- Location
- Gainful Employment
- Pronouns
- He/They
I do remember that point being brought up a while ago, I think the conclusion people reached was that Vivio is Sailor Belka?
Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They had to go. Their planet needed them.
Almech_Alfarion
(Unverified Paradox)
- Location
- Roaming the Void of the Space between Spaces
You appear to be correct. On the other hand, Raising Heart's hardware and software appears to be similar enough to Bardish, a device distinctly created in the "Midchildin" style and explicitly said to have been built by Fate, where the STAB techs were familiar enough with her form factor to not raise eyebrows during maintenance. So, either the specific class of Archeo-Tech ID Raising Heart belongs to has already been reverse engineered enough by the STAB where they have adopted it as their own, or there's time shenanigans going on. A distinct possibility given one of her best friends is apparently Kore's Post-Fall reincarnation and our generation's future Sailor Pluto.
And Sailor Midchilda might still be caught in their reincarnation/pre-manifestation cycle. It could be that one of the reasons Midchilda survived as intact as it did is it was a colony world, so it's population was "young", and Senshi seem to trend to manifestation on "Older"/more magically developed worlds, so its Senshi may have not yet manifested.
Just had a mildly terrifying thought: Takamachi Nanoha: Sailor Midchilda...
There's a small amount of evidence that Raising Heart's appearance was chosen by Nanoha during first activation of the device. It's plausible that Raising Heart only configured itself to Midchidian style because that was the style most likely to be useful to Nanoha / style known to Yuuno.
Also, Bardich was made by Prescia's familiar, if I recall correctly. Prescia was an Al-Hazard researcher. It's possible that Bardich utilized some of that research in its construction.
But I find the first hypothesis more likely.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I just rewatched the season some months ago and I don't specifically remember the drills and simulations you're talking about. But her starting to overcompensate and overtrain? That happened.
Almech_Alfarion
(Unverified Paradox)
- Location
- Roaming the Void of the Space between Spaces
Possibly, but I find it unlikely unless Raising Heart is sandbagging harder than she's ever let on.
In Strikers we see several more examples of ID's of similar capabilities to her, Bardish and the Wolkenritter's devices, all built by the STAB, so we know that modern examples are capable of at least parity, and if Raising Heart had that sort of auto-customized manifestation capability then she wouldn't have needed the STAB techs to upgrade her as extensively over the years.
It's why I find it more likely that her classification of ID Archeo-Tech has already been successfully reverse engineered, and may have even been one of the technologies that Midchilda never lost in Belka's fall.
As for the rest, you appear to be correct on Bardish's origin. I appear to not be as familiar with early Nanoha lore as I thought. I should probably quit while I'm behind, but I will say that I doubt Rynith would have incorporated much of Presea's research into Bardish, if any, given that she was more or less going behind Presea's back with everything she did for Fate that wasn't strictly limited to her duties as Fate's nanny/caretaker.
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Even if it was reverse-engineered (quite possible), not all of its functionality was - the VR training mode it uses for Nanoha in the early series is a unique feature, as far as I recall.
I once read a theory that Raising Heart could have been a guerilla weapon / a weapon designed to quickly raise shock troopers from native population. It's meant for someone powerful, but completely untrained and without support structures. You could insert it into a populated occupied / hostile planet, and have a native pick it up, sign the "ancient contract" and it'd train said native to be a full combat mage operating behind enemy lines.
As to sandbagging - the fluidity of (initial) form doesn't necessarily mean that the other (non midchidian style) forms would be more powerful.
And, of course, this all assumes that Raising Heart is fully functional from the specs its ancient creators made. Or that the full functionality isn't locked behind fulfilling the clauses of the aforementioned "ancient contract" which we never hear more about after the first episode. For all we know, Nanoha needed to sacrifice a hundred goats to Cthulhu, or report to Al-Hazard recruitment center #943 for the higher tier functions to be unlocked, which she never did.
They're physical attack based. More likely related to Nerimans
The Saint's Cradle has an interdimensional main gun powered by all three moons of Mid-childa, which stubbornly refuses to work at all for anyone but the clone of the Sankt Kaiser, accessed through a crystal embedded in her soul.
It goes into more depth in the mangas and sound stages. In the anime it was like...5 minutes total?
Bardiche was hand built using Precia's technology and contains capabilities not found in other devices such as self repair capable of restoring from a broken in two state.
Wolkenritter devices are summoned along with them as part of their summoning template. Shamal is also a technician for the bits that aren't in the package, and later serves as advisor for helping make Vivio and Einhart's devices that can interface with their Belkan Superweapon genetics.
As an aside, Chrono's staff Song to You is TSAB standard, but his later upgrade Durandal is not.
There are in short a number of similar devices floating around that the TSAB cannot replicate. They aren't strictly speaking Lost Logia however, as they work on similar enough principles that they can be serviced reliably.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Sailor Belka keeps dying and coming back much to everyone's surprise despite the fact that it keeps happening and everyone should know better by now.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, I do appreciate you trying to lean against the tendency.
My own equivalent statement to you is "please remember that something in your tone does this to people, it's not just them being touchy." I can accept your assurance that you aren't trying to take potshots at me. But remember, your earlier words to me, which I took exception to, were:
And the only "evidence" for an artificial Throne is... incredibly weak and unfounded... It assumes the Throne held by a demigod would just... a normal dirt cave or something, becuase the Demigod in question is "merely" an animal.
Now, again, I'm taking your word, but I hope you understand how a man could have read those words and felt that you were crossing the line from civil disagreement in which people respect each other's intelligence, into less wholesome forms of discussion.
The language that describes how the Throne is confusing is very similar to the language that describes how the spatial dimension itself is confusing. It is theoretically possible that the Throne being visible in the vision is only a metaphor and Beryl keeps it somewhere else besides the place she actually sits. Then again, it might not be. It would be something of a deviation from expectations if Naru's vision twice showed Beryl in the company of an object that wasn't in the "room" with her, though such a thing is possible.
Because of college math professors, I suppose. Specifically, the "naive" version of an understanding or explanation in that context tends to be simplified, but may well point towards truth in many cases. Even if it doesn't rigorously consider all the possible edge cases and special cases. Even if to have a truly 100% ironclad argument, one would need to go back and apply this rigor. If something passes a basic, simplistic sniff test, it is sometimes a sign that it merits further investigation, and importantly, if it does not pass that 'naive' sniff test, then while it may be correct anyway, the odds are less favorable.
"Naive" does not automatically mean "absolutely wrong about everything." That goes double in a magical girl setting.
It is not impossible that a naturally occurring Anima Throne could look like this. But the total absence of signs of normal life and, importantly, earthliness (ice, stone, metal, and jewels are not unique to the Earth), combined with the at least superficial fact that the Throne is located in a particularly unearthly place, do at least raise some question as to whether it is a thing indigenous to the Earth.
There's something to that.
Personally, I could easily imagine Beryl constructing an artificial Throne that, given that we have very little information on what Thrones do or how they work, would still be functional... Except that Beryl herself is manifestly unfit for it, and Naru can easily think of, or for that matter make, a worthier candidate. Note that while I have said the Throne looks as though it might be a constructed or alien thing, I have not said it is an inimical or parasitic thing in and of itself.
...
One possibility is that this is not one of the Anima Thrones, but rather the magical throne of the Earth itself. If this Throne belonged to Marduk and his forefathers, that would go a long way to explain why it doesn't look integrated into nature. Either because it might be a made thing from some distant past era, or because it might 'naturally' have come to symbolically represent the fact that man exists partway between the natural and artificial worlds.
And Naru has met Endymion, so that would be an obvious reason why she's sure she can think of someone better suited to sit this Throne.
Now, Marduk's throne room almost certainly wasn't in the middle of a bizarre spatially shattered pocket dimension back in the day, but that can easily be explained as a result of something Beryl or Selene did.
...
On an unrelated note, your speculation as to the origins of the hole in space above Selene's hand is... Interesting. And here, I'd thought that the hole was simply where the Silver Crystal 'snipped' itself out of Euclidean space and went elsewhere. I'd interpreted it as proof Selene didn't die holding it in her hand, the way she would if it had just been a literal rock, and no more. But it didn't occur to me to see it as proof of anything else about what did or did not happen to Beryl, the Shitennou (classically one 't' and two 'n's), or anything else.
Usagi: "Um, excuse me, but we are very much found. We know exactly where we are!"
I was going to say I definitely remember the simulation thing despite it being years since I watched it but then I started doubting it wasn't something later or possibly in a fanfic.
I know she juggled cans by hitting them with magic and that took a lot of concentration and mental math.
RadiantPhoenix
Trudging up the Hill
- Location
- USA, Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This cracked me up, and I felt that I needed to quote it to say that, in case someone misunderstood which part of your post I was rating as funny.
wingnut2292
<Verified Sugar Addict>
- Location
- Milwaukee Metro
Imagine if Nanoha teaches the Senshi how to adapt the Divine Buster into their own magic?
Mercury: Snow Buster - an avalanche wave of snow and ice. Anti-mook.
Zero Buster - everything in the bean's path is exposed to the mean temperature of space, about 3°K. Anti-structure
Venus: Flash Buster - Mina charges a Cresent Beam and keeps charging it. The beam is roughly 500 KLux +/- 200 KLux. Anti-sense (Vision).
Chain Buster - So many, too many Love-Me Chains, upto a Kilometer in length. The world is a canvas, make something beautiful. Anti-mook, Environment/Battlefield Manipulation.
Mars: Fire Snake Buster - Massive gout of very hot fire. Rei can bend the path of the gout as long as the attack doesn't cross itself. Use against the undead and anything else that needs to be killed with fire. Anti-unliving, anti-armor, Environmental/Battlefield Manipulation.
Nitro Buster - Sooo... who asked for the 3-5m wide explosive fireball? Anti-structure, Anti-armor
Jupiter: Aruoua Buster - a tall winding curtain of charged particles glowing like a neon light. Very hot, tears up shields and barriers. Anti-mook, Anti-armor, Anti-shields
Gravity Buster - everything in the beam is subject to extreme gravity and gets crushed. Not quite into a black hole, but making momentary EDM is possible. Anti-structure, Anti-armour.
Moon: Restoration Buster - beam has the following spell-like effects in order, Magic Circle vs Evil, Turn Undead/Channel Energy (Positive), Break Enchantment, Break Curse, Atonement, Banishment, Mass Restoration, Mass Repair Object Anti-Evil, Anti-Death
Moonlight Banishment Buster - Targets in the beam glow slowly, as they seem to disassemble themselves in streaming trails of dust. Anti-everything / Baleful Teleport.
Shoot, the Senshi are downright scarry with Buster-class spells.
Mercury: Snow Buster - an avalanche wave of snow and ice. Anti-mook.
Zero Buster - everything in the bean's path is exposed to the mean temperature of space, about 3°K. Anti-structure
Venus: Flash Buster - Mina charges a Cresent Beam and keeps charging it. The beam is roughly 500 KLux +/- 200 KLux. Anti-sense (Vision).
Chain Buster - So many, too many Love-Me Chains, upto a Kilometer in length. The world is a canvas, make something beautiful. Anti-mook, Environment/Battlefield Manipulation.
Mars: Fire Snake Buster - Massive gout of very hot fire. Rei can bend the path of the gout as long as the attack doesn't cross itself. Use against the undead and anything else that needs to be killed with fire. Anti-unliving, anti-armor, Environmental/Battlefield Manipulation.
Nitro Buster - Sooo... who asked for the 3-5m wide explosive fireball? Anti-structure, Anti-armor
Jupiter: Aruoua Buster - a tall winding curtain of charged particles glowing like a neon light. Very hot, tears up shields and barriers. Anti-mook, Anti-armor, Anti-shields
Gravity Buster - everything in the beam is subject to extreme gravity and gets crushed. Not quite into a black hole, but making momentary EDM is possible. Anti-structure, Anti-armour.
Moon: Restoration Buster - beam has the following spell-like effects in order, Magic Circle vs Evil, Turn Undead/Channel Energy (Positive), Break Enchantment, Break Curse, Atonement, Banishment, Mass Restoration, Mass Repair Object Anti-Evil, Anti-Death
Moonlight Banishment Buster - Targets in the beam glow slowly, as they seem to disassemble themselves in streaming trails of dust. Anti-everything / Baleful Teleport.
Shoot, the Senshi are downright scarry with Buster-class spells.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Good question. Given the nature of the Warring States period that destroyed the Belkan Empire, if there ever was a Sailor Belka, she's probably dead. And it's entirely possible that the planet itself has been destroyed, in which case any surviving Sailor Belka would be either killed or rendered powerless in that moment.
If there is a Sailor Midchilda, she probably camps out on Midchilda proper to secure it against random crap like, oh, robot Belkan battleships showing up and dropping killbots and cyborgs on everybody for some stupid reason. It's a pretty dangerous setting even in the rear areas, so having Senshi-level protection for your homeworld matters.
Note that given that Midchildan civilization is 'young' and that there was a very recent round of omni-warfare that apparently affected Midchilda too, it is fairly likely that the current Sailor Midchilda (if there is one) might not have reached a "fully realized" form of her abilities. After all, she would not necessarily have the benefit of being the direct reincarnation with access to subconscious memories of her predecessor, any more than Setsuna has Kóre's memories.
Come to think of it, that could serve as a summary of both the things I just said.
In Sailor Midchilda's case, it's a job description and what she does all day.
In Sailor Belka's case, it's an epitaph.
Actually, when I have a joke in a post along with a bunch of other stuff, I often deliberately put the joke last for exactly this reason- because it makes it more obvious why people are giving me 'Funny' votes and generally removes that potential source of tension.
Who's to say we don't have our own?Shoot, the Senshi are downright scarry with Buster-class spells.
Sailor Venus has Crescent Beam; Sailor Moon has that and "Moon Sparkling Sensation." Both are already giant magic lasers and we have no reason to assume either has any tactically relevant range limitations. Sailor Mercury already has Mercury Aurora Cannon, one of her 'weather' spells. Rei's first act on awakening was to zorch a youma with a plasma cannon spell she doesn't have in canon ("Burning Spear"). Sailor Jupiter's canonical first spell is Supreme Thunder, which is functionally a pretty badass zap; I believe she uses it at least once in anime canon for a "we need a door where that wall is" scene.
- Location
- Finland
I'm pretty sure any of the senshi, now freed from the constraints of stock animation or limited page count, are more than capable of coming up with their own versions of "hit a thing real hard from a distance" spell if they feel the need for one.
Also the current Nanoha is probably not at a level where she could start training people, even people as inexperienced as the Senshi.
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As for Sailor Belka et all, there might not be one, either currently, or at all.
Our Solar system went a long time with no senshi, so just having the ability to have a senshi might not mean there is one.
Also the current Nanoha is probably not at a level where she could start training people, even people as inexperienced as the Senshi.
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As for Sailor Belka et all, there might not be one, either currently, or at all.
Our Solar system went a long time with no senshi, so just having the ability to have a senshi might not mean there is one.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think that rather than using Divine Buster, senshi would be better off following their already powerfull attacks with Starlight Breaker, so as to make use of freshly mana-enriched environment. Or having Nanoha do that for them.Imagine if Nanoha teaches the Senshi how to adapt the Divine Buster into their own magic?
Mercury: Snow Buster - an avalanche wave of snow and ice. Anti-mook.
Zero Buster - everything in the bean's path is exposed to the mean temperature of space, about 3°K. Anti-structure
Venus: Flash Buster - Mina charges a Cresent Beam and keeps charging it. The beam is roughly 500 KLux +/- 200 KLux. Anti-sense (Vision).
Chain Buster - So many, too many Love-Me Chains, upto a Kilometer in length. The world is a canvas, make something beautiful. Anti-mook, Environment/Battlefield Manipulation.
Mars: Fire Snake Buster - Massive gout of very hot fire. Rei can bend the path of the gout as long as the attack doesn't cross itself. Use against the undead and anything else that needs to be killed with fire. Anti-unliving, anti-armor, Environmental/Battlefield Manipulation.
Nitro Buster - Sooo... who asked for the 3-5m wide explosive fireball? Anti-structure, Anti-armor
Jupiter: Aruoua Buster - a tall winding curtain of charged particles glowing like a neon light. Very hot, tears up shields and barriers. Anti-mook, Anti-armor, Anti-shields
Gravity Buster - everything in the beam is subject to extreme gravity and gets crushed. Not quite into a black hole, but making momentary is possible. Anti-structure, Anti-armour.
Moon: Restoration Buster - beam has the following spell-like effects in order, Magic Circle vs Evil, Turn Undead/Channel Energy (Positive), Break Enchantment, Break Curse, Atonement, Banishment, Mass Restoration, Mass Repair Object Anti-Evil, Anti-Death
Moonlight Banishment Buster - Targets in the beam glow slowly, as they seem to disassemble themselves in streaming trails of dust. Anti-everything / Baleful Teleport.
Shoot, the Senshi are downright scarry with Buster-class spells.
The presence / absence of (fully realized) senshi is recorded TSAB history would probably majorly change Nanoha's plot. If TSAB knows what a senshi is (essentially, BOLO in a miniskirt), than a presence of seven active, if only newly reactivated senshi on a single planet would strongly influence their interactions. If the senshi are unknown or relegated to myth, that's a different story.
Nanoha improvised it from the Sealing Spell that Raising Heart had preloaded it with, I think.
As of current time, Nanoha had 4 spells:
-Protection(preloaded)
-Jewel Seed Seal(preloaded)
-Barrier Jacket(preloaded)
-Divine Shooter(elementary mana manipulation mainly used to practice mana control)
During the Tree Episode:
-She LIKELY modified Divine Shooter into Wide Area Search, removing the damaging component and improving the sensory element needed to direct a guided missile into a full scrying sensor drone.
-She LIKELY modified Jewel Seed Seal into Divine Buster, due to visual similarities, and her using the spell to seal the Jewel Seed from long range, after finding it impossible to get close to the core without some kind of penetrating artillery.
She then adds Flash Move and Flash Impact after fighting Fate...which look pretty much like she just adapted her family fighting style for it, since its exactly how her family fights.
Nanoha is like a Naruto character who just yeeted everything into Chakra control then used that for everything she does.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think that for Senshi, "fuckit, just throw more energy" is the better choice.
Nanoha uses something like Starlight Breaker because she needs to hit really hard but doesn't have a metaphorical thermonuclear reactor wired into her soul, just an unusually robust and healthy but human Linker Core. It's compensating for limitations that Senshi, as a rule, simply don't have.
Almech_Alfarion
(Unverified Paradox)
- Location
- Roaming the Void of the Space between Spaces
If the initial form were so fluid, I would think any further alternate adaptations would be simpler for her to incorporate into her form.
ID's are physically basically supercomputers that use dimensional fuckery to store all their hardware bits so their exterior forms can be constructed however the user desires, but that exterior form is still hardware. The hardware has to physically exist, even if the grand majority of it is tucked away in non-euclidean spaces. A capability to assume any initial startup form would suggest a capacity for material synthesis and manufacture that is simply never seen, even if you take into account the self-repair features, which are much slower. (And self repair functions seem to be fairly standard for ID's across the series. More on this later down)
As for full functionality, I believe one of Nanoha's early achievements in her use of Raising Heart was when she Jailbroke the activation pass-code, because Raising Heart really likes her. Once she meets up with the STAB and has Raising Heart examined by their techs for maintenance, they treat it less as ferriting out the secrets of the device, and more like a custom gunsmith examining another custom gunsmith's work. Noteworthy, but still mostly routine, and there is no mention of "hidden" features in the device that would make Nanoha even more "thuper thpethial" than she already is as Anime tend to do, even years later after no doubt countless maintenance examinations in the later series'. If these hypothetical hidden features exist, they're buried so deep even the laws of anime can't find them.
Self repair seems to actually be a fairly standard feature in ID's from what ICR, given the STAB techs don't really make any comment on them when they get their hands on both Raising Heart and Bardish in S1, and the entire A's series was about one malfunctioning. Bad examples, probably, given the nature of this discussion, but to my knowledge no other devices in the series' are ever quite so badly damaged as we see happen in A's.
Also, while Bardish could have healed from that particular break, it would have taken months to do on his own, and it was during the repair process via the STAB techs that both he and Raising Heart requested incorporation of the cartridge system into their hardware, making them probably some of if not the first Midchildin/Belken hybrid devices.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
But think about how much more powerful infinity focused is than infinity!
Lunaryon
Dual Aurora Wave
- Pronouns
- She/Her
One thing to remember is that the Breaker spells are in fact Nanoha's method of cheating the system, as she developed a formula that allows her to suck up the ambient left over used mana from the spells that are cast throughout the battle and then uses that as the power for the breaker spells, thus the spell is stronger the longer the battle goes on, and the more combatants that are involved.
Which also equally means that it is stronger the weaker the enemy is, because if they are exhausted then they have used a lot of mana.
Which also equally means that it is stronger the weaker the enemy is, because if they are exhausted then they have used a lot of mana.
Almech_Alfarion
(Unverified Paradox)
- Location
- Roaming the Void of the Space between Spaces
For those less familiar with Nanoha but know Ranma 1/2, it's the magical equivalent of the Hiryu Shoten Ha.
Is there a limit on how much power it can take or could you intentionally push seven senshi worth of mana into the spell for a really big gun?
Just for future reference.