes were threatened no less than 17 times)), China has restyled itself into a democracy in the political tradition of Sun-Yat-Sen, plus or minus absolute hatred for the parties (read: Japan and Russia) that forced them into a second Century of Humiliation.
 
EBR said:
This is posted purely as a though experiment- what if we min-maxed in the name of ultra-plusing our military?

Meet Plan "Guns before Butter"

From Leader (+4):
Old World Hardware
Old World Soldiers
Professionals Study Logistics
Victorian Attention

Maluses:
Disastrous Start (+1)
Import Export Professionals (+1)
Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
Population Boom (+2)
Disunited Currency (+3)
Russian Attention (+3)
Technological Conservatism (+3)
Crossed Wires (+2)

18 CP to spend

Bonuses:
Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1) x 2
Old World Hardware (-1)
Old World Training (-2)
Brown-Water Navy (-2)
Green-Water Navy (-4)
Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
Nuke (-5)
Established (-2)

We have one of the best militaries in North America- on par with California and superior to Victoria in many ways. We have enough Old World Hardware (x2) for the Devils to autowin ten engagements and enough foreign equipment (x2) courtesy of India or Israel or the EU to arm no less than two other units. Our Old World Training means those units start at 2/5 as do all of our other troops, and Hellfire Burns' logistical expertise will allow us to keep our men and women fed and armed some distance from home. Nor have we neglected our navy! A combination of old world Coast Guard vessels and newly built or repurposed ships has given us total naval dominance over the Great Lakes and at least the adjacent stretches of the Mississippi and other rivers. Our camera drones give us greater air intelligence capabilities than almost anyone else has, and if all else fails there is always our nuclear ace-in-the-hole. We have no domestic insurgencies, enemy spies, sympathizers, or assassins in our midst, and we start having completed the Chicago Accords and built the basics of a country. We are unstoppable.

How did we pay for it? Umm.... well why fight just Victoria within the first four turns when we can fight Victoria and Russia? I'm sure we can take them as long as they don't attack on turn one. Or at the same time. Technological Conservatism and Crossed Wires will hold back our tech, but that seems like a "tomorrow" problem, plus it's not like Victoria is advancing technologically is it? We're dealing with a population boom, but I doubt that using the military to drive out loyal people who came to us seeking shelter and to help with the cause could possibly backfire. Speaking of which, there are no downsides to using soldiers to go after smugglers and common criminals right? Hopefully that currency problem will just sort itself out. The hostility of our neighbors shouldn't be a problem- we can always just crush them if they ally together.

:p

@PoptartProdigy
[] Guns Before Butter
-[] Disastrous Start (+1)
-[] Import Export Professionals (+1)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
-[] Population Boom (+2)
-[] Disunited Currency (+3)
-[] Russian Attention (+3)
-[] Technological Conservatism (+3)
-[] Crossed Wires (+2)
-[] Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1) x 2
-[] Old World Hardware (-1)
-[] Old World Training (-2)
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2)
-[] Green-Water Navy (-4)
-[] Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
-[] Nuke (-5)
-[] Established (-2)
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I actually like this a lot - all in on fashbashing, and we put every warlord in the tri-state area on notice.

Thoughts on swapping Rail Network for Foreign Equipment?
 
@PoptartProdigy Since I keep getting likes on the post it's from, here's both my plans:

[] Plan Maluses Are Bad, Ok?
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Good Security (-1 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (1 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP + 3 CP = 7 CP spent.

[] Plan Super Simple
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP + 2 CP = 6 CP spent.
 
Simon_Jester said:
And to have a plan that isn't so heavily stacking us up with disadvantages, but includes the nuke:
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Main reason I went with the maluses I did was that I wanted to grab Established, Independent Merchants, and Widespread Vaccinations - since those have been mentioned as being quite important for staving off other crises.

Also, the main reason I want the nuke is I don't want the Viks to get it, since they have a nasty habit of sneaking bombs into people's cities.
 
Libandlearn said:
If only we had direct access to the pacific...
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It would be easier to expand to the east coast, build up something resembling a halfway decent navy, then invade Panama and restore the Canal. I doubt its still operational, but getting the Canal under our control would help a lot, and it gets you that easy Pacific access you're interested in.
 
Is 5 CP worth guaranteeing that the Victorians cannot ever groundburst a can of instant sunshine in downtown Chicago, our political and economic center of gravity?
 
avatar11792 said:
It would be easier to expand to the east coast, build up something resembling a halfway decent navy, then invade Panama and restore the Canal. I doubt its still operational, but getting the Canal under our control would help a lot, and it gets you that easy Pacific access you're interested in.
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...how would that whole ordeal be easier than linking up with the NCR & getting them out from under Russian control? They're more loosely held than Panama and they're on the coast that isn't where Victoria is.
 
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