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NCR is unlikely to use them on us, or willingly turn them over to the Victorians.

But to what extend are we willing to spend the effort of preventing surprise nuke both now and down the line? While we know Russia will be very busy soon, we have no way of know if NCR will lean closer to us or other polities.
 
But to what extend are we willing to spend the effort of preventing surprise nuke both now and down the line? While we know Russia will be very busy soon, we have no way of know if NCR will lean closer to us or other polities.

I don't think we can recover from a surprise nuke of our largest population center, and I think it would take sustained critfails for NCR to deploy nuclear weapons in a first-strike capacity.
 
Main reason I went with the maluses I did was that I wanted to grab Established, Independent Merchants, and Widespread Vaccinations - since those have been mentioned as being quite important for staving off other crises.

Also, the main reason I want the nuke is I don't want the Viks to get it, since they have a nasty habit of sneaking bombs into people's cities.
Yeah, but having to pay for so many maluses means we're very vulnerable and will be massively besieged with problems that could easily go entirely out of control and wreck us.

I get why you want the things, but I'm objecting to the sheer number of things you're trying to get.

It would be easier to expand to the east coast, build up something resembling a halfway decent navy, then invade Panama and restore the Canal. I doubt its still operational, but getting the Canal under our control would help a lot, and it gets you that easy Pacific access you're interested in.
The Panama Canal is Russian-held; we are not remotely ready to tackle them that hard.

Is 5 CP worth guaranteeing that the Victorians cannot ever groundburst a can of instant sunshine in downtown Chicago, our political and economic center of gravity?
It's questionable. Tempting, but very costly.

Also remember that the nuke may not end up in Victoria's hands. It may belong to the Floridians, or to New York, or be lying around somewhere. Even if it does go to the Victorians, they may decide to use it on someone else (New York being an obvious candidate).
 
Yeah, but having to pay for so many maluses means we're very vulnerable and will be massively besieged with problems that could easily go entirely out of control and wreck us.

I get why you want the things, but I'm objecting to the sheer number of things you're trying to get.

The Panama Canal is Russian-held; we are not remotely ready to tackle them that hard.

It's questionable. Tempting, but very costly.

Also remember that the nuke may not end up in Victoria's hands. It may belong to the Floridians, or to New York, or be lying around somewhere. Even if it does go to the Victorians, they may decide to use it on someone else (New York being an obvious candidate).
Honestly it might be better for them to use it on us than New York. The death toll would be horrifying, even if it would mean that Russia probably gives up on trying to stop people from invading Victoria.
 
I actually like this a lot - all in on fashbashing, and we put every warlord in the tri-state area on notice.

Thoughts on swapping Rail Network for Foreign Equipment?

It really isn't that unreasonable, is it?

If we dropped Green-Water Navy (which really seems overly expensive for only a mild payoff when the Victorians have no real navy), and the Nuke, and just one of the Foreign Equipments (the plus of FE is that it's unlimited and it gives us an established relationship with a foreign power), then we'd have ten (10) whole extra points to spend. That's enough to cover Independent Merchants, Widespread Vaccination, Efficient Bureaucracy, and Rail Companies. We'd still have to fight both Victoria and Russia within four turns, we'd be in a bad place technologically, and there would be other issues, but we'd have the military and economic tools to to deal with them.

And imagine if we actually managed to beat the Victorian and Russian probing attacks right off the bat- we'd see our legitimacy soar.

What do you think; call it the "Guns and Butter" plan? (Alt. Hellfire Burns versus the World)
 
It really isn't that unreasonable, is it?

If we dropped Green-Water Navy (which really seems overly expensive for only a mild payoff when the Victorians have no real navy), and the Nuke, and just one of the Foreign Equipments (the plus of FE is that it's unlimited and it gives us an established relationship with a foreign power), then we'd have ten (10) whole extra points to spend. That's enough to cover Independent Merchants, Widespread Vaccination, Efficient Bureaucracy, and Rail Companies. We'd still have to fight both Victoria and Russia within four turns, we'd be in a bad place technologically, and there would be other issues, but we'd have the military and economic tools to to deal with them.

And imagine if we actually managed to beat the Victorian and Russian probing attacks right off the bat- we'd see our legitimacy soar.

What do you think; call it the "Guns and Butter" plan? (Alt. Hellfire Burns versus the World)

Hellfire Burns Vs. The World is really, really solid.
 
Hellfire Burns Vs. The World is really, really solid.

Then let's do this and be legends.

I am withdrawing all of my previous proposals and full-throatedly endorsing this one. It's not the safest plan, but while I may not have played a lot of online RP I've done some tabletop gaming in my time, and the safest plan is never the most fun.

Solid military, solid economics, a foreign ally, and all we need to do is beat Russia and Victoria in the early game.

@PoptartProdigy

[] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
-[] Disastrous Start (+1)
-[] Import Export Professionals (+1)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
-[] Population Boom (+2)
-[] Disunited Currency (+3)
-[] Russian Attention (+3)
-[] Technological Conservatism (+3)
-[] Crossed Wires (+2)
-[] Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1)
-[] Old World Hardware (-1)
-[] Old World Training (-2)
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2)
-[] Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
-[] Established (-2)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3)
-[] Rail Companies (-2)
 
It really isn't that unreasonable, is it?

If we dropped Green-Water Navy (which really seems overly expensive for only a mild payoff when the Victorians have no real navy), and the Nuke, and just one of the Foreign Equipments (the plus of FE is that it's unlimited and it gives us an established relationship with a foreign power), then we'd have ten (10) whole extra points to spend. That's enough to cover Independent Merchants, Widespread Vaccination, Efficient Bureaucracy, and Rail Companies. We'd still have to fight both Victoria and Russia within four turns, we'd be in a bad place technologically, and there would be other issues, but we'd have the military and economic tools to to deal with them.

And imagine if we actually managed to beat the Victorian and Russian probing attacks right off the bat- we'd see our legitimacy soar.

What do you think; call it the "Guns and Butter" plan? (Alt. Hellfire Burns versus the World)

Problem is it's lacking on butter. We already have enough gun from Burns. We should be buying butter with our CP not even more Gun.
 
Then let's do this and be legends.

I am withdrawing all of my previous proposals and full-throatedly endorsing this one. It's not the safest plan, but while I may not have played a lot of online RP I've done some tabletop gaming in my time, and the safest plan is never the most fun.

Solid military, solid economics, a foreign ally, and all we need to do is beat Russia and Victoria in the early game.

@PoptartProdigy

[] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
-[] Disastrous Start (+1)
-[] Import Export Professionals (+1)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
-[] Population Boom (+2)
-[] Disunited Currency (+3)
-[] Russian Attention (+3)
-[] Technological Conservatism (+3)
-[] Crossed Wires (+2)
-[] Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1)
-[] Old World Hardware (-1)
-[] Old World Training (-2)
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2)
-[] Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
-[] Established (-2)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3)
-[] Rail Companies (-2)

This plan is absolutely insane! You have my vote sir.
 
Then let's do this and be legends.

I am withdrawing all of my previous proposals and full-throatedly endorsing this one. It's not the safest plan, but while I may not have played a lot of online RP I've done some tabletop gaming in my time, and the safest plan is never the most fun.

Solid military, solid economics, a foreign ally, and all we need to do is beat Russia and Victoria in the early game.

@PoptartProdigy

[] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
-[] Disastrous Start (+1)
-[] Import Export Professionals (+1)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (+1)
-[] Population Boom (+2)
-[] Disunited Currency (+3)
-[] Russian Attention (+3)
-[] Technological Conservatism (+3)
-[] Crossed Wires (+2)
-[] Foreign Sourced Equipment (-1)
-[] Old World Hardware (-1)
-[] Old World Training (-2)
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2)
-[] Aerial Reconnaissance (-2)
-[] Established (-2)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3)
-[] Rail Companies (-2)
What, you couldn't budget for a nuke?
 
@PoptartProdigy

[] Plan Protector of the Northwest
-[] Old World Training
-[] Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[] Revivalist Connections
-[] Established
-[] Good Reputation
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Libraries
-[] Empty Spaces
-[] Population Boom
-[] Crossed Wires
-[] Compromised
Logic explained in last post:
So my conceptual core here is to build on our core of elite and well-equipped veterans, use our military strength to further leverage investments into diplomatic endeavors, all while making basic investments in tech and econ. I have chosen a few moderate and minor maluses which I believe will either have long term benefits or can be mitigated without unduly cutting into our own boons. Remember, Poptart said we were only the first Revivalist state and we are almost certainly not going to be the last.

[] Plan Protector of the Northwest: Minimum
-[] Old World Training
-[] Revivalist Connections
-[] Established
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Libraries
-[] Population Boom
-[] Crossed Wires
The idea here is to streamline a bit, getting rid of Empty Spaces and Compromised at the price of losing Good Reputation and Foreign-Sourced Equipment. Population boom (short term crisis, possible long term boon) and Crossed Wires (no short term effect, possible long term crisis) offset each other to an extent, while the core of the plan remains the same.

[] Plan Protector of the Northwest: Vaccines
-[] Old World Training
-[] Revivalist Connections
-[] Established
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Widespread Vaccinations
-[] Libraries
-[] Population Boom
-[] Crossed Wires
-[] The Greatest Sin
I noticed a lot of people really want Vaccines, which makes a lot of sense especially if one is taking Population Boom. As such, I paid for protecting the populace by exposing government officials to risk.

[] Plan Protector of the Northwest: Nuclear Diplomacy
-[] Old World Training
-[] Good Reputation
-[] Established
-[] Independent Merchants
-[] Libraries
-[] Nuke
-[] Population Boom
-[] Crossed Wires
-[] Empty Spaces
-[] Russian Attention
Fuck it, the core idea of these plans have been to turn military strength into diplomatic power. Let's double down on that. The basic idea is to use the nuke to solve the problem posed by Russian/Victorian Attention and use the spectacle of that as diplomatic fodder. That, or use the threat of the nuke itself to reduce the magnitude of the eventual intervention(s), thus demonstrating to neighbors and other polities future allies that we can protect them.
 
Fuck it, the core idea of these plans have been to turn military strength into diplomatic power. Let's double down on that. The basic idea is to use the nuke to solve the problem posed by Russian/Victorian Attention and use the spectacle of that as diplomatic fodder. That, or use the threat of the nuke itself to reduce the magnitude of the eventual intervention(s), thus demonstrating to neighbors and other polities future allies that we can protect them.
Kind-of difficult to do that without a delivery system.
 
The nuke doesn't really do anything from us, aside from making sure we have it. It basically becomes a nuclear landmine that we can use once. It's not worth it.
 
Point: Having the Burns vs the World plan without the nuke leaves us vulnerable and even besides that leaves us subject to economic distress and other sources of collapse.

Counterpoint:

Burns

THE

WORLD
 
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I'm very much against "Burns v. The World" at this point, because I don't really think it's a good start; I'm still more in favor of a slower, trade/econ/diplomacy start (and this is, partially, what I was worried about when I said I thought voters might mash the gas pedal on going full MILITARY).
 
I have a great plan people.

[] I accidentallied all the US tanks and guns
-[] Old World Equipment x29
-[] All the disadvantages except Population Boom (we need food), Shattered Logistics, Incompetent Military, Russian Attention, and Outbreak.

This will work. I'm sure. Don't ask me how exactly, though. Something something march to Victoria.

EDIT:
Actually: @PoptartProdigy I need this up there as a gag option.
 
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Then let's do this and be legends.

I am withdrawing all of my previous proposals and full-throatedly endorsing this one. It's not the safest plan, but while I may not have played a lot of online RP I've done some tabletop gaming in my time, and the safest plan is never the most fun.

Solid military, solid economics, a foreign ally, and all we need to do is beat Russia and Victoria in the early game.
Assuming we survive, Technological Conservatism will make the game less fun.

Fuck it, the core idea of these plans have been to turn military strength into diplomatic power. Let's double down on that. The basic idea is to use the nuke to solve the problem posed by Russian/Victorian Attention...
How, exactly?

You can at the very least drive it near the path of an invading army, hide it in a ditch or something, and blow it up when the army is close enough. It would be very very hard to bomb a foreign city though.
I would argue that the reverse is true. Smuggling the bomb into a foreign city would probably be easier than ensuring it just happens to be in exactly the right place to do really serious harm to an invading army and that nothing goes wrong with the "bury bomb, don't have it spotted, push button, blow up enemy army" plan. Among other things, because smuggling the bomb into a foreign city doesn't result in a "fuuuu-" moment if the enemy takes a route of march along a different road than you expected, and isn't as time-critical.

On the other hand, it also gets you a reputation as a vicious nuclear terrorist, which is not a good thing at all.

The nuke doesn't really do anything from us, aside from making sure we have it. It basically becomes a nuclear landmine that we can use once. It's not worth it.
Well, if we COULD get a bomber, we could drop it- the B83 is an air-dropped munition. But we'd need a plane and some careful maintenance work.

I'm very much against "Burns v. The World" at this point, because I don't really think it's a good start; I'm still more in favor of a slower, trade/econ/diplomacy start (and this is, partially, what I was worried about when I said I thought voters might mash the gas pedal on going full MILITARY).
Honestly I think most of us feel roughly as you do, it's just that by this point we've had like 20 plans suggested and the discussion is largely petering out, so about the only plans still being suggested are very unconventional "hot take" plans.

@PoptartProdigy , it occurs to me that there are indeed something like 20 plans. This is so many, it may drown out the feasibility of approval voting, because very few people are going to actually vote for, say, ten different plans. You're likely to see a highly fragmented vote with many people voting for only one or two of the plans, and possibly few if any plans mustering support beyond the single digits.

If we want the advantages of real approval voting, we may need something like an elimination round, where first everybody approval-votes, then we have approval voting among the four or eight or so most popular surviving plans.
 
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