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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Dwergar said:
[] Plan Master of None.
-[] Brown Water Navy (-2)
-[] Good Security (-1)
-[] Resistance Contacts (-2)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3)
-[] Libraries (-2)
-[] Population Boom (2)
-[] Disastrous Start (1)
-[] Fringe Elements (3)
-[] Victorian Sympathizers (2)

With Old Guard and these picks, I would presume that military and ecomical matters are more-or-less covered, tech and RnD has somewhere to start, and we have allies in the heart of Victoria.
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...Yes, but the Victorians have allies in the heart of US, too! o_O

Internal politics, with these, would be a bitch to manage - but I presume that completing the process of government establishment and fending off Victorians would allow us to deal with them.
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The existence of violent fringe elements to disrupt the finalization of our national constitution and fight against the new government will massively complicate "the process of government establishment," and having Vik sympathizers in our polity could easily massively complicate "fending off the Victorians."

We may reach a point under this plan where we'll be fighting a four front war against three simultaneous internal insurgencies AND an external army.

Having just a Brown-Water Navy means we can apply pressure on Victoria. Since they don't have capable hulls in the Lakes, we can attack coasts and shipping of theirs in the Lakes, to force them either to rush us and hopefully make mistakes, or even call of the expedition entirely.
And it comes with the promise of riverine transport.
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I approve of Brown-Water Navy if we can afford it. But I don't think we can afford Resistance Contacts and I question your choice of maluses beyond that.

Corripere said:
I seriously, seriously doubt that anybody would work with the Victorians, given they're literally the incarnation of everything that went wrong. And I serious, seriously doubt that Victoria would work with anybody, considering any organization in the wasteland is anathema to them
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I think you are being grossly over-optimistic about the size of the Victorians' blind spots. This is a Poptart quest; the enemy may overlook SOME of the obvious ways of using our weaknesses against us, but tehy will assuredly not overlook ALL of the obvious ways.

And, frankly, given the autocratic leanings of our neighbors, I don't feel particularly interested in making them our allies.
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You have been explicitly told point blank that if you start trying to conquer them they will form a coalition against you. Our badass battalion can only be in one place at one time. Please do not set us up to be surrounded by enemies.

Then we can modify the plan with Good Security and remove Foreign Sourced Equipment to address that issue?

[] Plan Stable Trade 2.0
-[] Brown Water Navy (-2)
-[] Good Security (-1)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3)
-[] Libraries (-2)
-[] Population Boom (2)
-[] Disastrous Start (1)
-[] Fringe Elements (3)

One of counterintelligence's goals is anti-sabotage, so this can help mitigate that.
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This is less bad, but I still wish we could take something other than Fringe Elements. I will not vote for any plan that forces us to go to war with our own people.
 
EBR said:
I agree, but I don't know that it's worth taking Victorian Sympathizers or Population Boom to pay for. And I think that Established is an absolute necessity- if simply because the DM said they won't be happy if we fail to form a government.
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Brown-water navy is needed if we want to boost our trade. I think it's worth it if we take Vaccinations, as we will have the beginnings of a pharmaceutical industry, which is rare indeed int these parts.

EDIT:
Simon_Jester said:
You have been explicitly told point blank that if you start trying to conquer them they will form a coalition against you. Our badass battalion can only be in one place at one time. Please do not set us up to be surrounded by enemies.
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No? That's hostile neighborhood*. This is different.

I (obviously) favor my own plan, but I'm willing to accept any plan that accepts the fundamental premise of a trade state with a Brown-water Navy and Independent Merchants, that also minimizes Econ disadvantages.
 
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Corripere said:
Brown-water navy is needed if we want to boost our trade. I think it's worth it if we take Vaccinations, as we will have the beginnings of a pharmaceutical industry, which is rare indeed int these parts.
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I agree that those would be great things to have, I'm just not sure that they're worth the Maluses needed to afford them. The absence of a navy removes an advantage but doesn't create a threat and it leaves us with a marginal naval ability (technical boats). The absence of Vaccinations does create the threat of epidemic disease, but between Vaccinations and Merchants it costs as much as the nuke does (and that nuke is going to end up in someone else's hands if we don't buy it... and there's no way we can afford to buy it).
 
EBR said:
I agree that those would be great things to have, I'm just not sure that they're worth the Maluses needed to afford them. The absence of a navy removes an advantage but doesn't create a threat and it leaves us with a marginal naval ability (technical boats). The absence of Vaccinations does create the threat of epidemic disease, but between Vaccinations and Merchants it costs as much as the nuke does (and that nuke is going to end up in someone else's hands if we don't buy it... and there's no way we can afford to buy it).
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If we get big enough, the combined effect of several plagues could cumulatively do as much damage to us as a single well-placed B83 bomb.
 
EBR said:
I agree, but I don't know that it's worth taking Victorian Sympathizers or Population Boom to pay for. And I think that Established is an absolute necessity- if simply because the DM said they won't be happy if we fail to form a government.
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Not necessarily--we can always form it afterwards, as Poptart corrected me on before, and be fine. Established feels mostly like a +5 initial turns thing.
 
Fair enough. Hostile Neighborhood and Disastrous Start probably don't mix well, and we don't seriously need the intel thing. It looks kinda short, but here's an even smaller plan.

[] Plan Super Simple
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP + 2 CP = 6 CP spent.

Edit: @PoptartProdigy
 
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Simon_Jester said:
The existence of violent fringe elements to disrupt the finalization of our national constitution and fight against the new government will massively complicate "the process of government establishment," and having Vik sympathizers in our polity could easily massively complicate "fending off the Victorians."

We may reach a point under this plan where we'll be fighting a four front war against three simultaneous internal insurgencies AND an external army.

I approve of Brown-Water Navy if we can afford it. But I don't think we can afford Resistance Contacts and I question your choice of maluses beyond that.
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I did this plan partly because I wanted to see one with Resistance Contacts.
Choice of maluses... Disastrous Start leaves us without info on neighbours - but, as Resistance Contacts are included, I would hope that it would allow us to learn that somebody is colluding with Victorians.
Population Boom - more bodies to throw at rebuilding, with Merchants and Vaccinations hopefully blunting adverse effects.
Fringe Elements and Victorian Sympathisers... Partly due to unwilingness to commit to any military/tech maluses, partly due to the fact that both of these problems have a single solution of propaganda.
 
Alright, folks, finalize your plans overnight. When you have a version with which you're happy, tag me with it. If you change your mind on that, kindly edit out the tags so I'm not choosing expired versions. When I update tomorrow, I'll feature your plan so that it gets some visibility.
 
Simon_Jester said:
If we get big enough, the combined effect of several plagues could cumulatively do as much damage to us as a single well-placed B83 bomb.
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You're right! But how do we pay for it without weakening ourselves internally to an unacceptable degree?

Corripere said:
Not necessarily--we can always form it afterwards, as Poptart corrected me on before, and be fine. Established feels mostly like a +5 initial turns thing.
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I suppose. But it could be the difference between fighting Victoria as a city-state versus fighting Victoria as a small country. I agree that Established is a short-term thing, but in the apocalypse you have to think short-term IMHO or you won't get a chance to think long-term.

Derpmind said:
Fair enough. Hostile Neighborhood and Disastrous Start probably don't mix well, and we don't seriously need the intel thing. It looks kinda short, but here's an even smaller plan.

[] Plan Super Simple
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP + 2 CP = 6 CP spent.
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I like it. It's basic, but it covers the bare necessities and leaves our new state strong if limited and without any major internal or external weaknesses.
 
I think the fundamental gaps for this vote span two divides.

1) Rails/Navy or both.
2) Many vs few disadvantages.

There is a central Pop Boom/Vaccines/Libraries* consensus.

*for most
 
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Derpmind said:
Fair enough. Hostile Neighborhood and Disastrous Start probably don't mix well, and we don't seriously need the intel thing. It looks kinda short, but here's an even smaller plan.

[] Plan Super Simple
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP + 2 CP = 6 CP spent.
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In terms of a minimal plan, it may be better to swap import/export for a population boom, while grabbing efficient bureaucracy instead of Established. As it means that we don't have to make a new bureaucracy and already have all of the administrative tools to do stuff. It would probably save us a multitude larger amount of actions. Plus, then we can fairly quickly get established through a simple expansion.
 
Corripere said:
Not necessarily--we can always form it afterwards, as Poptart corrected me on before, and be fine. Established feels mostly like a +5 initial turns thing.
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If we have maluses likely to cause serious problems in the early game (like Population Boom, or, y'know, Victorian Attention) then bonuses to early action economy could be very helpful.

Dwergar said:
I did this plan partly because I wanted to see one with Resistance Contacts.
Choice of maluses... Disastrous Start leaves us without info on neighbours - but, as Resistance Contacts are included, I would hope that it would allow us to learn that somebody is colluding with Victorians.
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I don't know if our Resistance Contacts are that reliable. That one strikes me as more of a long-term bonus, in that if we can get ourselves established and go on the counter-offensive, having allies in (what is then left of) the Victorian Resistance will help us quite a bit.

Fringe Elements and Victorian Sympathisers... Partly due to unwilingness to commit to any military/tech maluses, partly due to the fact that both of these problems have a single solution of propaganda.
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No one set of propaganda will convince three widely disparate groups with different and mutually exclusive ideologies to lay down their arms.
 
Corripere said:
I seriously, seriously doubt that anybody would work with the Victorians, given they're literally the incarnation of everything that went wrong. And I serious, seriously doubt that Victoria would work with anybody, considering any organization in the wasteland is anathema to them. And, frankly, given the autocratic leanings of our neighbors, I don't feel particularly interested in making them our allies.
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Woah, I think you're making some dangerous assumptions here. I have no doubt that it can look like Mad Max outside of the various territories of the factions, but the map doesn't mark any organized group that has control over even half a state. We could meander further south-west and find a Mormon enclave or further north into Canada to find a survival cult. Obviously there's going to be some bad hombres out there, but I also have no doubt that we can find people who have advanced social and moral thought to at least think beyond what they must take and what they're willing to do to take.
 
Foxwood said:
Woah, I think you're making some dangerous assumptions here. I have no doubt that it can look like Mad Max outside of the various territories of the factions, but the map doesn't mark any organized group that has control over even half a state. We could meander further south-west and find a Mormon enclave or further north into Canada to find a survival cult. Obviously there's going to be some bad hombres out there, but I also have no doubt that we can find people who have advanced social and moral thought to at least think beyond what they must take and what they're willing to do to take.
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I mean, Poptart:
Someone else: we don't recognize non-democracies as legitimate governments
Poptart: You are gonna have a really rough time diplomatically annexing the vast majority of the country with that attitude

EDIT:
Our neighbors might be great guys, but I can't exactly count on it. And if they're great guys, then disastrous start for intelligence just doesn't matter existentially at all.
 
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[ ] Plan Everyone Loves Riding the L
-[ ] Established
-[ ] Good Reputation
-[ ] Good Security
-[ ] Victorian Sympathizers
-[ ] Rail Companies
-[ ] Population Boom
-[ ] Libraries

@PoptartProdigy
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
China sponsors a puppet state for the resources, aiming for a trans-Pacific dominion. Russia, eager to weaken and distract its most powerful land neighbor, enlists Japanese help in fucking with them, agreeing that Japan gets to colonize the Pacific Northwest once China is put in place. Russia will play peacekeeper, favoring Japan in the crisis. Japan, having gone neo-imperialist (I presume the nationalists finally got their way in all the chaos and put either Akihito or Naruhito in charge), is more than happy to revisit this whole Co-Prosperity idea. Rumford is there as an NC observer with no military authority. Rumford makes his masters regret this with the aforementioned smuggled bomb. Tsar Alexander manages to shut Rumford up before the idiot can claim responsibility. He pins the whole thing on Japan. China nearly declares war over the matter and Russia has to threaten a nuclear exchange if war breaks out. The world is closer to nuclear war than any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis, and all because Rumford had to flex for the sake of his ego. Cascadia collapses, Tsar Alexander vents by personally pushing the button on the drone strike which wipes out the Resistance's leadership, and Cascadia dissolves into a collection of Japanese-controlled puppet states.
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wait hold up Poptart

you're telling me this one incident got the world closer to nuclear war than during the Chinese Reunification Wars?

holy shit i can see why alexander really wanted to accidentally Rumford right then and there.
 
Corripere said:
I think the fundamental gaps for this vote span two divides.

1) Rails/Navy or both.
2) Many vs few disadvantages.

There is a central Pop Boom/Vaccines/Libraries* consensus.

*for most
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I like your assessment.

I can't imagine debating Libraries, and Vaccines is unquestionably valuable if we can afford it. Population Boom seems like it could become an advantage in the long term, but in the short term I think it mandates railway over navy. A railway can bring in more food immediately, but we'll have to develop/do things with our navy before we can bring in food via river travel.
 
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Canon Omake: The Latest Green Mountain Boys
  • Sidestory
    • -Gore
    I know you think I'm crazy, that this is only going to end with me dying. But I can't forget what they've done. If I'm going to die, it'll be from trying to make a difference…

    Did you know I was there when they sacked UVM? I saw my friends, people I'd worked with, professors and faculty I'd known for years, shot dead. I saw them burn the libraries, the museum… we had two reliefs that had been taken from the palace of Ashurbanipal. They survived a journey of thousands of miles and 2500 years, and I saw them smashed to pieces by bastards that didn't even know what they were.

    It's not any better these days, you can't deny that. We work all day growing food that goes off east, get paid pennies for it, and we can't even relax. They banned alcohol a decade ago, weed's been gone since they took over, there's not a single ski mountain left that's open to locals without charging as much as we make a year.

    I know they took your brother last year, don't try to deny it. What even was it? "Un-patriotic activities"? "Caught planning sedition against the majority rule"? Did they figure out he was an Athiest? They're turning the place I grew up in and loved into a hell-hole, and I'm done letting them.

    Look, I know what you think, but this isn't a suicide mission. Vermont's got even less people now than we did before everything went crazy, and we weren't exactly packed back then… there's a lot of space out there where they don't know where to look. I've got plans on how to use that.

    Back before the old US got independence from the British, The Green Mountain Boys were born. They were formed to fight New York, but their best work ended up being against the Crown. Well, this time we know exactly who our enemy is. The Green Mountain Boys are coming back, and we're not going away until Victoria is history.
    -Letter found by Victorian secret police, believed to be written by "Ethan Allen", mysterious leader of rebel group The Green Mountain Boys.



    AN: Wanted to write something representing my neck of the woods. When even was Vermont taken? The time-line goes straight from "Annexes New Hampshire" to "Annexes Northern New York", and we fought a war to not be in either of those states.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • 1) Libraries is the most important single thing. Lots and lots of advantages seem real important, and real painful not to have, but Libraries strikes me as the fundamental difference between a city, and survivors squatting in the ruins of a city. I can't vote for any plan that doesn't have this, no matter how clever the build.

    2) In a system where every disadvantage looks like some kinda disaster or another, Disunited Currency seems like it'll merely be a lingering pain in the ass instead of a looming calamity. I find myself gravitating towards builds with this.

    Though, like I said before, it'd be best if we could pair it with Efficient Bureaucracy, so we actually have the tools to fix it later.

    I actually dig the story this tells. A group of disparate towns and cities banding together, encountering a big problem caused by their disunity, which is solved not by Hard Men, but by cityfolk nerds working as a team. It feels like such a contrast to the anti-intellectualism, de-urbanism, decentralization, and machismo of Victoria.
     
    []Securing a better Tommorow V2.B
    -[]Libraries
    -[]Universities
    -[]Independant Merchants
    -[]Widespread Vaccinations
    -[]Brown Water Navy
    -[]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
    -[]Population Boom
    -[]Hostile Neighborhood
    -[]Disunited Currency
    -[]Disastrous Start
    -[]Compromised

    @PoptartProdigy
    If it needs a decision on source of equipment, make it EU; if it needs more specific than that, EU France or EU Germany.
     
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