Remove ads

Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)

Reader mode
Chaosmancer said:
So, you fully admit to taking an post that was three paragraphs of them explaining their position in fairly clear terms, after you had had a multiple post discussion with them, and pulling out only the least important thing they said as a throw-away response? I notice you never went back and actually addressed the meat of their post, to either agree or disagree.

And no, I don't think your phrasing was particularly polite, especially with your choice of italicizing and emphasizing. You, of course, COULDN'T tell them they are wrong, because we have no knowledge of whether or not they were incorrect. Assuming that the people we met on an island that they clearly tend to and care for with zero other knowledge of them or view of more than a single location of that island, actually live on that island is... perfectly reasonable.

And when I call out that you did exactly what you admit to doing, you want to turn it around on me, put words in my mouth and level accusations to undercut my credibility as well. No, I never stated that I "don't support writing posts about things that aren't important". What I will state is I found your response to Ilbgar123's post where they lay out a very reasonable concern and position to be rude and dismissive for no good reason. And I'll follow that up with not caring overly much about you putting words in my mouth to paint me as you wish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Chaosmancer, I addressed one detail. I asked Ilbgar a question about one detail.

I did not do this because I am dismissing the rest of what Ilbgar said somehow. I did this because I've seen people make assumptions there before.

I'm allowed to care about things you don't think are important.

I'm allowed to care about these things, even when I'm not choosing to write a position paper on the "main focus" of someone's post just because I quoted them about some minor detail.

...

You are going attack dog on me over a matter that you yourself claim is inconsequential. Or would be inconsequential, of course, except that my conduct is unacceptable to you. In other words, you are trying to police my conduct for failing to comply with your rules and boundaries in a conversation that did not involve you.

Ilbgar is an adult. If Ilbgar feels offended, he can speak for himself. He and I have had reasonably healthy interactions before. He could approach me directly if he felt insulted. Or he could use the Report button, because on SV we have a rule about "Be Civil."

Hell, you could report me for being uncivil if you really think I was objectively being rude in a way that a normal or typical person would think was a serious problem.

Ilbgar does not need you to chase me to the ends of the earth to avenge the horrible insult he (hasn't) suffered at my hands. I even went and asked him, and his reply was, essentially, that he didn't think it was important.

But you seem to.

The way you're acting, and the way you have chosen an incredibly minor and subjective 'offense' to 'take me to task' for, borders on harassment.

Please, just stop.
 
RadiantPhoenix said:
I'm not quite sure how that connects to my idea, but:

In the manga, we have several examples of the Silver Crystal being removed from Usagi (Sr):
  • BMC Arc: Chibi taking it from Neo-Queen Serenity: she winds up unconscious and inside some kind of crystal, which I assume she manifested herself, but it might have come from someone else, or been prepared for this occasion because time travel. It's not clear whether the "unconscious" is because of the loss of the Crystal, or because of the BMC's attack, or, you know, playing dead to avoid a paradox and allow Chibi to finally start growing again after almost 900 years.
  • BMC Arc: Chibi taking it from 20th Century Usagi: 20th Century Usagi chases after her
  • Death Busters Arc: (I'm not 100% sure if this is the same Silver Crystal) Mistress 9 taking it from Chibi along with her brooch, while Transformed: Chibi winds up unconscious, with her soul in Mistress 9's hands. (which might have just been taken along with the Crystal)
  • DMC Arc: Nehelenia takes it from Usagi Sr along with her brooch, while Transformed: Usagi Sr starts to collapse (possibly from surprise, possibly from the loss of the crystal, possibly from a weakening of her Senshi Transformation...) , but then Mamoru kisses her and the Silver Crystal teleports back to her
I don't see an immediately obvious pattern.

EDIT: I suppose the pattern is "if you take it from her while she's Transformed, that might be debilitating, but, if she's not Transformed, she's basically fine."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
More notes:
  • In the Dark Kingdom arc, when Zombie Tux steals the Silver Crystal and runs off with Venus while Sailor Moon is still Transformed, she is able to chase him while Transformed.
  • It's unclear how much of the 30th century stuff was "normal", how much was caused by the Dark Crystal, and how much was caused by Usagi Sr's bad headspace. Once she got into a better headspace, she was able to basically ignore all the stuff meant to suppress her powers. (and very specifically her powers, and those of the Inners)
  • After Chibi swiped the Silver Crystal (for reasons related to being bullied at school), the Black Moon Clan dropped a Dark Crystal monolith (the thing that suppresses her powers and does a bunch of other awful stuff), then attacked NQS, at which point... NQS sealed herself in crystal.
  • When Tux (under Black Lady's control) grabs Sailor Moon's brooch (with her Silver Crystal in it), it breaks her transformation and she falls down... but, maybe a minute later, when Pluto stops time, Usagi just pops out of the Time Stop, stands back up and plucks the two Silver Crystals from Demande's hands (he is unable to break out of the Time Stop)

Also:
  • All of the Senshi, and Tux, and pre-Senshi Black Lady (Chibi), are able to break free and act during Pluto's timestop. This might be intentional on Pluto's part.
  • Before becoming Black Lady, Chibi was in a really bad headspace. Combined with how manga Black Lady seems to mainly act on Chibi's pre-established desire to feel powerful, anger at her mother, and desire to claim her father as her lover, I'm not sure we can even consider the existence of Black Lady to be a feat of mind control. (in the OTL)

EDIT: it's worth noting that, after the DK arc, I'm pretty sure that every time someone took the Silver Crystal from Usagi-Sr-as-Sailor-Moon, they were also taking her Transformation brooch.
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
Chaosmancer, I addressed one detail. I asked Ilbgar a question about one detail.

I did not do this because I am dismissing the rest of what Ilbgar said somehow. I did this because I've seen people make assumptions there before.

I'm allowed to care about things you don't think are important.

I'm allowed to care about these things, even when I'm not choosing to write a position paper on the "main focus" of someone's post just because I quoted them about some minor detail.

...

You are going attack dog on me over a matter that you yourself claim is inconsequential. Or would be inconsequential, of course, except that my conduct is unacceptable to you. In other words, you are trying to police my conduct for failing to comply with your rules and boundaries in a conversation that did not involve you.

Ilbgar is an adult. If Ilbgar feels offended, he can speak for himself. He and I have had reasonably healthy interactions before. He could approach me directly if he felt insulted. Or he could use the Report button, because on SV we have a rule about "Be Civil."

Hell, you could report me for being uncivil if you really think I was objectively being rude in a way that a normal or typical person would think was a serious problem.

Ilbgar does not need you to chase me to the ends of the earth to avenge the horrible insult he (hasn't) suffered at my hands. I even went and asked him, and his reply was, essentially, that he didn't think it was important.

But you seem to.

The way you're acting, and the way you have chosen an incredibly minor and subjective 'offense' to 'take me to task' for, borders on harassment.

Please, just stop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I made two posts.

One was basically a sentence calling you out. The other was a response to you responding directly to me where you put words in my mouth and tried to discredit me.

That is "attack dogging" and "chasing you to the ends of the earth"? I'm harassing you with this? Really? No, let's be frank here. No, I'm not. Not even close. Yes, I am fully aware that Ilbgar123 doesn't need me to fight battles for them, I'm not fighting their battles for them. I pointed out you were being rude and that it bothered me. Is this a serious problem that requires the moderators to get involved in because it breaks the rules of the site? God I hope not, because that level of moderation would be unbearable. And this entire thread would have been shut down multiple times over, let alone the rest of the site.

And yes, I fully am aware that you care about people making assumptions. You call people out on their "assumptions" all the time. Sometimes in ways that I agree with, other times in ways that almost seem like they are designed to end the conversation by de-railing into a tangent. And, as I addressed in the last post, their "assumption" wasn't even important to their post, and was a completely logical assumption to make, one that you actually cannot disprove or even argue against beyond a lack of definitive proof. Yes, you can care that we don't have definitive proof that the Muses live on Samothrace, but that has nothing to do with anything and if you want to call people out on that constantly... well, that's your right I suppose. But when I called you out in the same manner once, you immediately went on the attack to ascribe malicious motivations to me, trying to paint me as some sort of tyrant trying to enforce my view on others.

I was willing to drop this with my single post I made, you are the one who has started desperately tearing into me like I'm sort of existential threat to you. And I respond to people who respond to me. That's how conversations work.
 
Alright, would you two stop tossing effort-posts at each other whining about how you're tossing effort-posts at each other?

It's getting tiresome and could easily be relocated to private messages.
 
RadiantPhoenix said:
I'm not sure we can even consider the existence of Black Lady to be a feat of mind control.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eh, I'm pretty sure it's a case of her having her "inner dark desires" brought to the front, then having them amplified and (hopefully) twisted by the mind control to solidify it.

So I'm pretty sure she doesn't naturally want to kill her mama, destroy Crystal Tokyo, and turn her father into her love slave.

Hopefully.

I think she was just upset with her mom, fearful of the people (due to the long-term bullying), and seeking comfort in her father. Then Wiseman has to use dark magic and make it all really weird, the creep!

Seriously, that's really fucked up, and I suspect the Inners are going to skin him for it.
 
Last edited:
That being said I wonder what version of Professor Tomoe we're going with here. They'll either feel immense pity for him (Anime) or complete disgust towards him (Manga/Crystal)
 
Well she did not turn in an instant, she presumably had decades, if not centuries, of downard slope before becomming the head Shaman and starting of the apocalypse.
Also PreCure's work in close knitted teams, which is going to reinforce whatever the team dynamic is (in this case, saving the world and being very friendly), not sure of Shamans had that.
 
Slindet said:
That being said I wonder what version of Professor Tomoe we're going with here. They'll either feel immense pity for him (Anime) or complete disgust towards him (Manga/Crystal)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And then there's the Sailor Moon: Another Story video game, a SNES RPG from the 90s, which throws both continuities together with a time travel plot. That story is the best kind of crazy.
 
Razzocnor said:
Alright, would you two stop tossing effort-posts at each other whining about how you're tossing effort-posts at each other?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm tired of letting would-be bullies get in the last word against me just because they've decided harassing me over perceived slights and wrongdoing is good clean fun. If I have to do this alone, or alone except for both-sidesing, I'm not going to just smile and absorb shots taken at me quietly. Nobody should have to do that.

But I'll start using fewer words instead of more.

Chaosmancer said:
I made two posts.

One was basically a sentence calling you out. The other was a response to you responding directly to me where you put words in my mouth and tried to discredit me.

That is "attack dogging" and "chasing you to the ends of the earth"? I'm harassing you with this? Really? No, let's be frank here. No, I'm not. Not even close. Yes, I am fully aware that Ilbgar123 doesn't need me to fight battles for them, I'm not fighting their battles for them. I pointed out you were being rude and that it bothered me. Is this a serious problem that requires the moderators to get involved in because it breaks the rules of the site? God I hope not, because that level of moderation would be unbearable. And this entire thread would have been shut down multiple times over, let alone the rest of the site.

And yes, I fully am aware that you care about people making assumptions. You call people out on their "assumptions" all the time. Sometimes in ways that I agree with, other times in ways that almost seem like they are designed to end the conversation by de-railing into a tangent. And, as I addressed in the last post, their "assumption" wasn't even important to their post, and was a completely logical assumption to make, one that you actually cannot disprove or even argue against beyond a lack of definitive proof. Yes, you can care that we don't have definitive proof that the Muses live on Samothrace, but that has nothing to do with anything and if you want to call people out on that constantly... well, that's your right I suppose. But when I called you out in the same manner once, you immediately went on the attack to ascribe malicious motivations to me, trying to paint me as some sort of tyrant trying to enforce my view on others.

I was willing to drop this with my single post I made, you are the one who has started desperately tearing into me like I'm sort of existential threat to you. And I respond to people who respond to me. That's how conversations work.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Chaosmancer, you were 'willing to drop this' after a brief post which consists 100% of you saying to me 'who cares' and 'it doesn't matter' and generally trashing my own brief post on the grounds that you don't like its contents.

In other words, other people are in the wrong for responding to you about what you said to them, after you responded to them over something that didn't involve you. You're willing to drop a conversation, but only as long as you get the last, nastiest word.

How generous of you to be 'willing to drop this' on those terms. Such a big man.

You say that moderation that would go after my original post would be "unbearable." I submit that this is just as true when you're doing it as an off-the-clock vigilante as when an actual mod with an appeals process and, importantly, standards does it formally.

ShiftingSandLand said:
Eh, I'm pretty sure it's a case of her having her "inner dark desires" brought to the front, then having them amplified and (hopefully) twisted by the mind control to solidify it.

So I'm pretty sure she doesn't naturally want to kill her mama, destroy Crystal Tokyo, and turn her father into her love slave.

Hopefully.

I think she was just upset with her mom, fearful of the people (due to the long-term bullying), and seeking comfort in her father. Then Wiseman has to use dark magic and make it all really weird, the creep!

Seriously, that's really fucked up, and I suspect the Inners are going to skin him for it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this is very well said.

Also, too, I think that Black Lady's personality based on a sort of very screwy idea of what "inner dark desires" a person "really" has if they "grow up." For instance, why is Black Lady an aged-up version of Chibiusa? Because she wants to grow up. Well, what child wouldn't, especially after a prolonged X-century childhood? And then, the evil corruptive entity thinks, what is the 'grown up' versions of her desires? Well, 'clearly' anger should become intent to murder, resentment for harassment should become a desire to destroy, and a need for emotional comfort should become sexually charged possessiveness.

There's an idea built into all this that more 'advanced' or 'powerful' desires are, to borrow the TVTropes phrase, "darker and edgier."

The one shining light here is that Black Lady seems to have gotten a very profound makeover as a character. She's clearly still a brainwashed aged-up Chibiusa, but all the details are different and in frankly much more interesting ways that I'm looking forward to seeing unraveled.

It's quite possible that we'll need to find something else to want to atomize Wiseman slowly over. 'Fortunately,' he seems primed to give us reasons.
 
Staff Notice: You're getting a little close to a Rule 2 issue here
Slindet said:
How do you skin a skeleton?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Valmond said:
Well, first you heal them so they once again have flesh and skin and all the usually included nerve endings attached.
If you have found a skeleton that never had flesh and skin, it gets somewhat trickier.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That. But slowly. And without anesthetic.

But thankfully, that doesn't seem to be the case here. Instead it seems like Little Lady's doing her rebellious goth phase while (potentially) running a deep cover op.
 
ShiftingSandLand said:
That. But slowly. And without anesthetic.

But thankfully, that doesn't seem to be the case here. Instead it seems like Little Lady's doing her rebellious goth phase while (potentially) running a deep cover op.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It would be funny if, when doing a climactic showdown, we just tell her to go home or we will remember to ground her.
Assuming there are non senshi allies, the looks we'd get would be hilarious.
 
Please keep the torture fantasies in check.
We're the good guys. If they can be turned, healed or purified, we do that.

If they are beyond salvation, we end them swiftly and cleanly.
 
And assuming we have the means to contain them, given eternity, very, very few beings are beyond, well, i dislike the term salvation, so i'll go with rehabilitation instead.
 
veekie said:
Please keep the torture fantasies in check.
We're the good guys. If they can be turned, healed or purified, we do that.

If they are beyond salvation, we end them swiftly and cleanly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's Wiseman!

He's like, maximum creep factor. Disco-ass skeleton looking bastard mind-controlling girls that look like ten year olds into trying to do the nasty with their father.

If anyone in Sailor Moon is getting locked in a cold, dark, sterile room with all of Mercury's clinical knowledge and cold fury, it's gonna be him.

I'm not saying we're doing it (honestly he's probably getting a Wave Motion Moonbeam to the face), but if it happens, it's gonna be him.
 
Last edited:
Wiseman is an aspect of Chaos and so probably not redeemable, but equally trying to punish it doesn't make sense. It's not like you can threaten it into not being an aspect of Chaos.
 
Admittedly from what various wikis are claiming Let's Not Immediately Jump To Murder is actually what caused Wiseman, he was supposedly human at one point before getting booted to Nemesis and fusing with it?
(Of course this assumes the wikis are accurate on that point, and the Wiseman we'd be dealing with first is the post-fusion version so he should probably just be blasted)
 
ShiftingSandLand said:
So I'm pretty sure she doesn't naturally want to kill her mama, destroy Crystal Tokyo, and turn her father into her love slave.

Hopefully.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the manga, she doesn't take her desires as far, normally, but the thing that prompted her to run away was possessive jealousy, and she felt like she already had killed her mother and destroyed CT. She also continues having a crush on her father all the way into the Dream arc, when her interest in Helios makes her "feel like an adulteress".

I think Wiseman picked her up when she was at her lowest, and basically told her to embrace all of that in the worst way, and then was basically just whispering evil nothings into her "ear" the whole way until she saw Pluto die.

There may have been some magical mind control involved, but I don't think we can say so with certainty.

Grue said:
Admittedly from what various wikis are claiming Let's Not Immediately Jump To Murder is actually what caused Wiseman, he was supposedly human at one point before getting booted to Nemesis and fusing with it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My scanlation of Act 22 has Luna and Artemis discover an incident report that claims that NQS tried to kill him but failed due to his powers, only banishing him because she couldn't kill him.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm tired of letting would-be bullies get in the last word against me just because they've decided harassing me over perceived slights and wrongdoing is good clean fun. If I have to do this alone, or alone except for both-sidesing, I'm not going to just smile and absorb shots taken at me quietly. Nobody should have to do that.

But I'll start using fewer words instead of more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So now I'm a bully as well. Glad that you always respond so politely Simon, no one would ever realize what a terrible, inhuman monster I was for pointing out you sort-of acting rude if you didn't constantly slander me


Simon_Jester said:
Chaosmancer, you were 'willing to drop this' after a brief post which consists 100% of you saying to me 'who cares' and 'it doesn't matter' and generally trashing my own brief post on the grounds that you don't like its contents.

In other words, other people are in the wrong for responding to you about what you said to them, after you responded to them over something that didn't involve you. You're willing to drop a conversation, but only as long as you get the last, nastiest word.

How generous of you to be 'willing to drop this' on those terms. Such a big man.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, after posting to say that their post was far more concerned with the ideas of the Muses speaking to the global deity community and that tipping off the Egyptians, rather than the minor assumption you entirely focused on, and that I felt your dismissal of that point was rude I was willing to not comment on this further.

You then posted to accuse me of trying to police what people are talking about and made it out like I give high priority to attacking you personally.

So I responded to clarify.

You then accused me of attack dogging, harrassment, and challenged me to bring the moderators into this. All while declaring that you are absolutely allowed to comment on anything you want.

So I responded with why that seemed a bit excessive, and not at all what I was doing.

You then accused me of being a bully, trashing you, declaring I only want to get in the last "nastiest" word and throwing the "what a big man" card down.


So, other than my responses directly to your personal attacks, the worst I have said of you is "that was kind of rude". In response I am a faux moderator, attack dog, bully, harrasser, who only wants to get in the final, nastiest word which you refuse to yield to me and my tyrannical ways. Oh, and off-the-clock vigilantism that lacks standards.


Simon_Jester said:
You say that moderation that would go after my original post would be "unbearable." I submit that this is just as true when you're doing it as an off-the-clock vigilante as when an actual mod with an appeals process and, importantly, standards does it formally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I submit you are wrong. I'm just a dude without any power or authority. A moderator who can delete or alter your posts, who has the authority to ban you from the site is a far different thing. It is the difference between going to your neighbors and asking that you turn down the music and calling the cops to accuse them of noise pollution and demand a patrolman beat on their door.

Yes, they have an appeals process and formal standards, but there is a level of vicious escalation in it that I didn't think was called for.

Simon_Jester said:
The one shining light here is that Black Lady seems to have gotten a very profound makeover as a character. She's clearly still a brainwashed aged-up Chibiusa, but all the details are different and in frankly much more interesting ways that I'm looking forward to seeing unraveled.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree, I'm very interested to see where Lunaryon takes this version of Black Lady.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Razzocnor said:
Alright, would you two stop tossing effort-posts at each other whining about how you're tossing effort-posts at each other?

It's getting tiresome and could easily be relocated to private messages.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, I could go to private messages. But my "whining" is just me refusing to get called every terrible thing under the sun for daring to say that Simon might have been a bit rude.

Be honest, if it was you being called a bully, harrasser, and attack dog for say... this post right here, would you take to private messages? Would you just let that stand as the last word the community sees, you just meekly accepting those attacks? Maybe you would, and maybe that would be the better thing to do, but I'm not that sort.


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Valmond said:
Well she did not turn in an instant, she presumably had decades, if not centuries, of downard slope before becomming the head Shaman and starting of the apocalypse.
Also PreCure's work in close knitted teams, which is going to reinforce whatever the team dynamic is (in this case, saving the world and being very friendly), not sure of Shamans had that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Oooh, I didn't consider that. There is a way to frame her Lockharting as a "we all look out for each other, right?" sort of cult-mentality that could slowly twist the close-knit nature of the Pretty-Cure's into a force that Beryl uses malevolently.

Geeze, no wonder Naru keeps seeing her visually as the most toxic thing, she could have literally been the original "toxic friend" of the group.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top