RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
She finds a bunch of other deities who are already amenable to believing that it's a bad idea, and convinces them to intervene.
Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That invites the question of what happens to the 'Usagi' avatar if the Silver Crystal is in some meaningful sense disconnected from her, as opposed to being manifested by her.
Very possibly!
Especially given that the Greek gods are, famously, not immune to flattery.
While Zeus is clearly monarch of his particular pantheon and Polyhymnia is not, it's likely that many of the Greek gods like the goddess of hymns, prayers, and devotionals better than they like Zeus!
Good question!
In other words, if Zeus truly wants Polyhymnia to do something against her will, he's going to have to make immediate threats of force.
He will also, presumably, have to refuse to listen to anything Polyhymnia says about the matter. Otherwise, the goddess of convincing gods to do things will probably convince him not to do that.
Now, Zeus certainly isn't above threatening force to get his way with the other Greek gods. Not if Homer's any accurate guide there, anyway. So there's that.
...
Second-order iterative version of the same question:
Consider how this dynamic would iterate over the course of a few thousand years. Let us bear in mind that at the end of our iterative loop, Polyhymnia is still alive and Zeus is presumably still king of the gods.
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FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The only real issue is to counter one Zeus she'd need several big names in her corner, and obviously she'd also need the time and ability to reach those big names to convince them in the first place.
Truly? A matter of time before a successful coup manages to take place, because you can only push a group of people so far by yourself before something finally gives.
Truly? A matter of time before a successful coup manages to take place, because you can only push a group of people so far by yourself before something finally gives.
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- Location
- Dragyxx
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I would guess the answer is 'Zeus spends a lot of time specifically not talking to the Muses, and uses non-god intermediaries'.
Which, given that Zeus really seemed to rarely ask anyone else's opinion before doing anything, checks out pretty well.
Which, given that Zeus really seemed to rarely ask anyone else's opinion before doing anything, checks out pretty well.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Assuming Polyhymnia were inclined to stage a coup and that Zeus has unlimited willingness to push things, yes.
See previous remarks about Polyhymnia's preferred recipe for a relatively happy and above all lengthy life and probable distaste for living dangerously.
To be fair, Polyhymnia is also very good at talking mortals into doing things, but I dare say that you're on to something here!
Yep!
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not quite sure how that connects to my idea, but:
In the manga, we have several examples of the Silver Crystal being removed from Usagi (Sr):
- BMC Arc: Chibi taking it from Neo-Queen Serenity: she winds up unconscious and inside some kind of crystal, which I assume she manifested herself, but it might have come from someone else, or been prepared for this occasion because time travel. It's not clear whether the "unconscious" is because of the loss of the Crystal, or because of the BMC's attack, or, you know, playing dead to avoid a paradox and allow Chibi to finally start growing again after almost 900 years.
- BMC Arc: Chibi taking it from 20th Century Usagi: 20th Century Usagi chases after her
- Death Busters Arc: (I'm not 100% sure if this is the same Silver Crystal) Mistress 9 taking it from Chibi along with her brooch, while Transformed: Chibi winds up unconscious, with her soul in Mistress 9's hands. (which might have just been taken along with the Crystal)
- DMC Arc: Nehelenia takes it from Usagi Sr along with her brooch, while Transformed: Usagi Sr starts to collapse (possibly from surprise, possibly from the loss of the crystal, possibly from a weakening of her Senshi Transformation...) , but then Mamoru kisses her and the Silver Crystal teleports back to her
EDIT: I suppose the pattern is "if you take it from her while she's Transformed, that might be debilitating, but, if she's not Transformed, she's basically fine."
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I understood that, I just think my idea is funnier.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A status quo in which all the gods are busy keeping each other in check seems like a great asset for a clever DIP or INT character, because there's always someone you can turn to who is already opposed to whoever is trying to get you to do things.
FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Assuming you can actually contact said people.
Zeus isn't above putting Gods on house arrest.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
DIP and INT are the stats that let you figure out when that's coming, and, if there's a jailer, convince them that this is something they should disrupt.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Up to a point.
On the other hand, a status quo in which all the gods are busy keeping each other in check and where you have a reputation for going behind God N's back to persuade God N+1 to meddle in God N's plans, potentially for multiple values of 'N...'
Again, see my remarks about how to live a long and peaceful life.
To borrow from Game of Thrones, "Chaos is a ladder" sure seemed to be working well for Littlefinger... except the part where multiple times he had to flee as everything burned down around him, often for reasons he was complicit in, and where eventually he wound up dead.
Let's put it this way.
There are hypothetical scenarios where Zeus (or some other overwhelmingly strong god) decides to try and coerce Polyhymnia (or some other overwhelmingly persuasive god) to act as a proxy and makes it work.
However, most scenarios like this work best as what I've heard thought of as a "white room" scenario. No external uncontrolled variables, no complications, a straightforward test of power and will and absolute maximum effort against absolute maximum effort. It's easy to imagine the scenario working if we imagine Zeus being 100% resolute and determined to make it work at any cost. If Zeus takes elaborate precautions because he's convinced that this must work and dedicates a lot of time and energy to making it work before even beginning to try. If Zeus somehow fortifies himself against any possibility of persuasion. If "there is no tomorrow" and he's not worrying about how his actions will shape his interactions with the people around him for the next thousand years.
But every deviation from the isolated white room scenario makes things muddier, more uncertain, less likely to end in "Zeus gets everything he wants." The white room looks less and less like the reality if one factors in that Zeus may not actually be 100% determined to do things and refuse to even talk about it. Or that Zeus probably likes Polyhymnia because people who can beat a DC 50 Diplomacy check using charades are typically going to be seen as likeable by almost anyone they want. Or that living with the same people for centuries means, for better or for worse, finding some accommodation with them that isn't a constant pain and doesn't destabilize the situation and throw things into chaos every few decades. Et cetera, et cetera.
...
We may observe that a pantheon has been around for thousands of years and has somehow managed to avoid massively slaughtering each other in one round of civil war after another for at least the past few millennia. If this is the case, it seems likely that the pantheon would have reached some kind of equilibrium fairly early on, and that this equilibrium is fairly resilient to disturbances. Which suggests that the individuals within that pantheon will be quite reluctant to upset the applecart without a very good reason to think they must do things in that specific way.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
All I'm saying is that we should be prepared for Poly and co. to be more troublesome actors than 'basically stays on their island and does squat' which doesn't even necessitate belligerence. It's a little like our current relationship with MCAT, where if they decided to do something counter to us, we literally don't have anyone with the Stats to stop them unless they went out of their way to choose a poor battlefield for that.
Sure, the Muses will probably keep it on the down low until they have more to work with than 'new Moon goddess from Japan' and a name that's as much a title as anything else, but we aren't in a position to do anything about it if one of them(Urania, not quite managing the social context, for example) lets slip something that makes it down the gossip grapevine to the Egyptians, who may up their game if they conclude that there's new godlings that may have anti-Masquerade notions causing problems in Japan, and they're in the 30s in Prowess at the low end, particularly since anti-Pandora tactics and anti-Moon deity spells aren't going to be the same.
There's probably Noom spells(which may have limited effectiveness on Usagi for a number of reasons) they can prep for Usagi, Yrucrem spells for Ami, and so on, but they currently have no idea they might need those.
Sure, the Muses will probably keep it on the down low until they have more to work with than 'new Moon goddess from Japan' and a name that's as much a title as anything else, but we aren't in a position to do anything about it if one of them(Urania, not quite managing the social context, for example) lets slip something that makes it down the gossip grapevine to the Egyptians, who may up their game if they conclude that there's new godlings that may have anti-Masquerade notions causing problems in Japan, and they're in the 30s in Prowess at the low end, particularly since anti-Pandora tactics and anti-Moon deity spells aren't going to be the same.
There's probably Noom spells(which may have limited effectiveness on Usagi for a number of reasons) they can prep for Usagi, Yrucrem spells for Ami, and so on, but they currently have no idea they might need those.
- Location
- Earth
Regarding Pretty Cure, I feel like with the Desert Apostles, the Senshi may get involved if Dune still kills the Heart Tree. The entire world becoming a desert would get the attention of the Senshi and a few other MG groups who would want to know what the hell did that.
Dune doing this would also slaughter the Masquerade lmao
Dune doing this would also slaughter the Masquerade lmao
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Point of Order: Who cares? It is literally the least important part of what they were talking about. That's like taking a discussion talking about how we deal with the Youma crisis on the horizon and asking "But what color is Beryl's Dress?". It doesn't matter.
FictionPack
Monochromatic Ursine
- Location
- Tennessee
- Pronouns
- He/Him
But what if she's wearing white after Labor Day?!
Or worse, she's dressing in colors similar to how Endymion dresses to attract him like some sort of fashion disaster peacock!? We don't want her going around as some kind of evil Dumbledore cosplayer.
Ami: Actually female peacocks are called peahens and they tend to have much duller coloring. They're mostly shades of brown except for a few green and blue feathers around the neck. So if she were going for that angle, all she would need is a tacky feather boa.
Minako: Not the point, Ami!
Minako: Not the point, Ami!
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I don't see why we would expect to end up opposing the Muses anyway. Our main activities are breaking the Masquerade and fighting monsters trying to eat people and/or destroy the world. I don't expect the Muses particularly care for the Masquerade, or to support any of our enemy factions (they're not exactly supporters of the arts).
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Being obligated to pretend to be a metaphor while doing your thing does sound tiresome, yeah.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I mean, Beryl strikes me as the type to wear a tacky feather boa, given the chance. Maybe we could use one as bait for a trap!
- Location
- Dragyxx
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Hmm, I mean, the Dark Kingdom uses really obvious plot hooks all the time.
Nothing says we can't turn it back on them, bait a trap with a really obvious Thing They Want.
Or organize another Magical Girl gathering with full knowledge it will turn into a massive brawl.
Nothing says we can't turn it back on them, bait a trap with a really obvious Thing They Want.
Or organize another Magical Girl gathering with full knowledge it will turn into a massive brawl.
Yeah if we ever bait the dark kingdom it will prolly become a true old west saloon brawl because the bait we put up was too good to pass up and many of the other villains showed up because of it.
Seriously from the various things we could probably use as bait, the Silver Crystal (when we get that) or jewel seeds are prolly the strongest bait we have.
Seriously from the various things we could probably use as bait, the Silver Crystal (when we get that) or jewel seeds are prolly the strongest bait we have.
"Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?"