Well, even if they don't know exactly how it works, it rather quickly becomes obvious that the Jewel Seeds can turn things into giant monsters.

And we have lots of Pretty Cure villains who would immediately think 'So what if I use it to make a Zakenna/Uzania/Kowaina/whatever? Will it be EXTRA BIG?', plus the Youma who would go 'I want to be a giant monster. Maybe if I eat it?', and who knows who else who might just pick up that they radiate a lot of magic and want to use them as power sources.
 
Yeah, to clear things up the Tree in episode 3 hasn't happened yet, and episode four is when Nanoha normally meets fate. It is at this point some... 15-ish hours since she first picked up Raising Heart at this point. She has sealed the one blobby thing last night, and that is about it.

EDIT: Oh right, also that four eyed dog thing.
Both?

Nanoha: "Hi, I'm Nanoha Takamachi. An incident happened yesterday, and that's how I was introduced to magic. My partner is Raising Heart, a magic staff with a heart of her own. We'll do our best, so leave the fighting to us!"

Minako: "Oh..." [flashbacks] "...How did it go?"

Nanoha: [Explains entire plot of Episodes 1 and 2]

Minako: "Um... honey? It's not normal for the monster to just beat itself to death trying to break through a wall. You're going to need a plan next time."

Nanoha: "I... I'm still very new at this, but I want to do it properly!"
[eyes harden in tiny nine year old determination]
Nanoha: "What do you recommend, Venus-senpai?"

Minako: "Well, you can't go far wrong with giant magic lasers. That's what works for me!"

Nanoha: "..."

Nanoha: "........."

Nanoha: "..............."

Minako: [waves hand in front of Nanoha's face] "Uh... hello? Venus to Nanoha, do you read me?"

Nanoha: "Giant... magic... lasers..."
[background fades to pink with sparkles]
[returns to normal]
Nanoha, bowing hastily: "I never thought of that Venus-senpai that's brilliant Venus-senpai I won't let you down Venus-senpai!"
[is lost in thought and unresponsive but dreamy looking]

Minako: "...Why do I get the feeling that I've set in motion something terrible and glorious?"
 
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Yeah the Jewel Seeds are just trying to grant wishes using their onboard power supply with a missing database. It just takes the first grantable wish in a nearby trigger and grants it full power.

Like a kitten wanting to be big, so it made kitty house sized, Nanoha's brother was ogling girls at the pool so it made a water elemental intent on stripping swimsuits.

Forced activation at sea made a half dozen waterspouts when it tried to grant wishes to mindless water.

So if it encounters Usagi, it'd probably make a sixty foot tall marshmallow man...
 
So if it encounters Usagi, it'd probably make a sixty foot tall marshmallow man...
Just as long as no one crosses the streams...

Edit:
Raising Heart: "S t a n d b y r e a d y."

Minako: "I don't know what that means but it sounds like agreement. And somehow... smug?"
Pretty sure Mid-Childen devices actually respond in English, or some variation thereof. Could just be an Anime thing, but given Belken devices call in German, and Belken spells tend to have German names...? Might be one of those coincidence things that gets hand-waved away as actually being a distinct language. I still think it'd be neat if they somehow did actually reflect Earth languages given that Un-Administrated World #97 is supposed to be a backwater, and yet all these device languages are reflected in the native languages of some of their major nations.
 
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He was talking about the unnatural geometry, not that it was made of metal and gems. Reread the description. It's a 'throne' made of non-euclidean geometry, the kind of stuff you'd see from Lovecraft, or MC Escher, not a Nature God.

That isn't how he counter-pointed, when he brought up that they should be made of "natural materials, or be surrounded by lush living things", or when talking about it being barren. That has nothing at all to do with non-euclidean geometry. Even in some of his initial posts you speaks about how it looks "sinister and conspicuously made of artificial materials". Not that was non-euclidean.

The non-euclidean nature of what you are talking about is actually perfectly natural for what we can assume is happening. Beryl is "sitting" in a metaphorical "Throne". She is not physically in that space, she is metaphorically in that space. It is a dream vision, a conceptual understanding, not physically seeing her. Because the throne she is physically sitting on is not the Throne she is "sitting" on.

To explain using Geography. If I told you I was sitting at the center of the British Empire, then considering it stretched from Africa, to North America, to islands in the South Pacific, you could easily say that the Center would be somewhere in the Middle East. But, in actuality, I would be sitting in London, because that was the center of the Empire symbolically, even if it was not physically in the center. The same thing is happening with Beryl here, we are getting a visual representation of the metaphysical.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Due to the Throne's eldritch nature, I'm suspecting that maybe it's not related to Beasts or Men or Monsters, that it's a completely Alien thing that only Drunk-Usagi would have a proper understanding of. The description feels like nothing else we have encountered so far; there's a chance where even if we showed it to Endymion, he wouldn't know what to make of it.

I think it only appears that way because we were given multiple bizarre things, and we are mixing them.

There is the folded space of the Void.
There is a the massive obsidian pillar that contains the Silver Crystal and Metallia (who is also in the Sun)
There is the Throne sitting "in front of" the Pillar. Which is 20 ft tall, and almost like a mountain in a lake
There is Beryl, sitting on an actual chair throne, with memory foam and stone, reading her crystal ball.

All of these things are weirdly juxtaposed and not actually where they are. In fact, the Throne of Ice and Ruby as Naru states "It floats there in the same emptiness as the rest of everything that the girl has seen, but it is also very much not that." It isn't ACTUALLY in the void, it is conceptually there, because Beryl occupies the Throne.

I'd actually wonder if the Throne was Yggdrasil, if that didn't make zero sense, considering Endymion said he'd visited that Tree, and Beryl would have had to have noticed that. But the description could feel "world tree"-y to a degree. (I've seen a lot of different interpretations of World Trees)
 
Just as long as no one crosses the streams...

Edit:

Pretty sure Mid-Childen devices actually respond in English, or some variation thereof. Could just be an Anime thing, but given Belken devices call in German, and Belken spells tend to have German names...? Might be one of those coincidence things that gets hand-waved away as actually being a distinct language. I still think it'd be neat if they somehow did actually reflect Earth languages given that Un-Administrated World #97 is supposed to be a backwater, and yet all these device languages are reflected in the native languages of some of their major nations.
The joke wasn't that Minako couldn't understand the words, but that intelligent devices have a limited set of phrases but can express themselves somewhat through context.
 
He was talking about the unnatural geometry, not that it was made of metal and gems. Reread the description. It's a 'throne' made of non-euclidean geometry, the kind of stuff you'd see from Lovecraft, or MC Escher, not a Nature God.
It was both issues.

The point is, nothing about the place Beryl's currently camping out sounds like a natural place or a part of the balance of the natural order. It's not just that it's lifeless, it's not just that it's in a weird spatiodimensional fuckery zone, it's both.

This place might be natural because nature is sometimes stranger than we imagine. Or it might have once been natural only for Beryl to corrupt it into a weird Hell-zone that she likes because she's the only one fully equipped to understand its weirdodystopian characteristics.

But it might also be synthetic, a product of someone's twisted and malevolent designs, either using an old and now destroyed Throne for parts to build it, or creating something entirely artificial to usurp powers not normally available to human(ish) mages like Beryl (was).

Right, but this one isn't unnatural or anti-natural. The description reads "Instead the thing is hewn from stone and ice, rubies and sapphires, and what seems to be almost living veins of metal."

Veins of Metal? Natural
Rubies? Natural
Saphires? Natural
Stone? Natural
Ice? Natural.

Sure, it doesn't look like the throne of a forest god, or a bountiful nature goddess, but what about the throne of a mountain god? A cave God? This is why I feel like this is a conclusion that is difficult to justify jumping to. You are assuming Anima = Natural = plants, wood, fecund life. But the natural world isn't only plants. That is, as you say, thinking naively and stereotypically.
I mean, fine, there could be some kind of Throne of Rock Anima that in the Silver Millennium was occupied by some rock-monster guy or something. I don't know.

But it's divergent enough from what we'd naively suspect to justify exploring alternatives.

...

"Beryl used her keen understanding of the Anima Thrones and her swarm of loyal mind-controlled Shamans to build a synthetic mockery of an Anima Throne and use it to wrongfully usurp the power and mantle of one of the real Anima Thrones" would not be surprising.

And as you yourself pointed out, Endymion went to all the Anima Thrones he knew about. Since Beryl didn't take the convenient opportunity to snap up her mysteriously resurrected grooming victim, it seems likely that Endymion didn't visit the place Beryl is camped out.

So if this throne is, as you speculate, a 'normal' Throne but of something other than the Anima thrones, it seems likely that Endymion didn't know about it, because for some reason he did not go looking for it on his world grand tour. Since Endymion seems fairly knowledgeable about pre-Fall Earth, that in turn suggests that some other, seemingly less likely origin story would have to explain this Throne's presence. It would have to have been hidden from Endymion but not from Beryl, or have to have arisen after the Fall, or something.

Which means we're adding extra contingencies- for this to be a naturally occurring Throne, A and B and maybe C have to be true all at once.

Which is possible.

But again, this is piling up to the point where while I could be wrong and you could be right, I don't think it's fair of you to be acting as though my idea is foolish or illogical. It has potential points where someone could nitpick; it's not a bulletproof syllogism of perfect deductive insight. But then, neither is any other explanation we can construct at this time.

I'd actually wonder if the Throne was Yggdrasil, if that didn't make zero sense, considering Endymion said he'd visited that Tree, and Beryl would have had to have noticed that. But the description could feel "world tree"-y to a degree. (I've seen a lot of different interpretations of World Trees)
We've had it theorized that the World Tree may be a thing that has many instances in many different places on Earth. That would make sense in a way; we know the Norse, for instance, believed that the World Tree connected multiple worlds.

Now, the Norse didn't know that much about geography beyond their immediate region. And the only thing that might reasonably be mistaken for a "World Tree that grants access to other realms" is in Japan, somewhere nowhere near the Norse. Which doesn't mean that, I dunno, Odin couldn't get tipsy and tell some skald about it. But it does suggest the plausible hypothesis that there are many instances of 'the World Tree,' all of them somehow connected, that the Norse knew one of them, and that Beryl's throne (be it an Anima Throne, a synthetic knockoff of such, or something else entirely) could somehow be connected to an instance- either the same one or a different one.

Endymion might have visited one or more instances of Yggdrasil, but not all of them- perhaps because he thought he could learn everything he needed to know at that one instance, and save himself a lot of trouble.
 
Yeah, to clear things up the Tree in episode 3 hasn't happened yet, and episode four is when Nanoha normally meets fate. It is at this point some... 15-ish hours since she first picked up Raising Heart at this point. She has sealed the one blobby thing last night, and that is about it.

EDIT: Oh right, also that four eyed dog thing.

So she hasn't been traumatized into a workaholic yet? We can still save her!

Well, the good news is that, unless I'm quite mistaken, nobody KNOWS that the Jewel Seeds are "technically granting wishes". As far as anyone else is concerned, it's just another thing creating a Monster of the Week. The Jewel Seeds don't have the "in-built temptation for ultimate power" that the Shikon Jewel has; the idea that this mutating power could potentially be harnessed for one's own agenda isn't going to easily occur to anyone else.

Now, there's still a chance that a Youma or Onogoran mage might stumble across one, but I doubt anyone knows enough to try and actively hunt them down.


Plot twist: The Shikon Jewel turns out to be a Jewel Seed the feel down the Bone Eater Well.
 
who knows who else who might just pick up that they radiate a lot of magic and want to use them as power sources.

Wait a minute. If the Jewel Seeds give off what even Earth-bound mages would recognize as magic signatures...

Rokuro, did you ever find that youkai detecting-array design in your family's library?"

For once, Rokuro gave a satisfied grin. "Actually, I found something even better." He reached into his backpack and pulled out a case about the size of a binder. He set it on the table, opened it up, and pulled out what looked like an 8-sided star, with the symbols of the elements placed around it and a Tao Symbol in the center.


"It's an older design, and we need to be careful with it, but the old ways are the good ways, especially since it came with instructions for how to use it. It should be able to pick any youkai in a three-block radius," Rokuro said.

...I'll have to consider this.
 
Well, the good news is that, unless I'm quite mistaken, nobody KNOWS that the Jewel Seeds are "technically granting wishes". As far as anyone else is concerned, it's just another thing creating a Monster of the Week. The Jewel Seeds don't have the "in-built temptation for ultimate power" that the Shikon Jewel has; the idea that this mutating power could potentially be harnessed for one's own agenda isn't going to easily occur to anyone else.

Now, there's still a chance that a Youma or Onogoran mage might stumble across one, but I doubt anyone knows enough to try and actively hunt them down.
Do you think we might benefit from delegating the task to a group of competent and discreet but previously unknown individuals who would probably not be immediately traced to us? :p

(i.e.: provide some behind-the-scenes support to Yuuno and Nanoha, but ultimately have them be the ones going out and collecting them, at least until Fate and the TSAB show up)

EDIT: Not because doing it ourselves would be bad, but to avoid tipping people off about their importance.
 
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Plot twist: The Shikon Jewel turns out to be a Jewel Seed the feel down the Bone Eater Well.
Despite the tangles, I think I understand the timeline enough to see that this doesn't work? Bone Eater Well doesn't, in our time, lead to early enough for something that falls through now to end up being the Shikon Jewel.
 
Do you think we might benefit from delegating the task to a group of competent and discreet but previously unknown individuals who would probably not be immediately traced to us? :p

(i.e.: provide some behind-the-scenes support to Yuuno and Nanoha, but ultimately have them be the ones going out and collecting them, at least until Fate and the TSAB show up)

That would probably be wise, since it's unclear whether the Senshi (or any other magic group) has the means to properly seal the Jewel Seeds like the Intelligent Devices can. The Seeds are Lost Logia, a.k.a. ancient magitech which has lost its instruction manual, so there's a chance that the Senshi lack the means to keep it safely contained even if they wanted to.
 
How can we save her from that fate when we can't even save ourself? Taking her cues from Sailor Moon senpai is probably going to make her issues even worse somehow.

Our only hope is that the massive community of Pretty Cures will form a formidable enough support network to save both of us.

Nanoha will have what someone described earlier as an "Uncle Ben Moment". The giant tree incident Lunaryon mentioned was result of her finding a Jewel Seed that hadn't activated yet but doesn't seal it because she was trying to take a day off at Yuuno's behest. Her whole take away from that is bad things happen if she's not working herself to the bone.

IIRC, she even goes so far as to start having Raising Heart constantly running training drills and combat simulations while she's in school and even hanging out with her friends.
 
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Nanoha will have what someone described earlier as an "Uncle Ben Moment". The giant tree incident Lunaryon mentioned was result of her finding a Jewel Seed that hadn't activated yet but doesn't seal it because she was trying to take a day off at Yuuno's behest. Her whole take away from that is bad things happen if she's not working herself to the bone.

IIRC, she even goes so far as to start having Raising Heart constantly running training drills and combat simulations while she's in school and even hanging out with her friends.
Encountering other people both trustworthy enough and capable of handling something like the Jewel Seeds is likely to butterfly away that particular incident. Though Nanoha's overall tendency to overwork and constantly train probably will probably only go down a couple of notches.
 
Pretty sure Mid-Childen devices actually respond in English, or some variation thereof.
The Symphogear XDU Nanoha event I've brought up before does have Hibiki Tachibana(who's somewhat book-dumb) unable to understand Raising Heart IIRC. Presumably something like the Earth default setting for whatever translation uses being set to Graham's native, though that wouldn't explain the Belkan stuff.
 
Pretty sure Mid-Childen devices actually respond in English, or some variation thereof. Could just be an Anime thing, but given Belken devices call in German, and Belken spells tend to have German names...? Might be one of those coincidence things that gets hand-waved away as actually being a distinct language. I still think it'd be neat if they somehow did actually reflect Earth languages given that Un-Administrated World #97 is supposed to be a backwater, and yet all these device languages are reflected in the native languages of some of their major nations.
Pretty sure that Raising Heart is not a Midchidian device. It is a piece of archeotech, and arguably Lost Logia (it has capabilities like the virtual training mode, and initial device form configuration that aren't seen anywhere else in the story). It might well be a Silver Millennium piece of technology, even. The wording of activation chant has "ancient contract" in it.
 
Nanoha will have what someone described earlier as an "Uncle Ben Moment". The giant tree incident Lunaryon mentioned was result of her finding a Jewel Seed that hadn't activated yet but doesn't seal it because she was trying to take a day off at Yuuno's behest. Her whole take away from that is bad things happen if she's not working herself to the bone.

IIRC, she even goes so far as to start having Raising Heart constantly running training drills and combat simulations while she's in school and even hanging out with her friends.
I think she was doing the sims already. Thats why Yuuno tried having her take a break
 
We are a few years too late to stop Nanoha's bad habits. She learned to be more independent and "Ok" cause everyone in her family was busy dealing with her dad being in the hospital.

Nanoha' family might have some connections to the Ministry even without Triangle Hearts, the anime implied that the family business was violent.

Yuuno is gonna have a heart attack when he realises that the senshi are all lost logia.
 
But again, this is piling up to the point where while I could be wrong and you could be right, I don't think it's fair of you to be acting as though my idea is foolish or illogical. It has potential points where someone could nitpick; it's not a bulletproof syllogism of perfect deductive insight. But then, neither is any other explanation we can construct at this time.

I want to throw this up to the top, because you and me have a history.

I'm not trying to call you foolish. I'm not trying to attack you for not having a perfect, unassailable argument. I'm not saying my theories are completely without fault.

What I am doing is approaching the assertions, examining them, and trying to make sense of the information in the context of those assertions. People began defending the idea of the Throne being artificially constructed as though it were "Word of God" and I wanted to point out that that was an assumption, potentially an unfounded one. I'm not attacking you. I'm not trying to tear you down and cast you into the mud. I'm examining the evidence, examining people's proposed theories, and seeing where they don't quite match up.

So please, do not take this personally. Because the more riled up and personal you make this, the less actually useful discussion can be had.

The point is, nothing about the place Beryl's currently camping out sounds like a natural place or a part of the balance of the natural order. It's not just that it's lifeless, it's not just that it's in a weird spatiodimensional fuckery zone, it's both.

This place might be natural because nature is sometimes stranger than we imagine. Or it might have once been natural only for Beryl to corrupt it into a weird Hell-zone that she likes because she's the only one fully equipped to understand its weirdodystopian characteristics.

For example, you are assuming the Throne is connected to the spatial dimension that Beryl is in, while I see the text clearly spelling out that the Throne isn't really in that space. The Spatial Dimension Beryl finds herself in does not seem in any way tied to the Throne, they are separate things. Going forward that the Throne must be unnatural, because the spatial dimension Beryl is in is unnatural ignores the metaphysical aspects of Beryl not literally sitting on the Throne.

My proposed theory about the Spatial Dimension Beryl is in is that this is that Selene used the Silver Crystal to suck in Beryl, Metallia and many of the Youma, creating a magical black hole, that we have seen as the hole in space above Selene's hand in the Lunar Palace. We know the Hole is where the Silver Crystal was, and it would fit as the type of act she might take. It would also explain how Beryl and the Shittenou survived Saturn's attack, they were never in the dimensional space to get hit.


But it might also be synthetic, a product of someone's twisted and malevolent designs, either using an old and now destroyed Throne for parts to build it, or creating something entirely artificial to usurp powers not normally available to human(ish) mages like Beryl (was).

I mean, fine, there could be some kind of Throne of Rock Anima that in the Silver Millennium was occupied by some rock-monster guy or something. I don't know.

But it's divergent enough from what we'd naively suspect to justify exploring alternatives.

I think part of what is frustrating to me about your phrasing here is I don't understand why you are using "naively" as a good thing. Because, I'm not saying that this is the Rock Anima held by some rock-monster. What I am saying is that your expectation of wood and lush jungle life is a strange bias. After all, if Coyote's Throne was to be found in Death Valley in the heart of a desert, would you expect it to be a lush jungle paradise? I wouldn't. Coyote's don't live in Jungles, and deserts aren't where you find Jungles. It would be more unnatural to find that.

Yes, we should explore alternatives, but that also means not dismissing ideas as well. This Throne of stone, ice, and deep waters, with accents of living metal, rubies and sapphires may be completely natural. Not as some weird rock thing, but as an expression of a natural area of stone, ice and water with mineral resources.


"Beryl used her keen understanding of the Anima Thrones and her swarm of loyal mind-controlled Shamans to build a synthetic mockery of an Anima Throne and use it to wrongfully usurp the power and mantle of one of the real Anima Thrones" would not be surprising.

And as you yourself pointed out, Endymion went to all the Anima Thrones he knew about. Since Beryl didn't take the convenient opportunity to snap up her mysteriously resurrected grooming victim, it seems likely that Endymion didn't visit the place Beryl is camped out.

So if this throne is, as you speculate, a 'normal' Throne but of something other than the Anima thrones, it seems likely that Endymion didn't know about it, because for some reason he did not go looking for it on his world grand tour. Since Endymion seems fairly knowledgeable about pre-Fall Earth, that in turn suggests that some other, seemingly less likely origin story would have to explain this Throne's presence. It would have to have been hidden from Endymion but not from Beryl, or have to have arisen after the Fall, or something.

Sure, it wouldn't be surprising if she, theoretically, had made a false throne to usurp the power of a real Throne. But that isn't what is being described. Naru can tell by looking that Beryl isn't supposed to be on this Throne. If the Throne itself were false, then she would likely describe something parasitic on the Throne instead.

My biggest issue with this being a Throne Beryl constructed is the issue of why she doesn't fit the Throne. Naru does have the power of life, so maybe this is unfair, but she has specifically realized she could create a lifeform that would fit the Throne. She has also realized that she has met someone or something that would fit the Throne. Beryl was able to build a Throne, twist life in the form of the Youma, but has been incapable of fitting herself or something else into the Throne? That doesn't sound right to me. The descriptive language is not giving the feel of an unnatural Throne held by an unnatural being, or a parasitic Throne taking over for a natural throne. The language is very much pointing to a natural Throne usurped and occupied improperly.

Now, as for why Endymion didn't come to this Throne, as you said, there are some theories. The first is that this isn't an Anima throne, but something else. Considering how close it is to the sign of Sol, and we know that the Earth is protected by Sol somehow, I'm fully willing to accept that theory. It is also possible that since Beryl and the Shamans were the only people to normally visit the Thrones as part of their diplomatic missions, that they kept one secret. It is certainly not impossible that Marduk and Beryl worked together to keep a royal secret from Endymion "until he was ready".

After all, consider, we have zero evidence that Serenity knew about the Anima. These Thrones might have been secrets from most people.



We've had it theorized that the World Tree may be a thing that has many instances in many different places on Earth. That would make sense in a way; we know the Norse, for instance, believed that the World Tree connected multiple worlds.

Now, the Norse didn't know that much about geography beyond their immediate region. And the only thing that might reasonably be mistaken for a "World Tree that grants access to other realms" is in Japan, somewhere nowhere near the Norse. Which doesn't mean that, I dunno, Odin couldn't get tipsy and tell some skald about it. But it does suggest the plausible hypothesis that there are many instances of 'the World Tree,' all of them somehow connected, that the Norse knew one of them, and that Beryl's throne (be it an Anima Throne, a synthetic knockoff of such, or something else entirely) could somehow be connected to an instance- either the same one or a different one.

Endymion might have visited one or more instances of Yggdrasil, but not all of them- perhaps because he thought he could learn everything he needed to know at that one instance, and save himself a lot of trouble.

Possible. Though, we really don't need the Norse involved in this at all. Heck, guarantee that Odin knew more about the world than just northern Europe. I'd also posit that we do not know where Yggdrasil or the Rainbow Tree are. Our only clue is a floating island, nothing says that floating island is stationary near Japan.
 
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